>> vote for challenge 29 winner <<

Andy · January 10, 2005

please vote for challenge 29 winner.

finalists chosen by andy and ginger_55. we matched on seven out of 10.

judyfeuss - piano player

lynnma - snowball fight

nir - plea

mitchell - beach spectacles

jdsphotography - gun

cletus - ipod photo

doctorit - puckerup

wxwax - shaver

seemoon - sushi

purified - in good spirits
674280

DoctorIt · January 10, 2005

great shots, as usual!

Hey Lynn - way to squeak that one in last second! I hadn't even seen that photo until I just went to vote!

Nee7x7 · January 10, 2005

Great Photos!!! (they made it hard to choose!)
...but I was also kinda disappointed to see that one of my favorites wasn't included in the final group (this is the 2nd time that's happened since I joined!)

I'm wondering...why can't all the photos entered be voted on? Seems like the number of entries is manageable enough to do that...but hey...I'm just a newbie here~

ps. OT, I'd also like to see more smilies such as a simple wink, a smile without teeth showing...just a couple of "normal" ones (the animations are great, but sometimes I just want a mona lisa smile)

lynnma · January 10, 2005

DoctorIt wrote:

great shots, as usual!

Hey Lynn - way to squeak that one in last second! I hadn't even seen that photo until I just went to vote!

Thanks Eric.. I'm shocked at the voting!:D

Seamus · January 10, 2005

lynnma wrote:

Thanks Eric.. I'm shocked at the voting!:D

you shouldn't be, its a great shot, it makes me feel like ducking, did the snowball hit the camera?

snapapple · January 10, 2005

Way to go Lynn,

lynnma wrote:

Thanks Eric.. I'm shocked at the voting!:D

Lynn, I loved your shot from the first moment I saw it. You got my vote.

Sure wish Andy would give comments. I thought my shot was pretty good. I'm very disappointed.

Nee7x7 · January 10, 2005

Nee7x7 wrote:

...but I was also kinda disappointed to see that one of my favorites wasn't included in the final group (this is the 2nd time that's happened since I joined!)

Just to clarify...it wasn't my own entries I was referring to, cuz I haven't entered any of the challenges yet, but I was disappointed to see that some of the photos I enjoyed looking at (taken by other photogs) were not included.

By the way, it was still very hard to choose which one to vote for!!! Fine photos by all (but I'm still kicking myself that I missed the cutoff time...my pic was a humorous one, but the clock struck 12 noon before I could get it uploaded...sigh)~

Andy · January 10, 2005

Nee7x7 wrote:

...but I was also kinda disappointed to see that one of my favorites wasn't included in the final group (this is the 2nd time that's happened since I joined!)

I'm wondering...why can't all the photos entered be voted on? Seems like the number of entries is manageable enough to do that...but hey...I'm just a newbie here~

ps. OT, I'd also like to see more smilies such as a simple wink, a smile without teeth showing...just a couple of "normal" ones (the animations are great, but sometimes I just want a mona lisa smile)

hi nee

we have a max of 10 that can be voted on, it's a limit of the polling function of our forum software. it's not perfect, but we've been doing it this way for a while now. the recent change is that in addition to me, as host, the previous winner helps pick the 10 finalists. on average, the guest and i usually match on 7 or 8 of the finalists....

cheers!

DavidTO · January 10, 2005

andy wrote:

hi nee

we have a max of 10 that can be voted on, it's a limit of the polling function of our forum software. it's not perfect, but we've been doing it this way for a while now. the recent change is that in addition to me, as host, the previous winner helps pick the 10 finalists. on average, the guest and i usually match on 7 or 8 of the finalists....

cheers!

How do you decide between the other 3? Arm wrestle?

Andy · January 10, 2005

snappy's blood oranges

snapapple wrote:

Lynn, I loved your shot from the first moment I saw it. You got my vote.

Sure wish Andy would give comments. I thought my shot was pretty good. I'm very disappointed.

yours was very close, but for me, just got edged out, snappy. i like the idea, i think i would have liked to see a lower camera perspective, and to make the shot more interesting, who knows, maybe dh or some kids at the breakfast table, oof in the background... anyhow, the shot was technically well done, the movement of the juicer and the flowing of the juice coming into the glass.

Andy · January 10, 2005

DavidTO wrote:

How do you decide between the other 3? Arm wrestle?

yes, and ginger is freakishly strong!

aero-nut · January 10, 2005

I was disappointed also, snap. I would definitely like to hear comments as to why some of my favorite photos didn't make the cut. I would also like to hear why my submission didn't make the cut (not to sound stuck up or anything, I just want to know what I should do better next time).

Anyway, my two cents.

landrum · January 11, 2005

I have also been disapointed by not making the cut on my entries. While it would be nice to have some input on what was lacking, I understand that it is very time conusming just selecting the finalists. How long would it take to comment on the other 20+ entries that didn't make it? Unless everyone wants to chip in to give Andy a raise (or just a salary) so he can quit his day job, I think that we should be happy with the very valuable service he does provide us!

Thanks again, Andy!

snapapple · January 11, 2005

Thanks for the feedback Andy,

andy wrote:

yours was very close, but for me, just got edged out, snappy. i like the idea, i think i would have liked to see a lower camera perspective, and to make the shot more interesting, who knows, maybe dh or some kids at the breakfast table, oof in the background... anyhow, the shot was technically well done, the movement of the juicer and the flowing of the juice coming into the glass.

I really appreciate your taking the extra time to give me an answer. I guess you really don't care for the bare bones look of the studio setup shot. I know from the types of pictures you post that you prefer more lifelike candids. That is just not what I was trying to do here. I feel better knowing that the style just did not appeal to you. I had a great learning experience with all of the shots I did and I am happy with the quality of most of them. The learning experience is what most of us are here for. When you don't get feedback though, it's like handing in your term paper and not receiving a grade. You may feel sure you did a great job, but you still want to know how you were rated. Thanks again.

snapapple · January 11, 2005

I am happy Laurie...

landrum wrote:

I have also been disapointed by not making the cut on my entries. While it would be nice to have some input on what was lacking, I understand that it is very time conusming just selecting the finalists. How long would it take to comment on the other 20+ entries that didn't make it? Unless everyone wants to chip in to give Andy a raise (or just a salary) so he can quit his day job, I think that we should be happy with the very valuable service he does provide us!

Thanks again, Andy!

Laurie,
Just so you can have a little feedback, I want you to know that your entry would have been among my picks for the 10 finalists. I think it was outstanding for it's beautiful colors, composition and technical quality. I know that we can't all make the 10. There are just too many entries. When I think I have done some of my best work and several other people, who's work I respect, also think it's good, I just wondered how Andy felt about it. My entry this time was very different from my usual style and I felt a greater need for feedback. Andy has said in the past to ask the questions here, so I did. I certainly did not mean to sound ungrateful. I think Andy knows that I appreciate how much effort he puts in here. Having participated in the judging, I know from experience how much time it takes. I said, "I wish Andy would comment." and he did. And I really appreciate that.

DoctorIt · January 11, 2005

Landrum, and others,
Andy used to comment on ALL the photos a while back in the fledgling stages of the photo challenges. At some point things got a little "crazy" around here, there was actually a bit of Andy-bashing for how the challenges were being handled and so on. I subsequently stopped reading for a bit, but I feel things are a lot better now. There's just no way anyone should be expected to comment on all entries, especially if their numbers continue to grow - that is of course the hope. The ideal is that you'll get lots of comments by submitting a comments thread for your image before you enter it in the challenge. I think this is working very well for most, if not all people. I tend to agree with the "you give what you get", so if you're just entering a *free* challenge without getting into the comments threads, then you shouldn't be expecting much feedback for yourself, right? Laurie, you in particular had a comments thread, so I reckon you understand this concept.

ut now I will venture a comment of my own - I've noticed many of the comments threads have turned into "which do you like best". This is fine, but when I submit for comments I add things like "I chose this composition, do you agree?", "I toned this color for this reason, does it work?", etc. I think a huge strength of this forum is how friendly it is, which is great. Eh, on the other hand, you almost have to ask for critiscism. Too many nice folk here are too eager to just say "hey, nice shot". Although that's nice, I can understand your frustration with not being able to grow from that.

Finally, I noticed a lot of the entries struggled with first person. It's not rude of me to say, there were a lot of hands. I think Ginger commented somwhere that hands are tough, they need some emotion to go along with them. Without that emotion, the shot had to be technically perfect, right? Don't know what else to say to that, I'm no pro, I'm a scientist, I make observations and struggle with conclusions.

Mitchell · January 11, 2005

Unfortunately, photography is an art and not an exact science. We all may not agree with the selections, but it seems fair to have two judges select the finalists. The place to get criticism on the photos is before the contest here in the forum. It seems unrealistic to have the judges critique every entry. They have already made tough choices and don't want to hurt any feelings. Just get on with it and work on the next challenge.

On an unrelated note, I think it was really underhanded how Lynn snuck her photo in under the wire!!! Great picture which got my vote. What really hurt was my dashed hopes for my picture after I ducked out of the way of that snowball.

'til next time.... Mitch

lynnma · January 11, 2005

Mitchell wrote:

Unfortunately, photography is an art and not an exact science. We all may not agree with the selections, but it seems fair to have two judges select the finalists. The place to get criticism on the photos is before the contest here in the forum. It seems unrealistic to have the judges critique every entry. They have already made tough choices and don't want to hurt any feelings. Just get on with it and work on the next challenge.

On an unrelated note, I think it was really underhanded how Lynn snuck her photo in under the wire!!! Great picture which got my vote. What really hurt was my dashed hopes for my picture after I ducked out of the way of that snowball.

'til next time.... Mitch

landrum · January 11, 2005

snapapple wrote:

Laurie,
Just so you can have a little feedback, I want you to know that your entry would have been among my picks for the 10 finalists. I think it was outstanding for it's beautiful colors, composition and technical quality. I know that we can't all make the 10. There are just too many entries. When I think I have done some of my best work and several other people, who's work I respect, also think it's good, I just wondered how Andy felt about it. My entry this time was very different from my usual style and I felt a greater need for feedback. Andy has said in the past to ask the questions here, so I did. I certainly did not mean to sound ungrateful. I think Andy knows that I appreciate how much effort he puts in here. Having participated in the judging, I know from experience how much time it takes. I said, "I wish Andy would comment." and he did. And I really appreciate that.

Snappy, PLEASE don't think that my comment was directed to you in any way. It was really just meant to be a general reminder for everyone so people didn't start "bashing" Andy as they did when he said he wasn't going to comment on the final 10 anymore. I certainly didn't take your comment to be ungrateful in any way, and I don't think that anyone else did either. You are certainly one of the more respected memebers on this forum. Also, I thank you very much for your praise on my photo. I do appreciate it!

To respond to Doc...I agree that the critique posting is ideal for the feedback we all crave. I also think that we aren't asking the right questions to receive the proper feedback; well, at least I'm not. You are right that most people are too nice and are more apt to give a "good job" instead of a "good start...now what about tweaking this...". There are plenty of talented members, however, that do give wonderful feedback. Let's learn from them and build on it. That is what this is all about; learning and extending yourself beyond your boundries.

Okay, that's my nickle's worth...

landrum · January 11, 2005

...and Lynn, well done on that snowball! I want to duck everytime I see it!!!

lynnma · January 11, 2005

landrum wrote:

...and Lynn, well done on that snowball! I want to duck everytime I see it!!!

Thanks Landrum... got me smack in the face

Nee7x7 · January 12, 2005

DoctorIt wrote:

Landrum, and others,
Andy used to comment on ALL the photos a while back in the fledgling stages of the photo challenges. At some point things got a little "crazy" around here, there was actually a bit of Andy-bashing for how the challenges were being handled and so on. I subsequently stopped reading for a bit, but I feel things are a lot better now. There's just no way anyone should be expected to comment on all entries, especially if their numbers continue to grow - that is of course the hope. The ideal is that you'll get lots of comments by submitting a comments thread for your image before you enter it in the challenge. I think this is working very well for most, if not all people. I tend to agree with the "you give what you get", so if you're just entering a *free* challenge without getting into the comments threads, then you shouldn't be expecting much feedback for yourself, right? Laurie, you in particular had a comments thread, so I reckon you understand this concept.

ut now I will venture a comment of my own - I've noticed many of the comments threads have turned into "which do you like best". This is fine, but when I submit for comments I add things like "I chose this composition, do you agree?", "I toned this color for this reason, does it work?", etc. I think a huge strength of this forum is how friendly it is, which is great. Eh, on the other hand, you almost have to ask for critiscism. Too many nice folk here are too eager to just say "hey, nice shot". Although that's nice, I can understand your frustration with not being able to grow from that.

Finally, I noticed a lot of the entries struggled with first person. It's not rude of me to say, there were a lot of hands. I think Ginger commented somwhere that hands are tough, they need some emotion to go along with them. Without that emotion, the shot had to be technically perfect, right? Don't know what else to say to that, I'm no pro, I'm a scientist, I make observations and struggle with conclusions.

Thanks to DoctorIt and to Andy (and others) for the clarification. I didn't mean to open a can of worms with my questions. I understand fully the limitations that are outside our control as far as time and resources go. I run a small photo related website, too...and belong to a handful of others and I know just hard it is to try and fit all those commitments into the available hours in a day!

For Andy, I hope you know I'm a great admirer of yours and my questions weren't meant in any way to be construed as a put down of your efforts here. Gosh, I'd hate to feel responsible for starting any sort of Andy bashing session, though I don't think that's what's happening and I truly hope it will not go there. I agree that with this being a free forum, what's being offered here is really remarkable (and challenge winners get a nice prize, to boot!). I'm in awe of the fact that we are the beneficiaries of so much at no cost...so I got no real complaints at all!

With that said, I'd like to wish everyone the best in Challenge 30! I'll look forward to seeing all your entries, though you may not be seeing any of mine! Besides having time constraints, I seem to have absolutely no creative ideas popping into my poor old brain these days,

! Chances are I'll probably come up with that awesome killer idea one minute after the challenge ends...sigh~

~Nee

ps. I totally agree with what was said about commenting on each others photos...ya gotta give to get, and an honest (but helpful) critique given thoughfully is of far greater worth than a boatload of empty praise~

pps. BTW, my too late to be an entry for challenge 29 had feet instead of hands (but it wasn't that great, so I'll leave it to your imaginations) :smooch

Andy · January 12, 2005

nee, no worries at all

this topic has come up before, it was, pretty heated, but we all came out better for it. i do try and jump in when i can, and i will always respond if someone asks me "hey why didn't i make the cut...?"

it's a joy to watch the participants learn and grow as photographers, particularly through the comments threads prior to submission of an entry ... that's really where the real learning and spirit of the challenges is exhibited!

still, everyone can do more... be more diligent and thorogh and thoughtful with critiques. in general, this process works well, but i think i'll resurrect a "how to critique" thread if i can dig it up

thanks nee, and all, for the kind words.

Nee7x7 wrote:

Thanks to DoctorIt and to Andy (and others) for the clarification. I didn't mean to open a can of worms with my questions. I understand fully the limitations that are outside our control as far as time and resources go. I run a small photo related website, too...and belong to a handful of others and I know just hard it is to try and fit all those commitments into the available hours in a day!

For Andy, I hope you know I'm a great admirer of yours and my questions weren't meant in any way to be construed as a put down of your efforts here. Gosh, I'd hate to feel responsible for starting any sort of Andy bashing session, though I don't think that's what's happening and I truly hope it will not go there. I agree that with this being a free forum, what's being offered here is really remarkable (and challenge winners get a nice prize, to boot!). I'm in awe of the fact that we are the beneficiaries of so much at no cost...so I got no real complaints at all!

With that said, I'd like to wish everyone the best in Challenge 30! I'll look forward to seeing all your entries, though you may not be seeing any of mine! Besides having time constraints, I seem to have absolutely no creative ideas popping into my poor old brain these days, ! Chances are I'll probably come up with that awesome killer idea one minute after the challenge ends...sigh~

~Nee

ps. I totally agree with what was said about commenting on each others photos...ya gotta give to get, and an honest (but helpful) critique given thoughfully is of far greater worth than a boatload of empty praise~

pps. BTW, my too late to be an entry for challenge 29 had feet instead of hands (but it wasn't that great, so I'll leave it to your imaginations) :smooch

cmr164 · January 12, 2005

landrum wrote:

... It was really just meant to be a general reminder for everyone so people didn't start "bashing" Andy as they did when he said he wasn't going to comment on the final 10 anymore. I certainly didn't take your comment to be ungrateful in any way, and I don't think that anyone else did either. You are certainly one of the more respected memebers on this forum. Also, I thank you very much for your praise on my photo. I do appreciate it! ...

Okay, that's my nickle's worth...

And my nickles worth is that Andy is an excellent photographer with a great eye but also with some huge blind spots for certain shots and a touch of choosing on personality instead of merit. In a word he is a human being. The guest judging process is not transparent and Andy tosses out the guest choices and the guest rejects and puts in his at will. There are a lot of technical solutions to the the prescreening but if Andy will not relinquish his personal filtering even to the guest judges there is little chance he will ever agree to an actual unbiased pre-screen.

There I have said it. The Emperor has no clothes!

Andy · January 12, 2005

huh? okay, you've said it. but charles, i'm unsure of where you get your data from? the average match is 7/10 on my pics and the guest judges pics. are you trying to infer that the guest judge approach isn't working?

i take offense charles at your statement that i toss out guest choices and put in my own, at will. i spend considerable time on this, charles, and take great care in my attempts to be fair to the group and photography in general.

thank goodness this isn't a thankless job.

there, i've said it.

cmr164 wrote:

And my nickles worth is that Andy is an excellent photographer with a great eye but also with some huge blind spots for certain shots and a touch of choosing on personality instead of merit. In a word he is a human being. The guest judging process is not transparent and Andy tosses out the guest choices and the guest rejects and puts in his at will. There are a lot of technical solutions to the the prescreening but if Andy will not relinquish his personal filtering even to the guest judges there is little chance he will ever agree to an actual unbiased pre-screen.

There I have said it. The Emperor has no clothes!

lynnma · January 12, 2005

andy wrote:

huh? okay, you've said it. but charles, i'm unsure of where you get your data from? the average match is 7/10 on my pics and the guest judges pics. are you trying to infer that the guest judge approach isn't working?

i take offense charles at your statement that i toss out guest choices and put in my own, at will. i spend considerable time on this, charles, and take great care in my attempts to be fair to the group and photography in general.

thank goodness this isn't a thankless job.

there, i've said it.

DoctorIt · January 12, 2005

cmr164 wrote:

And my nickles worth is that Andy is an excellent photographer with a great eye but also with some huge blind spots for certain shots and a touch of choosing on personality instead of merit. In a word he is a human being. The guest judging process is not transparent and Andy tosses out the guest choices and the guest rejects and puts in his at will. There are a lot of technical solutions to the the prescreening but if Andy will not relinquish his personal filtering even to the guest judges there is little chance he will ever agree to an actual unbiased pre-screen.

There I have said it. The Emperor has no clothes!

Oh man, not this again.

It's basically Andy's competition, and not that he does, but he can run it however he wants. Any judged competition is that way. Are you looking for some unbiased algorithm on which to judge art? I'd love to see it!

gubbs · January 12, 2005

cmr164 wrote:

And my nickles worth is that Andy is an excellent photographer with a great eye but also with some huge blind spots for certain shots and a touch of choosing on personality instead of merit. In a word he is a human being. The guest judging process is not transparent and Andy tosses out the guest choices and the guest rejects and puts in his at will. There are a lot of technical solutions to the the prescreening but if Andy will not relinquish his personal filtering even to the guest judges there is little chance he will ever agree to an actual unbiased pre-screen.

There I have said it. The Emperor has no clothes!

Charles,
I can only go by my experiences, maybe you know different ? I can only say that in the 2 opportunties I've been lucky enough to judge I haven't found this to be the case.

Andy · January 13, 2005

voting closes in at 1pm nyc time today
puhlese... cast your vote

DoctorIt · January 13, 2005

72 voters - this is really awesome - keep it coming!

>> vote for challenge 29 winner <<

vote for challenge 29 winner 73 votes

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