Hockey shots - crtique/advice needed

controld · November 27, 2006

I tried my hand at shooting hockey again this weekend. This is about the 10th attempt. First time with the 30D - so I was looking forward to the leap forward in noise reduction from the 10D. Shooting with a 70-200 f/4L lens in Av at f/4 to try and maximize shutter speed.

My questions are:

1 - A lot the pictures look soft - is that likely a function of the shutter speed, and did I screw myself by shooting handheld instead of using the monopod? Is it likely I am doing something like letting the AF point slip off the moving subject? Some pics seem really sharp and a lot do not.

2 - Related to another thread in here I was just reading - is it a mistake to use Av for this? Should I force a higher shutter speed and hope I can push the exposure in PP and still get a useable pic? I'd love to go pick up a 70-200 f/2.8 to help but that is not happening!

3 - Do the pictures all look blue to you guys too? I tried to nail down the WB in RAW conversion - but thinking I missed. Should the WB be similar for all shots from the same location or would it vary widely shot to shot?

Full gallery: http://mikeapted.smugmug.com/gallery/2178913/

Couple sample pics:

#1

#2

#3

Thanks for any comments/advice you can offer.

aktse · November 27, 2006

controld wrote:

My questions are:

1 - A lot the pictures look soft - is that likely a function of the shutter speed, and did I screw myself by shooting handheld instead of using the monopod? Is it likely I am doing something like letting the AF point slip off the moving subject? Some pics seem really sharp and a lot do not.

2 - Related to another thread in here I was just reading - is it a mistake to use Av for this? Should I force a higher shutter speed and hope I can push the exposure in PP and still get a useable pic? I'd love to go pick up a 70-200 f/2.8 to help but that is not happening!

3 - Do the pictures all look blue to you guys too? I tried to nail down the WB in RAW conversion - but thinking I missed. Should the WB be similar for all shots from the same location or would it vary widely shot to shot?

The people who have shot ice hockey longer than I have can probably chime in, but I moved to the dslr world just to shoot ice hockey. I don't think your problem was the camera body, but the lens. I think you really need f/2.8 or faster.... I shoot with 135mm f/2.0 and with the 70-200 f/2.8, but I sometimes find that the f/2.8 isn't enough.

1. I hand hold and I find that I'm mostly successful doing it. What focus mode are you using? Are you using AI Servo/Predictive Focusing? However, I think you really need a faster lens.

2. I shoot in Av or full manaul mode. I find that with ice hockey, lighting is really, really poor and I need to go as wide as I can go. To freeze motion, I like to hit around 1/500 shutter speed. I think this is my sweet spot.

3. I find that WB changes depending on where I'm standing. The lights in most rinks changes the length of the rink.

controld · November 27, 2006

aktse wrote:

Are you using AI Servo/Predictive Focusing? However, I think you really need a faster lens.

AI Servo for the focusing. I think I may get sloppy in tracking the center focus point over the subject sometimes though.

aktse wrote:

To freeze motion, I like to hit around 1/500 shutter speed. I think this is my sweet spot.

I looked through the shots and I see a lot of 1/250, 1/320, and 1/400 shots in there. Granted there are a fair number of 1/500 and 1/640 too. Maybe I just need to push the ISO up fom 800 to 1600 and rely on Noise Ninja to save the day - barring of course, a faster lens.

Thanks for your comments.

- Mike

Steve Cavigliano · November 27, 2006

Mike,
1/400 or so should be good most of the time. The point re; AI Servo is valid. Sometimes the first 1 or even 2 images are soft until it really locks on. I'd advise stretching the histogram on these. IOW, move the right tail towards 255. It will brighten these up. You can also see where the wb has changed on you due to the lighting. Some of your images need to have the wb "tweaked". Like the last one above (her sweater and socks have a reddish tint to them). I'd also add some low radius sharpening (maybe .2, 200%, 0).

I think these look really nice for using F4

To bad those girls have those grill guards on

Hard to get decent faces with those.

Steve

DJ-S1 · November 27, 2006

Folks here tell me that arena lighting "cycles", meaning it changes the color cast constantly. I think all you can do is clean it up in post.

If you want great advice, drop a PM or email to Winger. She's very experienced with hockey shots.

Ann McRae · November 27, 2006

DJ-S1 wrote:

Folks here tell me that arena lighting "cycles", meaning it changes the color cast constantly. I think all you can do is clean it up in post.

If you want great advice, drop a PM or email to Winger. She's very experienced with hockey shots.

Lights do cycle - the best way to deal with that is to manually set your white balance with a grey card.
And shoot RAW - lots more room to recover your exposure that way.
The points about AI Servo, center focus, etc are all right on the money.

I use CF 4, 3 with my 20d too - cannot remember what it is called tho....

I shoot indoor soccer with the 85mm f1.8 at ISO 1600, f2.0 1/800 shutter. Noise isn't such a big deal - certainly not as important as good crisp shots.

ann

controld · November 27, 2006

Ann McRae wrote:

I use CF 4, 3 with my 20d too - cannot remember what it is called tho....

I shoot indoor soccer with the 85mm f1.8 at ISO 1600, f2.0 1/800 shutter. Noise isn't such a big deal - certainly not as important as good crisp shots.

In retrospect I should have pushed the ISO to 1600 as the noise on the 30D is very reasonable and Noise Ninja does a very good job in PP as well.

Can you elaborate on the CF above? I read up on it in the manual but I am missing something I think. From what I am reading it allows you to turn AI Servo on/off using the * button. Why would I not leave it on full time? Thanks and I apologize if I am being braindead here...

- Mike

controld · November 27, 2006

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

I'd advise stretching the histogram on these. IOW, move the right tail towards 255. It will brighten these up. You can also see where the wb has changed on you due to the lighting. Some of your images need to have the wb "tweaked". Like the last one above (her sweater and socks have a reddish tint to them). I'd also add some low radius sharpening (maybe .2, 200%, 0).

Thanks for the PP advice - I am still working on these skills as well.

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

I think these look really nice for using F4 To bad those girls have those grill guards on Hard to get decent faces with those.

I agree!

- Mike

ian408 · November 27, 2006

Custom WB. Coffee filter method or expodisc should do fine. Shooting RAW
and correcting WB in post would be better.

Ideally, they turn the lights on 20-30 minutes before the game so that they
reach temperature before it the game starts (I used to hate watching the
rink light up through the first period).

For a good example of WB; shoot a three or four shot burst then look at
the WB in each frame.

If you want to create a custom WB, take a white coffe filter, place it over
the lens & turn the lens to MF, shoot a frame with the camera pointed toward
the ice (your normal shooting position). Then select that frame as the WB.

I would suggest you stick with hand held and increase the ISO a bit.
Also, carry a towel you can use to clean off the glass before you shoot
through it and try and hold the lens right up to the glass when you shoot.
I think some softness might be shooting through the glass (though the
shots I looked at look OK to me).

If you want to grab some info about camera settings for sports, try
www.siphoto.com.

controld · November 27, 2006

ian408 wrote:

Also, carry a towel you can use to clean off the glass before you shoot through it and try and hold the lens right up to the glass when you shoot. I think some softness might be shooting through the glass (though the
shots I looked at look OK to me).

If you want to grab some info about camera settings for sports, try
www.siphoto.com.

Thanks for the tips! The glass was dirty as .... ummm... it was dirty. They don't have any fancy cut outs at that rink either. I wonder if they would let me clean the inside of the glass before the game in a couple spots. I had to toss some shots outright due to smudges blurring the image. Of course one of those shots was the game winning goal! :cry

- Mike

ian408 · November 27, 2006

controld wrote:

Thanks for the tips! The glass was dirty as .... ummm... it was dirty. They don't have any fancy cut outs at that rink either. I wonder if they would let me clean the inside of the glass before the game in a couple spots. I had to toss some shots outright due to smudges blurring the image. Of course one of those shots was the game winning goal! :cry

- Mike

I don't shoot much hockey any more but if you ask the ref nicely, he (or
she) might help you. The officials should be on the ice about 10 minutes
before game time...I would do it for you as long as you didn't make my
ass look phat in that photo

Sean K · November 27, 2006

Try shooting during a practice when you would be able to stand in the players bench. As long as they aren't scrimaging all the players will be on the ice. If the coach is game this will get you in front of the glass. Of course this brings a whole new set of problems such as clutter due to there being more bodies and pucks on the ice. Also there's no game day emotions although you can't see their faces very well with cages on anyways. Benefits of shooting during a practice include predictability. You can set up for certain drills and shoot the same shot over and over agin plus if you frame it just right it no one can tell it wasn't a real game. Also, you could use the extra bodies as a more interesting background either oof or in focus to showcase a wide range of expressions that will be found on those players standing around.

I'd try shooting mens league hockey as well so you can see more faces. I'd also take some close up shots 'cause in hockey, as much as a player is gliding effortlessly on open ice they are battling along the boards. They see a camera and they'll battle even harder.

Just some thoughts. I'm just a beginner photographer, but I have played the game since the age of 5.

ian408 · November 28, 2006

Sean K wrote:

Try shooting during a practice when you would be able to stand in the players bench.

I'm not sure how it is in Canada but the player's benches are off limits
during a game. USA Hockey also limits the number of coaches on the
bench (and they require coaching cards). I don't think there are any
restrictions during practice but you might want to check.

Adult leagues have fewer restrictions--even during a game.

Oh, and if you're any place you could be hit by the puck, pay attention
at all times...I can tell you from experience if you get hit, especially by
a kid at the jr-b level, it will hurt.

controld · November 28, 2006

Thanks for the further suggestions. My odds of getting on the bench for a game are very low I think - I'll show up early next time and get the co-operation of the refs in cleaning some glass perhaps.

Till next time!

- Mike

winger · December 1, 2006

DJ-S1 wrote:

Folks here tell me that arena lighting "cycles", meaning it changes the color cast constantly. I think all you can do is clean it up in post.

If you want great advice, drop a PM or email to Winger. She's very experienced with hockey shots.

Older arenas do have lights that tend to cycle.

And I am trying to look at your gallery controld so I can comment but for some reason nothing will open right now.

controld · December 2, 2006

winger wrote:

And I am trying to look at your gallery controld so I can comment but for some reason nothing will open right now.

Not sure what's up with the gallery - I uploaded a newly sharpened set of the pics so the samples are back up in the OP and the gallery should work. Any comments/suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

- Mike

slapshot · December 5, 2006

My thoughts on ice hockey
I have been shooting youth hockey for the last four years and it is probably the hardest activity to shoot. Here are my thoughts:

- Forget about setting white balance on the camera. As many rinks have the lights that cycle frequency, you will never get consistent shots, even using a custom WB setting. You will sometimes get different WB in the same photo, particularly if you are shooting down the length of the ice. Not worth the trouble. Applying Auto Levels when batch processing the photos in PS afterwards will fix 99% of the shots. Great shots that I want to enlarge, I will manually adjust in PS.

- Take lot's of photos. I will take around 150 shots per game, of which I may get 10 - 20 keepers. Out of that I may get only a couple that I think are great photos.

- Shoot in aperture priority as wide open as your lens will get. Depending on the action happening, you may get acceptable sharpness even at 1/250 or lower. Where you will see blurring most often is the puck and the blade of the stick. Sometimes it actually looks better with the blur. I have had good photos as low as 1/125.

- I started with a cheap lens that came with the camera (Nikon D70) and with time and practice, was able to get good photos. Eventually switched to the f2.8 70-200. With this lens I don't get more "good" shots, but I do get less "bad" shots.

- Experiment with ISO. Try test shots at different ratings. I think 1600 is too grainy on the D70, so I rarely go that high. I prefer to use a lower ISO and a lower shutter speed. Some rinks are so bad that this is not possible and you have to go with 1600.

- Try burst mode. You will get great shots that would have been nearly impossible to time just right. Also get some nice sequences.

- Shoot from the corners, through the glass. Just take the time to find a clean spot. I have shot from the bench and the penalty box, but the angles aren't great, with the exception of shooting the goalie. Shooting from the corners gives you great angles on most of the play. I will take some time shooting from behind the goalie also too get a frontal shot of the forwards shooting the puck.

- Learn and know the game. When you can anticipate where the pass will go, when the shot will come, you will get much better photos.

- When you're first starting, don't crop too tight when taking the photo. You can crop down later in post-processing. I found in trying to get too tight, I would have an otherwise great shot that was mis-framed or did not have all the action in the photo.

- Plan your shoot. I shoot the goalie one period, defense the next, forwards the next. Goalie is the easiest. Defense in front of the net or on the point are relatively easy, you know where they are going to be. Forwards are the hardest, they're moving the most. Shoot face-offs. Easy to frame and you can get some great shots.

I hope that helps. I learned most of this from reading through forums like this and lot's of trial and error.

If you would like to see some of my recent hockey shots, see my page at www.goldenwolves.smugmug.com

winger · December 6, 2006

Ok I went to your galleries and looked at what you had.

First question I have is think of the audience you are shooting for. I generally end up shooting for sport information or newspapers. Sport information wants a mixture of isolated player shots where as the newspapers want a photo that tells a story, usually that will involve a couple of players. I noticed you had a lot of isolated shots in your gallery and I comment because I didn’t know if that was a conscious decision, or just what you have been shooting.

Alright let me begin with what I use. I have a Canon 20d and a 70-200 f2.8 lens. It is pretty much ALL I use for hockey. Maybe if I build a box for a goal came I would stick my wide angle lens in there and when I am on the catwalk I throw on my extender but otherwise the 70-200 covers what you need on the rink.

Where to shoot from? I spend a lot of time at the end of the rink, you get the forwards carrying the puck down at you, and you can get some great shots of the D handling the puck in the offensive zone. I also will shoot from the box simply because you don’t have the glass issue. The glass does throw a monkey wrench into your plans, it makes it harder for the lens to focus, and more difficult to manage your colors. Then again shooting at the end of the rink provides problems that the auto focus will struggle with players heading towards you. Hockey is FAST, women collegiate doesn’t move as fast as men’s so it may not be a problem. I haven’t shot that many women’s games. Another place I like to shoot is the blue line. If the glass is descent I usually can get the goalie, jubilation shots as well as some hits (or in women’s case just the movement along the boards and the I don’t know how to describe it but “using my personnel space to my advantage” is sort of what I do when I play) I some times will get hits when I shoot at the end of the rink, but a lot of times there is a lot of distraction in the background from refs, the bench or other players.

I am lucky the place where I usually shoot at has great light. The light is not consistent through out the rink, but it doesn’t cycle. So after 3 years of shooting I have figured out what I need to change to shoot. Most rinks are not like this, so as much as moving around is important for perspective, if you are unsure of the light, I would move once a period so you can take the next period to make sure your camera is set up appropriately.

Hmmm other things about hockey: Never put your camera down, which goes for any sports shooting, great shots come for many places, some of which is in between the action. Captain of the team have a discussion with the ref, goalie hanging his head down, the D coming back to tell something to the goalie, goalie taking a drink, some player throwing a fit about going into the box.

I spent a lot of time checking out other peoples galleries for ideas and what I wanted to shoot.

Ok sorry I have to cut this short but I have to head off to my first day at my new job.
But if you are interested in looking here are a mind numbing amount of photos to look at:
Womens' http://winger.smugmug.com/gallery/948396
Mens’ http://winger.smugmug.com/gallery/1337693

The Men's games are in a nice well lit facility, the womens games are in a dugeon of a rink.
As you can see I still have a color management issue, but I recently discovered it is because my monitor is way off. So now I have to figure out how to calibrate it and then go back to teaching myself photoshop to do the last bit of tweekings (althought overall I strive to do it right in camera, I would rather do nothing in photoshop but I have submitted to the fact that it is a powerful tool and I should learn how to use it).
But the galleries give you a good idea of what 3 years experience in shooting can do for ya.

controld · December 6, 2006

Winger/Slapshot - thanks for all the great advice. I will bear it all in mind as I keep "learning by doing".

- Mike

Hockey shots - crtique/advice needed

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