Demb diffuser vs. Lightsphere

Girevik · November 14, 2006

Hello all. I'm new here and am looking for some info. My birthday is coming up and I I'm going to ask for a diffuser for my Nikon SB600. I was leaning twoards the Lightsphere II until someone pointed the Demb diffuser out to me. Now I'm leaning twoards the Demb.

Basically I'm looking for either confimation of my decision, or reasons I should go with the LS instead. Are there reasons to choose one over the other? What are the pros and cons?

Basically from poking around on forums, it seems that both have thier fans and to a really good job. That the Demb seems to be smaller and easier to use is kind of my tie breaker. The fact that it's cheaper doesn't hurt it's cause either.

ziggy53 · November 14, 2006

I don't own either, so I feel somewhat free to speak to what "I believe" are the differences, and to mention an alternative.

Both the LightSpere (LS) and the Demb are useful and different from each other. Neither is perfect in covering every situation.

The LS is designed to fit a specific head size, and some flash heads may not properly hold position because of the weight of the LS (especially with the diffusor attached.)

The LS appears to work best in conjunction with a relatively low ceiling in bounce configuration. The LS also has a diffuser so it can be used with the light aimed forward.

The Demb is more adaptable to different flash heads, and is much more compact by design. It is more of a "reflector" unless you also get the diffusion device which attaches to the front. It is more adjustable by nature and can provide a fill configuration for low white ceilings, or almost all light forward for high ceilings and outdoors. The "size" of the light is somewhat less than the LS.

Another type of light modifier, commonly used, is a reflector and/or scoop. A scoop has the advantage that it can position the light higher and without regard for ceiling.

An example is:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=Search&A=details&Q=&sku=32576&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

You can build a more advanced version yourself:

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

All of these are valid under different circumstances, depending on:

Ceiling height and color
Distance to a wall and its color
Usage outdoors
Type of flash unit and orientation
Size of flash head
Bracket usage
etc.

If you describe more about your equipment and how you intend to use the light modifier, we can probably be more specific in recommendations.

ziggy53

Girevik · November 14, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

If you describe more about your equipment and how you intend to use the light modifier, we can probably be more specific in recommendations.

ziggy53

I have a Nikon D70 with the SB600 flash (I think the Lightsphere will fit it well). Right now most of my pictures are just shots of the kids (but I'd like to branch out). so I'm looking for something that right now would probably used as a fill flash outside or primary flash inside without leaving harsh shadows. Right now I guess I'm just looking for the most versitile option, since I'm not looking to buy a lot of different options right now.

ziggy53 · November 14, 2006

Girevik wrote:

I have a Nikon D70 with the SB600 flash (I think the Lightsphere will fit it well). Right now most of my pictures are just shots of the kids (but I'd like to branch out). so I'm looking for something that right now would probably used as a fill flash outside or primary flash inside without leaving harsh shadows. Right now I guess I'm just looking for the most versitile option, since I'm not looking to buy a lot of different options right now.

OK. It looks like the D70 can be used in "commander mode" to allow slaving the SB600. That's good because it allows you to take the flash off-camera and use it without cords.

I think either the LS or the Demb Flip-it will give you the capability to bounce the flash, on camera or off, with fill. Either will improve over simple on-camera, forward flash.

Be aware, that you can simply point the flash up at a light ceiling (bounce configuration) and rubber-band a white business card to the flash head to provide some fill. This is about as cheap as it gets, and it's pretty effective as well.

Another thing to try, is rotating the flash head to point behind and up into the corner, where the ceiling meets the wall, or even where two walls meet. It gives a very nice, soft light, used with light colored surfaces of course. (You might even try the panel diffuser for small rooms.)

Building the scoop I mentioned previously works well outdoors, but if you're only using the flash for fill, direct flash works pretty well if you bring the flash output down to 2/3 or 1 stop under the ambient light.

ziggy53

photocat · November 14, 2006

I am using the Gary Fong Lightsphere on my Nikon SB800, and have splendid results with it...
I would never want to go back to other diffusers. Given, it looks odd, most people think I have a tupperware pot on my camera, but hey, it works...
I bought mine over the internet, and have been a happy flasher ever since.
(Before, I hated flash photography)

ziggy53 · November 14, 2006

A fairly nice comparison is here:

http://www.the-meissners.org/2006-small-albums/2006-flashmod/index.html

ziggy53

Girevik · November 14, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

OK. It looks like the D70 can be used in "commander mode" to allow slaving the SB600. That's good because it allows you to take the flash off-camera and use it without cords.

I think either the LS or the Demb Flip-it will give you the capability to bounce the flash, on camera or off, with fill. Either will improve over simple on-camera, forward flash.

Be aware, that you can simply point the flash up at a light ceiling (bounce configuration) and rubber-band a white business card to the flash head to provide some fill. This is about as cheap as it gets, and it's pretty effective as well.

Another thing to try, is rotating the flash head to point behind and up into the corner, where the ceiling meets the wall, or even where two walls meet. It gives a very nice, soft light, used with light colored surfaces of course. (You might even try the panel diffuser for small rooms.)

Building the scoop I mentioned previously works well outdoors, but if you're only using the flash for fill, direct flash works pretty well if you bring the flash output down to 2/3 or 1 stop under the ambient light.

ziggy53

Yes, the flash will work remotely. I've messed with it a little bit but I'm not sure I know how to use it correctly.

I've also used the index card method, but have in in situations where I've either been outside or somewhere with a very high celing where that's not a very effective soluion. I'm looking for something a bit more versitile.

ziggy53 wrote:

A fairly nice comparison is here:

http://www.the-meissners.org/2006-small-albums/2006-flashmod/index.html

ziggy53

Thanks, I saw that. It seems he's only using the "flip it" bounce card, though, and not using the diffuser part (I think that may be a more recent addition). It seems to me (and I could be way off base), that it's the diifuser attachment that makes the Demb comperable to the Lightshpere. I'm not sure that comparing just the bounce card with the LS is 100% apples-to-apples.

ziggy53 · November 14, 2006

Girevik wrote:

... I've also used the index card method, but have in in situations where I've either been outside or somewhere with a very high celing where that's not a very effective soluion. I'm looking for something a bit more versitile.

...

For outdoor use, I highly recommend both a bracket and a scoop to lift the light and give a "butterfly" type lighting, if the flash is to be dominant.

If using the flash as fill, neither is required. Sometimes the built-in flash is even sufficient.

Girevik wrote:

... Thanks, I saw that. It seems he's only using the "flip it" bounce card, though, and not using the diffuser part (I think that may be a more recent addition). It seems to me (and I could be way off base), that it's the diifuser attachment that makes the Demb comperable to the Lightshpere. I'm not sure that comparing just the bounce card with the LS is 100% apples-to-apples.

If there is much distance between flash and subject, the Demb with diffuser is going to be the smaller source (harder shadows), but it will be much more light than the LS, which has a design to spread the light faster.

It all depends on what you want to accomplish.

This is direct fill (complicated a bit by the cap)

This is a bounce into a high ceiling, with a fairly large improvised reflector fill (ISO 1600):

ziggy53

Scott_Quier · November 15, 2006

I've posted this in another thread, but I really like it for what I think is very nice light. This is probably my most successful image captured with the LSII. Equipment used: Canon 20D (shooting RAW), Sigma 500 DG Super, Tamron 28-75 f/2.8, and, of course, the LSII. The flash was pointed straight up to bounce off the ceiling (so I had to work the WB in PP):

As you can see, this was at a wedding reception. What you don't see is that this reception hall was as dark as a cave. The LSII lit it up quite nicely.

Richard · November 15, 2006

Scott_Quier wrote:

I've posted this in another thread, but I really like it for what I think is very nice light. This is probably my most successful image captured with the LSII. Equipment used: Canon 20D (shooting RAW), Sigma 500 DG Super, Tamron 28-75 f/2.8, and, of course, the LSII. The flash was pointed straight up to bounce off the ceiling (so I had to work the WB in PP):

As you can see, this was at a wedding reception. What you don't see is that this reception hall was as dark as a cave. The LSII lit it up quite nicely.

Yes, I have seen that shot before. The exposure looks very good. Can you provide a link to the EXIF? In particular, I was wondering what shooting mode you were using, shutter speed and aperture.

Thanks,

Girevik · November 15, 2006

Basically what I'm getting is that people are pretty happy with whatever choice they've choses, so I probably can't go wrong either way. I'll probably just go with the Demb because it's cheaper and looks easier to carry (last chance to talk me into something else!!!).

ziggy53 · November 15, 2006

Understand that I am not saying "don't buy the LightSphere". (Double negative intentional. All of my English teachers are rolling ...)

Under the right circumstances, the LS does a wonderful job, and it can easily pay for itself in a single paying job. It's just not the panacea that Gary Fong would like you to believe.

There are many circumstances when other devices will do better, and many of those can be fabricated for pennies.

A great single example is this recent thread:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=423660#post423660

Everyone should build one of these just to prove how amazingly simple it is to improve on the basic flash design.

ziggy53

Seefutlung · November 15, 2006

There is also a Sto-Fen diffuser for $20. Works well, just snaps on the flash head and doesn't add much bulk to the flash.

Some candid snaps using the Sto-Fen of Halloween Trick-or-Treaters can be found here. All shots were taken at the front door, nighttime stuff with no set-up for the shots.

http://garyayala.smugmug.com/gallery/2115074

109321815-M.jpg

Seefutlung · November 15, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

Understand that I am not saying "don't buy the LightSphere". (Double negative intentional. All of my English teachers are rolling ...)

Under the right circumstances, the LS does a wonderful job, and it can easily pay for itself in a single paying job. It's just not the panacea that Gary Fong would like you to believe.

There are many circumstances when other devices will do better, and many of those can be fabricated for pennies.
... ziggy53

Ziggy is right ... there isn't any magic to soften and spread out light. When I was doing news sometimes I would just bounce the light off my hand ... and it worked ... a bit awkward in application ... but it worked in a pinch.

Gary

ziggy53 · November 15, 2006

Seefutlung wrote:

Ziggy is right ... there isn't any magic to soften and spread out light. When I was doing news sometimes I would just bounce the light off my hand ... and it worked ... a bit awkward in application ... but it worked in a pinch.

Gary

"... I would just bounce the light off my hand ..."

I've done that too, and hand-held both a potato-masher flash in the left with a TLR in the right. You do what you gotta do.

ziggy53

Seefutlung · November 15, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

"... I would just bounce the light off my hand ..."

I've done that too, and hand-held both a potato-masher flash in the left with a TLR in the right. You do what you gotta do.

ziggy53

Gawd ... not a Metz???? That would burn off all the hair on your hand.

-G-

ziggy53 · November 15, 2006

Seefutlung wrote:

Gawd ... not a Metz???? That would burn off all the hair on your hand.

-G-

Rollei E36RE, GN 82 Meters, GN 250 feet! I did wonder about exposure to the flash.

That thing was so powerful, I could zap flies caught between the two panes of window glass.

If you put the head against black vinyl, you could make smoke eminate from the vinyl and leave a latent image of the flash.

I miss it soooo much.:cry

ziggy53

Girevik · November 15, 2006

Seefutlung wrote:

sometimes I would just bounce the light off my handGary

Yeah, I've done the same thing myself.

Girevik · November 15, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

Understand that I am not saying "don't buy the LightSphere". (Double negative intentional. All of my English teachers are rolling ...)

But I'm leaning towards the Demb. Are you saying "don't by the Demb"?

ziggy53 wrote:

A great single example is this recent thread:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=423660#post423660

Everyone should build one of these just to prove how amazingly simple it is to improve on the basic flash design.

ziggy53

Is that the same as what's demonstrated at ABetterBounceCard.com? I've seen that, and it looks interesting as well (I'm not sure what kind of paper he's referring too). Maybe I'm looking for a shortcut - getting something that's ready to go rather than spending the time finding the supplies and making the card. Plus my wife is wanting to know what I want for my birthday.....

Seefutlung · November 15, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

Rollei E36RE, GN 82 Meters, GN 250 feet! ... I miss it soooo much.:cry

ziggy53

!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But your flies now love you.

-G-

ziggy53 · November 15, 2006

My personal recommendation is to make a number of light modifiers, for a pittance, and ask your wife to purchase a second flash, preferably one that you can slave.

The light you get from 2 flashes can be so much more diverse than anything you get from a single flash and "any" modifier. You can never have too many sources of light, but how you use them is left to your experience and imagination.

ziggy53

Art Scott · November 15, 2006

LumiQuest SoftBox

This is what I use.... LumiQuest SoftBox .....My reasoning was it attaches with "velcro" and fits ALL MY FLASHES......LIght weight< i don't even notice it is there.

Just another suggestion

Girevik · November 15, 2006

ziggy53 wrote:

My personal recommendation is to make a number of light modifiers, for a pittance, and ask your wife to purchase a second flash, preferably one that you can slave.

The light you get from 2 flashes can be so much more diverse than anything you get from a single flash and "any" modifier. You can never have too many sources of light, but how you use them is left to your experience and imagination.

I appreciate the suggestion, and agree that in a perfect world a 2nd flash is a much better option, I just don't think it fits what I'm looking for right now.

ziggy53

As much as I'd like to have a 2nd flash (probably the SB800, which I could use as the master and slave my 600 to it), there's a far cry between the price of that and a $35 diffuser. Besides, I seldom shoot in a situation where I could use two flashes. Maybe when (if) I set up a studio in my basement my situation will change. Whether I get a diffuser or not, I don't think a 2nd flash is in the cards right now.

Art Scott wrote:

This is what I use.... LumiQuest SoftBox .....My reasoning was it attaches with "velcro" and fits ALL MY FLASHES......LIght weight< i don't even notice it is there.

Just another suggestion

Thanks - I'll check it out.

mr peas · November 15, 2006

my thoughts and samples
I could have used a thread like this a long while ago

I suppose I'll contribute my findings to help those who are still deciding:

I've used both Demb and something similar to a LS and I enjoy using the Demb diffuser much better.

The Demb diffuser allows you to have a variety of control of how much light you wish to bounce off the ceiling and the amount of light you want to hit the subject. Also, by using specular light, you save on battery life because you can use the least amount of power on your flash and still be able to produce perfectly exposed images.

The Demb diffuser is also much lighter than the LS and does not look like a big piece of tupperware on top of the flash unit. You can also quickly swing back the Flip-It card in a fraction of a second to use the normal flash whereas you can remove the top part of the LS however, you dont have to remove anything (or lose anything for that matter) on the Demb diffuser.

For long range wide shots such as groups, the Demb diffuser is also much more proficient. It can be used without the diffuser to bounce specular light forward at full power and light up the entire scene in front of you without looking without having harsh shadows in the background. Whereas the LS must use diffused light unless the top is removed to light up the ceiling, but lets face it, you cant have white ceilings all the time so lighting up a very large crowd is somewhat hard to do with it.

I use a similar device to a LS for portraits. I use it handheld to get it extremely close to my subject and light up certain areas I want. The Demb unit works best mounted on the camera where shooting with 50mm and above for portraits, it lights up the subject really well and creates soft shadows behind the subject.

Basically, its nice to have both. However, in my own opinion, the LS is very expensive @ $50+ versus the Demb for $35+. The Demb is much more user intuitive with its adjustable card and removable front diffuser and does not need velcro to be strapped to the flash unit whereas the LS is much heavier, much more expensive and thought the top is removable it may become a hassle to remove and re-attach at certain situations and I'm assuming you could lose the piece very easily. Also, the bounce flash off the wall with partial fill via JD diffuser works really great.

The choice is really up to you. I would rather build my own LS with an empty plastic rubbing alcohol bottle (which I use) and buy a Demb diffuser (which is very cheap), I would build my own Demb diffuser, but I'd have to find similar hinges, reflectors and cutout my own diffuser and that takes much longer (also may cost more) than building a LS-type with an alcohol bottle. Just remember guys and gals, its just a light diffuser not a miracle unit.

Here are some samples:

Bottle-style (similar to a cloud-LS) Handheld: (close up)

Bottle-style (stofen size cut):

Demb-diffuser: (card 100% forward)

Demb-diffuser: (card partially forward with more emphasis on ceiling bounce)

Here's the diffusers I use:

You cant beat $freefifty.free and $35 shipped for a Pro-style JD diffuser, in my opinion is darn good for the money. It would have taken me a lot more in gas, proper supplies and time to make something similar whereas the bottle-style you can make very cheaply and quickly.

Either way, if you have the money, then buy both. Bottle-style is much lighter than the LS and looks just as goofy

. JD-diffusers are less of a distraction in the field (havent had anyone ask me about yet), plus its adjustable.

They're all fun to play with it, I say try to build one yourself first, if you cant or dont have the time, then pay someone else to do it

Thats my thoughts, I hope it helps.

Seefutlung · November 15, 2006

For ease of use ... (and results ... although rating results is subjective) ... I am glad to have the Sto-Fen.

Gary

Scott_Quier · November 16, 2006

rsinmadrid wrote:

Yes, I have seen that shot before. The exposure looks very good. Can you provide a link to the EXIF? In particular, I was wondering what shooting mode you were using, shutter speed and aperture.

Thanks,

The exif for this picture

can be found here...

Khaos · November 16, 2006

I use the LS PJ clear with the inverted, clouded dome.
I really like this product. It works. It diffuses well and does and excellen job of spreading light. It's biggest hit with me was how easy and quck it was to switch from landscape to portrait mode and get excellent results. This is not easy nor quick to do with just a card bounce or that stofen thing I hated and got rid of.

Mind you of the model though. The PJ is smaller and lighter than the first two.

Demb diffuser vs. Lightsphere

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