Need some advice

blackwaterstudio · December 28, 2004

This is for the professional's here.

As you all know I was contacted by the hockey team director of sales and marketing about me becoming their photographer.

We meet tonight and he really loves the photo's, everyone he's showed them to loves them.

He wants to make me the photographer, here's the catch though. They are a new team, first year playing, and they can't pay me. He did say however that he would put me in the book they sell every game at the door, I would get all the credit for the photo's, links on the website, etc. I would also be able to sell any of the prints I shot. He wants to use me to shoot the cover of the book they sell at the beginning of the game, wants me to do trading cards, and 4-5 players print 8 x 10's and have them sign them, along with some other stuff. He said next year we could talk about a salary, but at this point just not enough money to go around (which I can understand).

So from this, what would you suggest?

dkapp · December 28, 2004

They will be making money on your shots, so working for free doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

They may not have money now to pay you a salary, but they will have money once they sell your shots in books, or individual players shots. I'd suggest you get a percentage of profits, then next year you can discuss a salary+ depending how well you do.

Working for free is never fun, and I don't recommend it since they WILL be making money off your hard work.

There is a lot of money in souvenirs, and you are a great photographer. Don't sell yourself short.

Dave

blackwaterstudio · December 28, 2004

dkapp wrote:

They will be making money on your shots, so working for free doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

They may not have money now to pay you a salary, but they will have money once they sell your shots in books, or individual players shots. I'd suggest you get a percentage of profits, then next year you can discuss a salary+ depending how well you do.

Working for free is never fun, and I don't recommend it since they WILL be making money off your hard work.

There is a lot of money in souvenirs, and you are a great photographer. Don't sell yourself short.

Dave

Thats just it, they will not be selling my shots, I will. Some stuff they may, like the trading cards, etc. They will probably sell the autographs also, but I will make a profit or a percentage off of it.

It won't be done for free, just not be salary type paying job.

Also, he said he could get my a full page, or half which ever I wanted for advertising for me in their little books.

Shay Stephens · December 28, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

Thats just it, they will not be selling my shots, I will. Some stuff they may, like the trading cards, etc. They will probably sell the autographs also, but I will make a profit or a percentage off of it.

It won't be done for free, just not be salary type paying job.

Also, he said he could get my a full page, or half which ever I wanted for advertising for me in their little books.

The trick here is to determine if all the perks and sales you can muster will add up to something that is worth it for you to do. If it is, great. If it is not, then it really is probably better to pass. If you don't know, then this is where you have to do some guessing.

Typically shooting on speculation is a loosing proposition. But there are those instances where it can pay off. No one can tell you which way to go based on what we know here. And pulling a salary as opposed to being able to sell on your own, well, let me rephrase, you can make more on your own, a salary will typically be less, but more steady and predictable. If you can really market your work well, you could probably do quite well, especially with the cooperation of the organization and getting ads, access, and such.

Do your homework on this one and see what kind of a plan you can come up with. There is potential here for great gain or great loss.

Figure out how to sell as much as you possibly can. License photo usage for souvenirs, posters, everything and anything you can. No one gets to use a photo without paying for it, etc, etc. You get the idea :-)

blackwaterstudio · December 28, 2004

Shay Stephens wrote:

The trick here is to determine if all the perks and sales you can muster will add up to something that is worth it for you to do. If it is, great. If it is not, then it really is probably better to pass. If you don't know, then this is where you have to do some guessing.

Typically shooting on speculation is a loosing proposition. But there are those instances where it can pay off. No one can tell you which way to go based on what we know here. And pulling a salary as opposed to being able to sell on your own, well, let me rephrase, you can make more on your own, a salary will typically be less, but more steady and predictable. If you can really market your work well, you could probably do quite well, especially with the cooperation of the organization and getting ads, access, and such.

Do your homework on this one and see what kind of a plan you can come up with. There is potential here for great gain or great loss.

Figure out how to sell as much as you possibly can. License photo usage for souvenirs, posters, everything and anything you can. No one gets to use a photo without paying for it, etc, etc. You get the idea :-)

Thanks Shay, I'll set down and see what I can come up with. I wish there was a form I could just plug stuff into and go from there

dkapp · December 28, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

Thats just it, they will not be selling my shots, I will. Some stuff they may, like the trading cards, etc. They will probably sell the autographs also, but I will make a profit or a percentage off of it.

It won't be done for free, just not be salary type paying job.

Also, he said he could get my a full page, or half which ever I wanted for advertising for me in their little books.

I must have misunderstood your first post. But here is what I'm reading.

1.) They sell the book, your photographs inside.
2.) They sell the cards, your photographs.
3.) They sell autographed 8x10, your photograph.
4.) You sell whatever else you can market. Online? Your own stand at the game?

Those seem to be the big ticket items. Shay is right, here. You will have to negotiate the best deal you can, then decide if it's worth it.

Good luck and let us know how it goes

Dave

blackwaterstudio · December 28, 2004

dkapp wrote:

I must have misunderstood your first post. But here is what I'm reading.

1.) They sell the book, your photographs inside.
2.) They sell the cards, your photographs.
3.) They sell autographed 8x10, your photograph.
4.) You sell whatever else you can market. Online? Your own stand at the game?

Those seem to be the big ticket items. Shay is right, here. You will have to negotiate the best deal you can, then decide if it's worth it.

Good luck and let us know how it goes

Dave

You were reading it right Dave, just didn't get into the details on % from those sales.

Sam · December 28, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

This is for the professional's here.

As you all know I was contacted by the hockey team director of sales and marketing about me becoming their photographer.

We meet tonight and he really loves the photo's, everyone he's showed them to loves them.

He wants to make me the photographer, here's the catch though. They are a new team, first year playing, and they can't pay me. He did say however that he would put me in the book they sell every game at the door, I would get all the credit for the photo's, links on the website, etc. I would also be able to sell any of the prints I shot. He wants to use me to shoot the cover of the book they sell at the beginning of the game, wants me to do trading cards, and 4-5 players print 8 x 10's and have them sign them, along with some other stuff. He said next year we could talk about a salary, but at this point just not enough money to go around (which I can understand).

So from this, what would you suggest?

Although I am not a professional, I have a somewhat different take on this. I would ask, what is your goal here? What are your expectations? What are the expectations of the hockey team? If you have aspirations of becoming a real professional, this could be just the opportunity you need. Think of the experience you will gain in one season! Assuming you last through the first game. J You will learn how to take action shots, portraits, learn efficient workflow and post processing (for commercial printing) etc. In short you will learn how to take a hobby and turn it into a business.

Of course you will need to have sufficient compensation to cover your equipment costs. IE: Rebel (my camera as well) might not be fast enough or deal well with low light on the skating rink. You may also need a really fast lens. Think $$.

My point is this, you may well be risking time and effort, but the rewards can be substantial. At the end of the season you will be a better photographer, with more knowledge, and confidence. You will also have a personal, and commercial portfolio with added credibility.

Just my thoughts on this.

Sam

blackwaterstudio · December 28, 2004

Sam wrote:

Although I am not a professional, I have a somewhat different take on this. I would ask, what is your goal here? What are your expectations? What are the expectations of the hockey team? If you have aspirations of becoming a real professional, this could be just the opportunity you need. Think of the experience you will gain in one season! Assuming you last through the first game. J You will learn how to take action shots, portraits, learn efficient workflow and post processing (for commercial printing) etc. In short you will learn how to take a hobby and turn it into a business.

Of course you will need to have sufficient compensation to cover your equipment costs. IE: Rebel (my camera as well) might not be fast enough or deal well with low light on the skating rink. You may also need a really fast lens. Think $$.

My point is this, you may well be risking time and effort, but the rewards can be substantial. At the end of the season you will be a better photographer, with more knowledge, and confidence. You will also have a personal, and commercial portfolio with added credibility.

Just my thoughts on this.

Sam

Sam,
I would like to take it from a hobby to a professional stance. Photography has took me by surprise, I'm always going around looking for things to photography. I have so far made it through 2 games, they have atleast 15 more home games, and thats not counting games away. They play through middle of March. So I stand to take alot of pictures, and gain alot of knowledge.

I do need help with printing, if there is a place I can read about printing as digital printing is new to me.

ginger_55 · December 28, 2004

I am not a pro either. But I would say to go for it. What else are you going to be doing?

How much is a year at school, which this would be? But those parents will be buying photos, they will, parents are crazy. The only stuff I have sold is bad shots of kids in a park.

And, after you are all through with this year, you will have gained all that knowledge that Sam talked about, for free, or for the price of equipment. If you treat it better than I treat mine, you can sell it on ebay if the whole thing doesn't work out.

And you will have a NAME. Think about it, what is the best asset you can have in any business: a NAME.

Smile, ginger

ginger_55 · December 28, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

Sam,
I would like to take it from a hobby to a professional stance. Photography has took me by surprise, I'm always going around looking for things to photography. I have so far made it through 2 games, they have atleast 15 more home games, and thats not counting games away. They play through middle of March. So I stand to take alot of pictures, and gain alot of knowledge.

I do need help with printing, if there is a place I can read about printing as digital printing is new to me.

It is as cheap to have the printing done as to do it yourself, that is what I have read.

I would have my printing done, concentrate on other things.

ginger

blackwaterstudio · December 28, 2004

ginger_55 wrote:

It is as cheap to have the printing done as to do it yourself, that is what I have read.

I would have my printing done, concentrate on other things.

ginger

Yea I would send them out, I need to learn how to prep for printing. I know that you can't just take a image and have it printed. So if anyone has a good source for learning to print I would be greatful.

Sam · December 28, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

Yea I would send them out, I need to learn how to prep for printing. I know that you can't just take a image and have it printed. So if anyone has a good source for learning to print I would be greatful.

See! You have already identified an area of knowledge you need to improve on, and you have a client / partner who is willing to work with you through the learning curve. How good is that!

Here is a thought. Locate a local pro printing shop and go talk to them about what your doing and express a desire to use them for all your prints. Just ask them what they need. I feel confident that at least one shop will work with you.

One question, how is your photoshop skills? You will need the basics here.

Good luck, and post some of the hockey shots!

Sam

Tony · December 29, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

So from this, what would you suggest?

I'm not a pro although I do make some money from my photos. I also take some jobs that don't pay (community type stuff). My full time job is in consulting and I charge by the hour, so I understand what it means to be compensated fairly for the work that gets done, but for something like this I would ask yourself the following:

-- Will this experience be a good thing for you that allows you to reach some goal later on?

-- Will it provide you with local contacts that will help you with your photo business?

-- Is there a way to get some other perks out of this (season tickets!) or a cut of any sales beyond a certain amount for the materials with your photos (surely there is some way for a win win there...)

-- Do you want to do it?

Working for free in something like this has it's advantages. You develop your skill, build up your network and reputation and get something out of it but don't quite have the same stress level of someone getting paid. You blow a shot - that stinks - but hey - they got what they paid for. One caution, however, is that it will be tough for them to pay 'next year' if they can't pay this year (that just sounds fishy to me). Ultimately - you have to be the judge on how they treat you and of course, if they are simply trying to take advantage of you, then you already know the answer. On the other hand - if you're getting something out of it, your not really doing it for free....Good luck!

blackwaterstudio · December 29, 2004

Sam wrote:

See! You have already identified an area of knowledge you need to improve on, and you have a client / partner who is willing to work with you through the learning curve. How good is that!

Here is a thought. Locate a local pro printing shop and go talk to them about what your doing and express a desire to use them for all your prints. Just ask them what they need. I feel confident that at least one shop will work with you.

One question, how is your photoshop skills? You will need the basics here.

Good luck, and post some of the hockey shots!

Sam

I'm alright with photoshop, still learning every day. I've got alittle knowledge on printing but not alot. My photo's come out 17 x 7 I belive out of the camera. Thats all well and good, but what if someone wants a 8 x 10 or 4 x 6. This is where I run into my problem.

Tony · December 29, 2004

Photos from the rebel are 4x6 ratio, so for sizes that are not multiples of 4x6 (an 8x10, for example) requires some cropping prior to printing. THis normally is not hard - vertical 4x6s usually can be turned into nice 5x7s, etc... PS, PSE and PSP all allow you to do this and also layout proof sheets and/or final prints. Most of the Canon and Epson printers (other brands also I would imagine) will allow you to do borderless prints as well.

blackwaterstudio · December 29, 2004

Tony wrote:

Photos from the rebel are 4x6 ratio, so for sizes that are not multiples of 4x6 (an 8x10, for example) requires some cropping prior to printing. THis normally is not hard - vertical 4x6s usually can be turned into nice 5x7s, etc... PS, PSE and PSP all allow you to do this and also layout proof sheets and/or final prints. Most of the Canon and Epson printers (other brands also I would imagine) will allow you to do borderless prints as well.

See this is what I'm talking about, I don't have a clue as to what your saying. I can already tell printing is going to be a pain for me to learn

Tony · December 29, 2004

Sorry....by 4x6 I am referring the ratio between the width and the length (or aspect ratio). The basic landscape image (meaning the camera was held normally) come out of the camera with the vertical height (up and down) 4/6ths (or really 2/3rds) the length of the horizontal height (across).

If you print this, without any manipulation, you can print a 4x6, 8x12 or any other multiple. To do other sizes (an 8x10 has a 4x5 aspect ratio) requires that the you crop the photo meaning you will lose some part of the image. In the case of an 8x10 you would lose some at the top or the bottom but could still get the entire image across (for example). Most image editing programs help you through cropping and laying this out before you print. If you order prints from smugmug, they have the same ability when you are ordering the prints.

blackwaterstudio · December 29, 2004

Tony wrote:

Sorry....by 4x6 I am referring the ratio between the width and the length (or aspect ratio). The basic landscape image (meaning the camera was held normally) come out of the camera with the vertical height (up and down) 4/6ths (or really 2/3rds) the length of the horizontal height (across).

If you print this, without any manipulation, you can print a 4x6, 8x12 or any other multiple. To do other sizes (an 8x10 has a 4x5 aspect ratio) requires that the you crop the photo meaning you will lose some part of the image. In the case of an 8x10 you would lose some at the top or the bottom but could still get the entire image across (for example). Most image editing programs help you through cropping and laying this out before you print. If you order prints from smugmug, they have the same ability when you are ordering the prints.

Thanks, in Photoshop CS which is what I use is there a way to change the ratio's so I can start playing with these? There has to be a easy way to do this. Currently to get a 8 x 10 I 'm placing it on a 11 x 14 canvas and just cutting the picture out. Seems like a waste to me.

lynnesite · December 29, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

Thanks, in Photoshop CS which is what I use is there a way to change the ratio's so I can start playing with these? There has to be a easy way to do this. Currently to get a 8 x 10 I 'm placing it on a 11 x 14 canvas and just cutting the picture out. Seems like a waste to me.

click the crop tool (or hit the letter c which is the shortcut). On the options bar below the pulldown menus, put 8 in for width and 10 in for height. Set the dpi to whatever it "is" (or you want it to be), 240 for RAW let's say.

Then take the cursor to your image, where you'll see it change shape to the crop tool--drag from top left to bottom right, and let go. You'll see a shaded area that is eliminated, and the highlighted area which is the current selection. Use the "handles" on each corner to change the amount highlighted to your desired result. The handles will also tilt the image if wanted. From the center of the highlighted area you can "grab" with the mouse button and alter the selection by dragging. When done simply right click and your two options are "crop" or "cancel".

Lynne

blackwaterstudio · December 29, 2004

lynnesite wrote:

click the crop tool (or hit the letter c which is the shortcut). On the options bar below the pulldown menus, put 8 in for width and 10 in for height. Set the dpi to whatever it "is" (or you want it to be), 240 for RAW let's say.

Then take the cursor to your image, where you'll see it change shape to the crop tool--drag from top left to bottom right, and let go. You'll see a shaded area that is eliminated, and the highlighted area which is the current selection. Use the "handles" on each corner to change the amount highlighted to your desired result. The handles will also tilt the image if wanted. From the center of the highlighted area you can "grab" with the mouse button and alter the selection by dragging. When done simply right click and your two options are "crop" or "cancel".

Lynne

Thanks so much, that was very easy. I think I have opened up a new world here.

The one thing I noticed though. If I want to get the entire picture printed, how would one go about going that without cropping? Is there a way to do it?

Sam · December 29, 2004

jdsphotography wrote:

Thanks so much, that was very easy. I think I have opened up a new world here.

The one thing I noticed though. If I want to get the entire picture printed, how would one go about going that without cropping? Is there a way to do it?

Ok, let me see if I can add to the great advice you have already received.

You can use the crop tool without any criteria typed and use it as a free hand crop. This way you can set the height and width independently to accommodate the subject in your photo.

You already know how to set the criteria for a desired aspect ratio.

As for the relationship between size and resolution, try this: 1. Open a new photo. 2. Click on “Image” in the tool bar. (a window will appear, with pixel dimensions and document size boxes) Your image will have a width of 3072 pixels and a height of 2048. The size will depend on the resolution. 4. Uncheck the box “resample image’, (this will allow you change the size without discarding or adding pixels).5. Set the size for inches. 6. Type in 12 for width. PS will automatically set the height to 8 and the resolution to 256. Now you can alter resolution or size and PS will automatically adjust the remaining criteria.

Your printer will be able to let you know what file format, bits, resolution they can work with. I am just looking into have some photos printed myself. My local shop can use from 150 pixels per inch to 400. They did indicate that they felt the resolution should be over 200. So that means our Rebel will provide a resolution of 256 for an 8”X12” size. If say I wanted to print at 11”X16”, I would have only a resolution of 192. This is probably getting boarder line, but wait! We can have PS make up some pixels. Simply check the “resample image” box and change the resolution to say 220. PS will now make up pixels and the pixel count for width will increase from 3072 to 3520, and the height will increase from 2048 to 2347.

Also your photo printer may have a program like “Genuine Fractals” that is designed to increase the size of a print.

I hope this helps,

ian408 · December 30, 2004

Remember, there is non-monetary compensation too. Like that half
page ad or pairs of season tickets for your friends

And remember that hockey is a business. You should treat your photography
as a business too (even if you choose not to get paid).

I can also tell you from experience that the level your team is playing, there
isn't a lot of money and many of those leagues literally live from pay day to
pay day. With that, my advise is that your time is valuable and only you can
decide what it's worth. But the minute you print a photo, pick up a new
lens or drive to the rink, you've spent real money and you should endeavor
to earn that back.

Good luck!

Ian

Need some advice

Comments