Color management

magicpic · January 5, 2007

I am trying to get all my color to match so far my photographs are looking better. I have an epson printer R340 and right now on my window I have photoshop 3. I changed my printer to be sRGB but In the photoshop the color management options are: 1. no color managment. leaves image untagged
2. limited color managment. Tags your images with the sRGB profile that is standard for producing web images 3. full color managment. tags you image with adobe RGBICC color profile that is for print optimization

When I save a file the ICCprofile is save as dialog box.

So far my prints are looking better....I am trying to change the monitor brightness, I know how but it will not let me because it is set some where in default.
so the question is WHAT DO I CHANGE THE PHOTOSHOP COLOR MANAGEMENT TOO? WOULD SOMEONE KNOW WHERE I CHANGE THE MONITER DEFAULT? my monitor is just a tad too light compared to the prints....thanks janis:scratch

Andy · January 6, 2007

Hi Janis,

Set it for the option that produces sRGB.

I recommend you get a Huey and then have no worries: http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1174347

More: http://www.smugmug.com/help/display-color

magicpic · January 6, 2007

Andy wrote:

Hi Janis,

Set it for the option that produces sRGB.

I recommend you get a Huey and then have no worries: http://dgrin.smugmug.com/gallery/1174347

More: http://www.smugmug.com/help/display-color

So that is what I will do but for right now do I check 2. Limited color management. Tags your images with the sRGB ICCprofile that is stnadard for producing web images or 3. Full color management. Tags your image with Adobe RGB ICC color profile that is for print optimization.....I have on my save to embed the sRGB? thanks janis

rutt · January 28, 2007

I've blown so much hot air on this topic that I'm going to get that darn Huey and have an opinion based on real experience instead of theory.

storksb · February 1, 2007

rutt wrote:

I've blown so much hot air on this topic that I'm going to get that darn Huey and have an opinion based on real experience instead of theory.

What are peoples general feelings for the Huey? Thinking of getting one.

Simon

David_S85 · February 1, 2007

storksb wrote:

What are peoples general feelings for the Huey? Thinking of getting one.

Simon

Simon, there's a thread about it here.

storksb · February 1, 2007

David_S85 wrote:

Simon, there's a thread about it here.

Thanks for the link, reading all about it now.

Simon

rutt · February 3, 2007

I got this thing and let it do it's thing. It sure did make a big change in both macbook and cinema display calibration. Might take a little getting used to. The macbook was definitely blue before and more neutral now. But maybe a touch green?

The cinema display was not on the wrong planet, but I guess I agree with what the Huey did.

Now here is the question. Should I let the Huey measure and correct for ambient light? How big and issue is this? First order? Second order? Do I have to drag the thing around with me when I use the notebook? Don't worry about it?

rutt · February 4, 2007

So now I have some real experience and either I'm doing something wrong or the Huey is.

I used it to calibrate both my MacBook Pro 17" glossy and my 30" cinema display. I did it in exactly the same ambient light. And guess, what?

They don't look anything like the same. In fact they look closer with the Apple supplied profiles. Here are some shots (just out-of-the camera jpegs, I'll happily supply raws if anyone cares). Both have backgrounds set to "Solid Gray Light" both are showing the same web page through firefox.

arodney · February 4, 2007

Did you match the luminance of both? Probably not (huey software doesn't have such controls). What you would need to do is see which display has the lesser luminance (the Powerbook no doubt) then set the Cinema to that target as well as the gamma and white point. Plus, the two displays will never match 100% anymore than a CRT and an LCD would match. The panel design is quite different although the differences should be subtle.

rutt · February 4, 2007

So does this mean that the Huey really can't match these two monitors? Apple has a brightness control. Is that what I have to do? Turn down the brightness of the cinema display?

This isn't at all how I imagined this would work. Do I need a more professional thingee than the Huey?

arodney wrote:

Did you match the luminance of both? Probably not (huey software doesn't have such controls). What you would need to do is see which display has the lesser luminance (the Powerbook no doubt) then set the Cinema to that target as well as the gamma and white point. Plus, the two displays will never match 100% anymore than a CRT and an LCD would match. The panel design is quite different although the differences should be subtle.

DavidTO · February 4, 2007

rutt wrote:

So does this mean that the Huey really can't match these two monitors? Apple has a brightness control. Is that what I have to do? Turn down the brightness of the cinema display?

This isn't at all how I imagined this would work. Do I need a more professional thingee than the Huey?

Rutt, I have the huey. It corrects for ambient light on my desktop. The laptop is on it's own. It's a laptop, after all.

As for the differences, they're different monitors, with different abilities.

My Cinema Display is MUCH more vibrant and accurate, too. Or so I think. I find the MBP to be desaturated next to the ACD. So, maybe the Apple profiles compensate somehow, make them look closer, but for my money, trying to get the two to look the same is a fool's game.

rutt · February 4, 2007

DavidTO wrote:

, but for my money, trying to get the two to look the same is a fool's game.

That's good because it corresponds to my initial prejudices. This is what Dan's been saying for a long time. All the different media are really different and the image is actually going to look very different on all of them. The best you can do is to make it capture the same subjective experience.

So I'm glad I did this experiment.

DavidTO · February 4, 2007

rutt wrote:

That's good because it corresponds to my initial prejudices. This is what Dan's been saying for a long time. All the different media are really different and the image is actually going to look very different on all of them. The best you can do is to make it capture the same subjective experience.

So I'm glad I did this experiment.

And for me, each one is the closest it's gonna get to correct, I think. Although they look different, I've done all I can to maximize what I've got.

rutt · February 5, 2007

It isn't the "vibrancy" or "saturation" or "luminance" that's disappointing. Look at that supposedly neutral gray background. It sure is neutral on the ACD. Measures R=G=B=240. But the MBP background measures R=214, G=229,, B=234 which is not neutral. Seems like the minimum you could expect would be to get this pretty unexotic neutral to actually be neutral.

DavidTO · February 5, 2007

rutt wrote:

It isn't the "vibrancy" or "saturation" or "luminance" that's disappointing. Look at that supposedly neutral gray background. It sure is neutral on the ACD. Measures R=G=B=240. But the MBP background measures R=214, G=229,, B=234 which is not neutral. Seems like the minimum you could expect would be to get this pretty unexotic neutral to actually be neutral.

I would. I don't know what your methodology is, but that does seem like the wrong answer.

rutt · February 5, 2007

DavidTO wrote:

I would. I don't know what your methodology is, but that does seem like the wrong answer.

Not much methodology. I used the Huey to calibrate both the MBP and the ACD within a few minutes of each other sitting in the same chair and pointing the same direction. Then I balanced the MBP on the desk in front of the ADC, got out my trusty 5D + 24-105 f/4 and took this shot which is out-of-the-camera jpeg. Later on I used the color sampler to measure both points. The experiment actually confirms my impression of the MBP: it's desktop just doesn't look neutral.

I thought of a few possible causes:

The background really is different and Apple ships a different set of desktops for MPB than for PowerMacs.
The MBP has the "glossy" screen option. Perhaps this has confused the Huey. Perhaps I should lie and tell it that it's a CRT.
Some sort of Huey bug.
Some sort of pilot error.

David, have you ever tried holding your MBP up next to your ACD with grey backgrounds? I'd be very curious.

DavidTO · February 5, 2007

rutt wrote:

David, have you ever tried holding your MBP up next to your ACD with grey backgrounds? I'd be very curious.

No, but I will when I get a chance.

wxwax · February 5, 2007

DavidTO wrote:

I find the MBP to be desaturated next to the ACD.

That was very much my opinion, looking at the two in the Apple store a week ago. Matte screen.

Andy · February 20, 2007

rutt wrote:

So now I have some real experience and either I'm doing something wrong or the Huey is.

I used it to calibrate both my MacBook Pro 17" glossy and my 30" cinema display. I did it in exactly the same ambient light. And guess, what?

They don't look anything like the same. In fact they look closer with the Apple supplied profiles. Here are some shots (just out-of-the camera jpegs, I'll happily supply raws if anyone cares). Both have backgrounds set to "Solid Gray Light" both are showing the same web page through firefox.

I don't really understand, when I calibrate my Mac Pro, I calibrate my Macbook pro immediately afterwards. And my colors are the same.

pathfinder · February 20, 2007

John,

When you shot this image of the screens - were you dead center and square to the image surfaces? Different LCDs respond very differently to off axis viewing, and your jpg looks like it was not entirely square to the surface of both screens. Am I correct or all wet here?

If both screens are calibrated the same, they definitely should look similar.

rutt · February 20, 2007

I wouldn't have bothered to shoot them if they didn't look very different. And I wouldn't have bothered to post if they the numbers didn't basically confirm what my eye saw. And, yes I shot them more than once from more than one angle and got this result.

Perhaps this particular Huey is defective? It sounds like there is a little of that going around. Or perhaps that glossy screen confuses it? In any case, I'm currently giving it an F as far as the MBP goes. I like what it did for the ACD.

pathfinder · February 20, 2007

What I am saying, is that if you shoot any two different LCD screens off axis, ( even if they are exactly the calibrated correctly the same ) - you very well might see different pixel values when looking at the screen off axis - due to the difference in the way pixels look on LCD screens viewed off axis. That could then account for the different pixel readings in your jpg from your camera.

I do not doubt that the screens looked different to your eye - just offering one possible explanation of why the pixels might read different in your jpg - My suggestion is only one of many possibillities -

I am intriqued because I calibrate my 23 in Cimema Display and a 15in G4 PowerBool display with a SPyder2 Pro and they look very similar to my eye - my images edited on one screen, viewed on the other look fine. They seem equivalent to me. I have matte screen on the PB.

pathfinder · February 20, 2007

arodney wrote:

Did you match the luminance of both? Probably not (huey software doesn't have such controls). What you would need to do is see which display has the lesser luminance (the Powerbook no doubt) then set the Cinema to that target as well as the gamma and white point. Plus, the two displays will never match 100% anymore than a CRT and an LCD would match. The panel design is quite different although the differences should be subtle.

I am a little late, but welcome to dgrin arodney.

rutt · February 20, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

I am intriqued because I calibrate my 23 in Cimema Display and a 15in G4 PowerBool display with a SPyder2 Pro and they look very similar to my eye - my images edited on one screen, viewed on the other look fine. They seem equivalent to me. I have matte screen on the PB.

How does the Huey compare to the SPyder2 Pro? And my notebook has a glossy screen.

All I can say, is the Huey didn't do as good a job as I can for this particular computer.

pathfinder · February 20, 2007

Does the glossy screen change vary much when you move your head side to side?

I have no experience with a Huey, John, sorry.

But if hardware calibration has any value at all, and I think even Dan reluctantly feels it may have some, then the screens should look rather similar shouldn't they?

rutt · February 21, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

But if hardware calibration has any value at all, and I think even Dan reluctantly feels it may have some, then the screens should look rather similar shouldn't they?

I agree and am really disappointed in the Huey. I'd be willing to try something better. I don't know very much about that. Is there something better I should try?

Pamela · February 21, 2007

This is a very interesting discussion.

I ordered calibration photos.
Surprisingly , the only coloring that seems slightly off to me is
the pink / lavender, and the saturation is a bit more on the calibration sample .

Now , do I buy Huey , or not.

Im using a MacBook

pathfinder · February 21, 2007

John,
I know you know how to google better than I do.:D

There are several commercial choices, and they make minor changes from year to year. Despite what they would like us to believe, it isn't rocket science.

Gretagmacbeth is probably the gold standard, but their top of the line stuff is way too pricey for hobbyists. Their Huey you have not been satisfied with.

Monoco Systems is another choice. I used an X-Rite system a few years ago on my Win XP system. Seems ok, but not terribly intuitive, and I felt, (suspected) was ported over from the Apple system. My WIn XP screen is reasonably close to my Macs - more contrasty though.

When I got my PowerMac a couple years ago, I bought the Spyder2 Pro It seems to work well, but calibration is slow - it takes about 20min to run a calibration routine. I think the screen is probably pretty accurate and better than the Apple LCD was, as delivered. My native Cinema Display is warmer, and pinker than it is after calibration with a Spyder2 Pro. Its price was mid-range - more than a Huey, but a lot less than the pro level Gretag stuff. When I compare my screen to a Koday gray scale step chart, they look very similar without an apparent warmth or coolness.

Michael Riechman reviewed new software to use with your existing calibration tools - ColorEyes Display Pro and spoke very highly of it. At one time I considered purchasing it, but finally decided that what I am currently using ( Spyder2Pro ) was meeting my needs and moved on to other concerns.

There is software called PrintFix Pro that lets you profile your printer an paper as well. It looked rather interesting also, but has received rather mixed reviews

I see there is a new version PrintFix Pro 2.0 out now also

I may need to review this subject again.

rutt · February 22, 2007

See: http://dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=490637&postcount=83

In light of this, I don't think I'd buy a new Huey right now.

rutt · February 22, 2007

Oh, and here is one more 3rd party color software package that supports various different devices:

http://www.basiccolor.de/english/Datenblaetter_E/display_E/display_E.htm

It comes highly unrecommended. I haven't tried it yet. I couldn't figure out if it works with the Huey.

Color management

Comments