working on lighting my white backdrop...

Six Bees · February 2, 2007

Hi All! I have been working on trying to figure out how to light my backdrop so that I get the no detail white. I have included two images from today to share, I think the final result is fairly good, but I still have some questions. It seems that I always have to play with the exposure in camera raw (although these shots are not the best example of how "off" my exposures have been). Keep in mind I am self taught here, so my terminology may be off, and it takes me a while to figure all this stuff out. I am afraid that if I change exposure compensation in the camera, I will be making it more difficult to fix after the fact if I end up over exposing the shot. So, should I not worry too much and just fix the raw file?

I had also done a ton of test shots trying to light the drop, starting at ISO 200 and then changing the shutter speed, then moving on to the next ISO setting and again changing the shutter speed...and so on because even if I read about it, I have to "see" what it does. Well anyway...I had the camera (Nikon D70s) in shutter priority mode. I in my train of thought is that I mostly will be shooting children so I want to see how to get the detailess white and use a fast shutter speed. Fromwhat I remember, it seemed that I had to have a high ISO to use a pretty quick shutterspeed...but then there was a ton of noise. So, how can I get the no detail white, with faster shutter speed at a lower ISO?? My brain just can not get wrapped around this. I think I am closing in on it, but I am still far from really knowing how to do this. Here are some samples that ended up ok after playing in cs2 a bit. Can anyone help me toward getting it "right" or closer to right without a ton of manipulation after the fact? I also would love any help or suggestions in setting this up correctly, and setting my camera correctly. I am also wondering (didn't have time to reshoot it today to see), but would the white under the plexiglass be whiter if I had my lights closer to the subject? This was my first attempt at the reflection thing too.
Below are the two images I have the befores and afters with the settings in hopes that it would be helpful in your helping me! Thanks in advance.

ISO 400 27mm 1/30sec f/8.0

ISO400 29mm 1/30sec f/6.7

spider-t · February 2, 2007

Six Bees wrote:

Hi All! I have been working on trying to figure out how to light my backdrop so that I get the no detail white. I have included two images from today to share, I think the final result is fairly good, but I still have some questions. It seems that I always have to play with the exposure in camera raw (although these shots are not the best example of how "off" my exposures have been). Keep in mind I am self taught here, so my terminology may be off, and it takes me a while to figure all this stuff out. I am afraid that if I change exposure compensation in the camera, I will be making it more difficult to fix after the fact if I end up over exposing the shot. So, should I not worry too much and just fix the raw file?
I had also done a ton of test shots trying to light the drop, starting at ISO 200 and then changing the shutter speed, then moving on to the next ISO setting and again changing the shutter speed...and so on because even if I read about it, I have to "see" what it does. Well anyway...I had the camera (Nikon D70s) in shutter priority mode. I in my train of thought is that I mostly will be shooting children so I want to see how to get the detailess white and use a fast shutter speed. Fromwhat I remember, it seemed that I had to have a high ISO to use a pretty quick shutterspeed...but then there was a ton of noise. So, how can I get the no detail white, with faster shutter speed at a lower ISO?? My brain just can not get wrapped around this. I think I am closing in on it, but I am still far from really knowing how to do this. Here are some samples that ended up ok after playing in cs2 a bit. Can anyone help me toward getting it "right" or closer to right without a ton of manipulation after the fact? I also would love any help or suggestions in setting this up correctly, and setting my camera correctly. I am also wondering (didn't have time to reshoot it today to see), but would the white under the plexiglass be whiter if I had my lights closer to the subject? This was my first attempt at the reflection thing too.
Below are the two images I have the befores and afters with the settings in hopes that it would be helpful in your helping me! Thanks in advance.

When I want a white background, I light the backdrop 2 stops higher than the front of my subject. Just enough to overexpose, but not too much to cause the light to blead around the edges of my subject.

The way you do this is to set up the lights that are pointing directly at your backdrop, hold up your light meter on the backdrop and measure. Then set up your main light on your subject and make sure it measures 2 stops less. Does that make sense?

For settings, I use an ISO between 100-200 for portraits. I shoot manual with strobes. Shutter speed usually 125, aperture varies depending on what I'm looking for in depth of field.

Hope this helps,
Trish

gmonkeh · February 2, 2007

If you're using strobes your shutterspeed has no effect on the exposure whatsoever. I usually set it to 1/125th or 1/250th depending on how much ambient lighting I want to let in. Just choose an aperture size and set your lights and meter them accordingly.

Alex

Scott_Quier · February 2, 2007

Combining the excellent information above, and summarizing, here's how this is done:

Working in a studio setting, where one has nearly complete control, I find it much easier to work with the camera in Manual Mode, thus controlling all three factors of the exposure (shutter speed, aperture, and ISO).
Set your shutter speed to anything less than or equal to your x-sycn speed. The slower the shutter, the more ambient light will play a part in your exposure. In my studio, where I want only light from my strobes to illuminate the subject, I typically set my shutter speed, on my Canon 20D/30D to 1/200 and the ISO between 100 and 200, depending on my mood at the time.
You aperture setting will control the exposure due to your strobe.
If you have a flash light meter, set the power on your stobe and meter it. Set your aperature to the value indicated. If you don't have the meter, set the power and take a series of test shots, altering the aperture until your histogram shows that you have a good exposure.
Using a second strobe, light the background. The exposure on the background, as stated above, should be about 2 stops brighter than your subject exposure, for the exact reasons stated above. If you have a flash meter, this is easy. If not, remember your current lens aperture setting and close it down 2 stops. Set the power on your strobe and take a test shot. Is it correctly exposed? No, alter the power on the strobe, either up or down, until your successive test shots show that it is properly exposed.
Reset the lens aperture to the setting that you remembered.
Place your subject and shoot.

Remember, the smaller the aperture, the more DOF you have. If your DOF is greater than you want, you will need to reduce strobe power or ISO so you can increase aperture. But, since you are wanting to over-expose the background, DOF is not a significant player in seperating your subject from the background.

A final note - the image in your LCD is not a good indicator of the shot that will eventually come out of the camera. The histogram does a much better job of informing you of your exposure. If the histogram is bunched up on the right side and you have a spike at the very right-most portion of the histogram, you have over-exposure issues. In this case, you can close down the aperture, decrease the ISO, decrease the strobe power, or a combination of any or all of the above. I might recommend you change only one variable at a time.

Have fun with this. I am looking forward to seeing more of your shots!

don.townsend · February 2, 2007

Scott_Quier wrote:

A final note - the image in your LCD is not a good indicator of the shot that will eventually come out of the camera. The histogram does a much better job of informing you of your exposure. If the histogram is bunched up on the right side and you have a spike at the very right-most portion of the histogram, you have over-exposure issues. In this case, you can close down the aperture, decrease the ISO, decrease the strobe power, or a combination of any or all of the above. I might recommend you change only one variable at a time.

Have fun with this. I am looking forward to seeing more of your shots!

I just wanted to mention that with regards to the histogram, if you are shooting something with an all white background - especially if there is a lot of background showing, the histogram will show mostly to the right, and if you do somthing low key the histogram will show more to the left. Scott I think is talking about extreme spikes at the left or right edge showing that there is a complete lack of detail (either to highlights or shadows - depending whether it is the right or left edge).

Sorry if this was obvious, I just mistook Scott's comment the first time I read it, so I thought I would bring it up.

Scott_Quier · February 3, 2007

Very good catch!

don.townsend wrote:

I just wanted to mention that with regards to the histogram, if you are shooting something with an all white background - especially if there is a lot of background showing, the histogram will show mostly to the right, and if you do somthing low key the histogram will show more to the left. Scott I think is talking about extreme spikes at the left or right edge showing that there is a complete lack of detail (either to highlights or shadows - depending whether it is the right or left edge).

Sorry if this was obvious, I just mistook Scott's comment the first time I read it, so I thought I would bring it up.

I was mistaken in my response and didn't account for the fact that the background was going to be blown and show up as a spike on the right end of the histogram.

Seneca · February 3, 2007

How cute love it.

P.S. Got your information - I can't thank you enough...thank you thank you thank you.

Six Bees · February 4, 2007

Firstly, thank you all for even LOOKING at this post! I know that many probably had an answer for me, but it takes time to type...sooo thank you all who typed! Anyway, what you all have written is not much different than what I have read, and I guess that is part of my problem...reading it vs seeing someone do it if you know what I mean. I think the biggest, is that I do not have a light meter (how horrible is that...seriously) so I can not be sure that I am getting the drop two steps from the key light. I was wondering if there were any other way to get even an idea if you were close. I have just placed them, and took test shots. Again, I did more test shots...but this time did ALL the setting on manual (which I am usually terrified of doing), but thank you Scott for recommending. I just started with one thing, kept changing that, then set it back and then started messing with another setting...etc.
I have use continuous lights. I have a set that I purchased inexpensively about four to five years ago...so I know that sooner rather than later I should be replacing those but when I bought them I really didn't consider ever doing this more than just taking portraits of my own children. So, that said does the quality and output of my lights factor in to why I seem to have to have an ISO of 400 or 500 with a slow shutter speed to get this close to looking the way I want? I am sure I am missing out on something fundemental here...or that I may just not get to do this easily until I can meter the light. What I am concerned about mostly at this point is that I want to shoot children, so I want to use a faster shutterspeed. So, if anyone has any imput....great!!!!! Even if it is....ummmmm buy a meter already dummy!
Here are some test shots I took tonight of my dearest. The white is with no adjusting to the exposure post camera. It was taken at ISO 500 1/60 f4.5 (oh and he was thrilled to be posing at this point as you can tell)

here are some other shots that I took of him using two different drops

Thanks again for looking! I am photographing some friends from church tomorrow..wish me luck!!!!! Oh, and pray I have this lighting down well enough so that their shots are acceptable!
Carrie

Scott_Quier · February 4, 2007

Six Bees wrote:

Firstly, thank you all for even LOOKING at this post! I know that many probably had an answer for me, but it takes time to type...sooo thank you all who typed! Anyway, what you all have written is not much different than what I have read, and I guess that is part of my problem...reading it vs seeing someone do it if you know what I mean. I think the biggest, is that I do not have a light meter (how horrible is that...seriously) so I can not be sure that I am getting the drop two steps from the key light.

As I indicated above, you don't need a light meter - they just make life so much easier.

Six Bees wrote:

I was wondering if there were any other way to get even an idea if you were close. I have just placed them, and took test shots. Again, I did more test shots...but this time did ALL the setting on manual (which I am usually terrified of doing), but thank you Scott for recommending. I just started with one thing, kept changing that, then set it back and then started messing with another setting...etc.

This is probably the best way to practice. Changing just one thing at a time is how you best learn what effect that one thing has on your photograph.

Six Bees wrote:

I have use continuous lights. I have a set that I purchased inexpensively about four to five years ago...so I know that sooner rather than later I should be replacing those but when I bought them I really didn't consider ever doing this more than just taking portraits of my own children. So, that said does the quality and output of my lights factor in to why I seem to have to have an ISO of 400 or 500 with a slow shutter speed to get this close to looking the way I want? I am sure I am missing out on something fundemental here...or that I may just not get to do this easily until I can meter the light.

With exposure settings as you indicate, I am suspecting power is an issue. It's very difficult to get enough light from a hot lights to greatly reduce the ISO and shutter speed with out also cooking the subject, the room, etc - hot lights are named such for a reason.

Six Bees wrote:

What I am concerned about mostly at this point is that I want to shoot children, so I want to use a faster shutterspeed. So, if anyone has any imput....great!!!!! Even if it is....ummmmm buy a meter already dummy!
Carrie

OK, you asked for it. Buy a meter already, dummy!

Seriously, I light meter will make life easier.

What will make your life a lot easier, since you are intending to shoot children who will not sit still (especially not under hot lights), is one or more decent strobes. AB (www.alienbees.com) are in good repute at the moment. I have three (AB800) and really like them.

If you are leaning toward getting strobes and you are also thinking about getting a light meter, be sure to get one that will measure both ambient (constant) light as well as flash - buy the right one once rather than buy the wrong one, and then turn around and buy the right one the second time.

spider-t · February 14, 2007

I'll even throw a recommendation your way. There are lots of good meters, but I've really enjoyed this Sekonic 358.

cheers,
Trish

Scott_Quier · February 14, 2007

spider-t wrote:

I'll even throw a recommendation your way. There are lots of good meters, but I've really enjoyed this Sekonic 358.

cheers,
Trish

saurora · February 14, 2007

Well, I don't know about Six Bees, but I just added this to my "wishlist" at B&H!!! Just a few more things to buy and I'm done............right!!!

urbanaries · February 14, 2007

saurora wrote:

Just a few more things to buy and I'm done............right!!!

That's a good one, Saurora! :lol4

kapalua · February 14, 2007

here is a book on the subject
"lighting techniquest for high key portrait photography" by Norman Phillips.

Laurence Kim
Seattle Wedding Photographer

photoshow · February 14, 2007

OK, I know that I am not known here but a quick look at my Models Gallery at http://www.realdealphotography.smugmug.com/Models and you will see I do a lot of full body isolations over white. If you want to get a pure #ffffff background coming right out of the camera there is one thing that will help you more then anything else. Of course you still need to light the background hotter then the subject but you can prevent that 5-10% grey that you are struggling with a simple camera setting.

When taking your reading with the in camera light meter make sure your in camera metering is set to SPOT not Matrix. Anything other then SPOT metering will give you an exposure based on an AVERAGE meter reading which includes the light falling on the subject as well as the light from the background and the result will be areas of 5-10% grey around the perimeters of the background.

Simply set your camera to Spot Metering and meter right off your subjects eyes and you will be amazed at the difference you get.

System · February 15, 2007

photoshow wrote:

When taking your reading with the in camera light meter make sure your in camera metering is set to SPOT not Matrix. Anything other then SPOT metering will give you an exposure based on an AVERAGE meter reading which includes the light falling on the subject as well as the light from the background and the result will be areas of 5-10% grey around the perimeters of the background.

Simply set your camera to Spot Metering and meter right off your subjects eyes and you will be amazed at the difference you get.

Doh! So simple...I'm an idiot sometimes.

pathfinder · February 15, 2007

Trish is right. The Sekonic 358.

Get it with a flash trigger to trigger a Pocket Wizard!! Now that is the cat's meow!!

LiquidAir · February 15, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

Trish is right. The Sekonic 358.

Get it with a flash trigger to trigger a Pocket Wizard!! Now that is the cat's meow!!

I have one PW with mine which I use to trigger the camera shutter. I then have an ST-E2 on camera to trigger the flashes.

As for getting a digital white background without a light meter, here's how I'd go about it:

Set up your background with no subject. I light it with two strobes, one from each side to get even lighting without splashing too much light on the subject. Set both strobes on manual and up to full power. Stop down to f/22 and take a shot. You should see a narrow spike somewhere in the histogram. Open up the apeture stop by stop until that spike slams up against the right side. Be careful not to open it up any more than you have to.

Now place your subject in the scene and take a shot still without your main light. Hopefully you subject will be at least a stop underexposed; otherwise you have too much spill from your backround.

If you are using in camera metering on your main flash, then you can follow photoshow's recommendation and spot (or partial) meter on your subject and tweak the exposure with FEC. If your main flash is manual then you will need to manually adjust the power to get the exposure right. This is where a flash meter would be the most useful.

StudioTime · January 6, 2010

My Guide on how to light a white background for photography
Hi all

I thought I would join in the discussion and give you my advice.

I have been a working professional photographer in London UK for over 10 years now. I started out assisting at studios like big sky, holborn and spring where I had to light large cove and seamless paper (colorama) backdrops on a daily basis.

I have put together a PDF guide on how to light a white backdrop it is a PDF and can be downloaded from http://www.londonphotographycourses.co.uk/Lighting_white_backdrop_photography.pdf

The guide is based on a common studio set-up using studio flash (strobe) lights. These can be speedlights, and if that is what you use then you want an EV difference of +1 EV on your backdrop.

Any problems just ask me.

VayCayMom · January 7, 2010

Forgive me for kidnapping this thread for a moment.

Tomorrow I do a head shot for a children's pageant.
I have the white background, so all of this info is great. I have the 358 Sekonic, been studying how to use it. It is not sinking in yet...

Does this model measure both types of light?

WingsOfLovePhoto · January 8, 2010

I work with white in the studio everyday...my clients favorite. My settings are ISO 100--- (I don't understand your need to raise yours when you are using studio lights especially with the D70 which doesn't do well with higher iso's) I photograph mostly children and keep my shutter speed up to compensate 1/200 in the studio though like Scott said it really doesn't matter and I am on F8 all the time unless I have a larger group. I light the white at F11 and the key light at F8 and use a reflector for fill. I use the sekonic 359 that was mentioned. With Nikon and the histogram I find that you will get "blinkies" on your LCD that indicate loss of detail but when you put it into lightroom or ps they really aren't so be aware of that and shoot only in RAW. Hot lights are not the best for children. I use White Lightning and alien bees for my lights with softboxes... 3 lights at this moment but thinking of getting another.... I don't think what you have done is bad at all though. Sometimes with Nikon you will have to bring up the brightness...or so I have found in my experience.... here is an example of these settings....

WingsOfLovePhoto · January 8, 2010

VayCayMom wrote:

Forgive me for kidnapping this thread for a moment.
Tomorrow I do a head shot for a children's pageant.
I have the white background, so all of this info is great. I have the 358 Sekonic, been studying how to use it. It is not sinking in yet...

Does this model measure both types of light?

Took me awhile to learn the Sekonic but yes it measures in 3 ways. Ambient. Flash and flash with a cord to be more accurate. . What kind of light will you be using for your shoot?

VayCayMom · January 8, 2010

WingsOfLovePhoto wrote:

Took me awhile to learn the Sekonic but yes it measures in 3 ways. Ambient. Flash and flash with a cord to be more accurate. . What kind of light will you be using for your shoot?

I will have a large N facing window, white background, plus all walls are white and I have a Nikon sb 800 for off camera. I also have a sb 600 but I have not had success in making a second light flash...

I also have floor lamp with a long twisty neck that can use, and of course reflectors.

working on lighting my white backdrop...

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