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Indoors, with ambience

NimaiNimai Registered Users Posts: 564 Major grins
edited March 10, 2007 in Technique
I just had an amazing experience - Super-Andy noticed that a print order from a fund-raiser I had covered was too dark and too red even for SmugMug's legendary pre-print Auto Color. I'm litterally speachless with gratitude - he hand-tweaked the shots and re-printed for the customer.
:bow

134120826-S.jpg ----> 134121179-S.jpg

Of course, I'd rather my shots had been good enough to begin with! It was a challenging environment for me - indoors in a hotel with moody yellow/red lighting. I was shooting with a Canon 30D, 580EX set on E-TTL (but I never noticed the pre-flash!?), and Gary Fong's Lightsphere II Cloud. From shot to shot, I found I needed to adjust the flash manually from -2/3 to -1 step depending on the area. I wanted to preserve the mood and the lighting in the background but have well-exposed subjects. Any suggestions, tutorial-links, or crude RTFM insults welcome! :)
<Off to drop-ship some Texas BBQ to Andy!> ;)

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    mmahoneymmahoney Registered Users Posts: 33 Big grins
    edited March 7, 2007
    Nimai wrote:
    Any suggestions

    Hard to say as I don't know which shooting mode you used .. with Canon it makes a big difference. But I'm guessing Aperture priority mode here mostly because of the underexposed foreground.

    Try shooting in Manual mode with Canon ETTL .. if you use Aperture priority the ETTL defaults to fill mode and often will underexpose the foreground (in this case the smiling couple).

    With Manual mode you set the BG exposure and the ETTL sets the flash for a normally exposed foreground .. often it's spot on but can be tweaked with the FEC.
    Mike
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    LiquidAirLiquidAir Registered Users Posts: 1,751 Major grins
    edited March 7, 2007
    The Lightsphere is essentially a bare bulb and bounces a lot of light off the walls. The wall in the background has a lot of red in it. If the walls near you or the ceiling were in that color scheme could color the light from your flash. There are two options to take care of this: either adjust the white balance in camera to get the color right or shoot RAW and handle it in post.

    Here is how I will typically shoot in a room like in your shot:

    First I look at the ceiling: is it white? If it is, I'll bounce the flash with no modifier. If it isn't I get out my Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer. If I am bouncing, my subjects are standing and the ceiling is only 8 feet, I'll point the flash straight up. If the ceiling is higher or my subjects are sitting down I'll tilt the flash a few degrees behind me.

    Next I set the camera mode to M, the apeture to f/4, the shutter speed to 1/125, and dial the ISO to underexpose the environment by about 1 stop. If I don't like the ISO value I get, I'll either open up the apeture a stop or drag the shutter a bit more. Then I dial in +1 FEC (which is what I find I typically need when bouncing) and pop off a test shot or two. I look at the histogram and adjust my settings to get the levels where I want them. While I am shooting I try to continuously monitor the histogram and make (usually minor) adjustments as I go.
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    NimaiNimai Registered Users Posts: 564 Major grins
    edited March 7, 2007
    Thanks - that's good info.

    I was shooting M. I can't recall if the ceiling was tinted or not.
    When shooting with a lens that can do f/2.8 in-doors I tend to stick to f/2.8 to soak up as much of the background light as possible, but that can screw me when I shoot a group, leaving some members out of focus. I'll do some experiments with f/4 or f/3.5 and the flash... I also need to make sure my E-TTL is working properly.
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 7, 2007
    Nimai wrote:
    Thanks - that's good info.

    I was shooting M. I can't recall if the ceiling was tinted or not.
    When shooting with a lens that can do f/2.8 in-doors I tend to stick to f/2.8 to soak up as much of the background light as possible, but that can screw me when I shoot a group, leaving some members out of focus. I'll do some experiments with f/4 or f/3.5 and the flash... I also need to make sure my E-TTL is working properly.


    When shooting with flash indoors, the shutter speed determines that balance of ambient versus flash. Aperture determines how far you can be from the subject with a given flash power. Shooting at f2.8 for groups will cause someone to be out of focus unless you are very careful AND lucky.

    Shoot in Manual mode on a Canon EOS camera at 1/160th sec or so, with an EOS flash set to ETTL. The flash can be bounced off a white wall or ceiling.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    LiquidAirLiquidAir Registered Users Posts: 1,751 Major grins
    edited March 7, 2007
    pathfinder wrote:
    When shooting with flash indoors, the shutter speed determines that balance of ambient versus flash. Aperture determines how far you can be from the subject with a given flash power. Shooting at f2.8 for groups will cause someone to be out of focus unless you are very careful AND lucky.

    Shoot in Manual mode on a Canon EOS camera at 1/160th sec or so, with an EOS flash set to ETTL. The flash can be bounced off a white wall or ceiling.

    In practice when you are shooting with ETTL-2, setting the aperture to f/2.8 causes the exposure system to lower the flash power and the net result adjusts the balance between flash and ambient just like dragging the shutter does. Try it.
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 7, 2007
    LiquidAir wrote:
    In practice when you are shooting with ETTL-2, setting the aperture to f/2.8 causes the exposure system to lower the flash power and the net result adjusts the balance between flash and ambient just like dragging the shutter does. Try it.

    Yes, I am sure the balance between ambient and strobe is less influenced by shutter speed in ETTL than with a fully manual strobe where the light output is not quenched based on light captured by the sensor.

    Opening the aperture results in a shorter shutter speed rather than a longer one which results in less ambient than a longer shutter speed at a given aperture, doesn't it? I will give it try and see what I find out.

    When I shoot macro in Manual mode with a speedlite in ETTL, I CAN drive the background to black with a high shutter speed in High Speed Synch or balance with ambient by using a slow shutter speed. An EOS speedlite will not drive the background to black for a large group because it lacks the power to illuminate the group high enough to allow shutter speeds of 1/2000th or higher, but for macro it can do this easily.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    LiquidAirLiquidAir Registered Users Posts: 1,751 Major grins
    edited March 8, 2007
    pathfinder wrote:
    Opening the aperture results in a shorter shutter speed rather than a longer one which results in less ambient than a longer shutter speed at a givern aperture, doesn't it? I will give it try and see what I find out.

    In apeture priority, it probably does shorten the shutter speed, but in manual mode it doesn't, of course.
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 8, 2007
    LiquidAir wrote:
    In apeture priority, it probably does shorten the shutter speed, but in manual mode it doesn't, of course.
    I was not speaking about Av but Manual mode. To capture the same amount of ambient light - EV value, as you open the aperture, shutter speed must rise by the same number of stops. If you do not raise the shutter speed but only open the aperture - you do increase the EV and increase the amount of ambient light, of course.

    With ETTL you can open the aperture and not shorten the shutter speed precisely because the EOS strobe will quench itself, but you cannot change the aperture without throwing off a fully manual flash exposure unless you carefully change the strobe to subject distance. Even with ETTL, raising or lowering the shutter speed 2 or 3 stops, will significantly affect the ambient-flash balance. Hence, not a shutter speed of 125th or 160th, but maybe 1/30th or 1/2000th depending on ambient lighting.


    That is why I say that aperture controls the amount of light from the very brief flash exposure, and shutter speed is the variable that controls ambient light exposure. The shutter speed may need to be much higher than standard flash sych speed if in a bright environment.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    LiquidAirLiquidAir Registered Users Posts: 1,751 Major grins
    edited March 8, 2007
    The brighest indoor event lighting I see is EV 8 at ISO 100 and that is pretty rare; I will sometimes see as many as 4 or 5 stops darker than that. In those environments at working distances of around 6 feet, a 580EX has plenty of power to send the background near black if that is what you want. For indoor shooting I am more likely to run up against the minimum power of the flash than the maximum.

    When shooting with a flash indoors I usually start with the camera set to ISO 800, f/4 and 1/125s. In most cases that will undersexpose the ambient a bit. If the ambient is too dark I'll tweak ISO, aperture and shutter speed to bring it up. How I bring the background up depends in the particulars of the shot: when shooting with a short tele it might be f/2.8 at 1/125, when shooting wide it might be f/4 at 1/60. Sometimes I'll split it up: ISO 1000, f/3.5 and 1/100s.
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    mmahoneymmahoney Registered Users Posts: 33 Big grins
    edited March 8, 2007
    And chimp a lot as well
    When shooting flash I always chimp a lot as well .. it's often easy for the camera to get it wrong and if you look at the LCD & historgam every few shots you can get a pretty good feel for what works.

    But I have to say my flash photography got a lot easier when I started shooting in manual mode.
    Mike
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 8, 2007
    LiquidAir wrote:
    When shooting with a flash indoors I usually start with the camera set to ISO 800, f/4 and 1/125s. In most cases that will undersexpose the ambient a bit. If the ambient is too dark I'll tweak ISO, aperture and shutter speed to bring it up. How I bring the background up depends in the particulars of the shot: when shooting with a short tele it might be f/2.8 at 1/125, when shooting wide it might be f/4 at 1/60. Sometimes I'll split it up: ISO 1000, f/3.5 and 1/100s.

    We shoot remarkably similar. I use a 5D and set my ISO at 400, aperture f3.5 - f5.6 at 1/160th in Manual mode with a 580ex in the corner of the room with a diffuser bounced off a white ceiling triggered by an ST-E2. I posted my description of this technique here

    McMahoney I heartily agree with you that Manual Mode is the ticket for flash in the EOS system. The name seems to confuse those of us who learned to use flash years ago - it sounds like there is no control of exposure but the ETTL system does automatically limit exposure very nicely, but the name misleads. I know it took a while for me to figure out that Manual Mode was what I was looking for when shooting Canon system flash.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    LiquidAirLiquidAir Registered Users Posts: 1,751 Major grins
    edited March 8, 2007
    pathfinder wrote:
    We shoot remarkably similar. I use a 5D and set my ISO at 400, aperture f3.5 - f5.6 at 1/160th in Manual mode with a 580ex in the corner of the room with a diffuser bounced off a white ceiling triggered by an ST-E2. I posted my description of this technique here

    I am shooting with a 5D too and I always carry the ST-E2 with me and I use it most of the time.

    You were shooting between EV11 and EV12 which means you weren't getting much ambient. You had the flash well placed in the corner of the room so it was providing both subject light and good room light. That is a great strategy for small rooms where your flash can fill the space. However, in larger spaces you need more power than 580 can kick out to light both your subject and the walls in the background.

    Generally I try to shoot as close to the ambient light as I can get away with which is why I usually start at ISO 800 (which looks really good on the 5D) rather than 400. That gives me faster cycle times on the flash and lets me use very inefficient forms of diffusion. I have taken shots bouncing off a wall as much 15 feet away and still had enough light. This way I am also letting the abient light help the flash out. The price for this is often I need to gel the flash (I carry CTO and windowpane green gels in my bag) to match the color temperature of the shadows to the highlights.

    What I do with the flash varies quite a bit depending on the venue. Sometimes I keep it on camera and bounce off the ceiling like this shot:

    117559622-M.jpg

    ISO 800, f/4 1/80s with the 50mm/1.4. This was a simple on camera ceiling bounce with no modifier which works well in places with low ceilings where the walls are not an option for bouncing. The ambient was very dark here, maybe EV3 @ ISO100 so I didn't have much choice but to underexpose the background by a few stops, but deliberately shooting into the christmas lights sets the dynamic range for the background and keeps the shot from looking muddy.

    Another strategy I use is holding the flash in my left hand so I can pick by bounce location on a shot by shot basis:
    126911587-M.jpg

    ISO 400, f/2.8 1/125s 50mm/1.4 This shot was a bounce off a wall behind me and somewhat to camera right. I tend to prefer wall bounces in places with reasonably uncluttered white walls.

    I have also been known to set the flash down on something (shelf, table, chair, anything) pointed at either a wall or the ceiling. And, yes, if all else fails, I keep a stand and a big 60" umbrella in the car.

    The key to shooting candids with a flash is to scout the venue for suitable bounce surfaces and adapt depending on where they are. In situations where there are no good choices for bouncing, you should be prepared and bring your own (hence the umbrella). Finally, remember where your light is going to be coming from when you shoot. Pointing a flash at a wall or ceiling is like cutting a hole to make a big ol' soft window. Learn to see that window light in your mind's eye.
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    NimaiNimai Registered Users Posts: 564 Major grins
    edited March 8, 2007
    Thanks LiquidAir - tons to absorb there! (Hahaha- I crack myself up.)

    Seriously, I had to go look up that Gel stuff! Read up on that here. So much to consider... It would also appear that I need to get myself an ST-E2.
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    LiquidAirLiquidAir Registered Users Posts: 1,751 Major grins
    edited March 8, 2007
    Nimai wrote:
    Thanks LiquidAir - tons to absorb there! (Hahaha- I crack myself up.)

    Seriously, I had to go look up that Gel stuff! Read up on that here. So much to consider... It would also appear that I need to get myself an ST-E2.

    That is where I learned about it. The Strobist site is chock full of information on how to effectively mix flash and ambient. However, he says precious little about candid photography. Everything he writes about has the flash set on manual power which works when you are setting up a shot or when you are long distance from the flash. But when working in close quarters with variable subject distance you are often better off using the in camera flash meter.

    The ST-E2 is great for candid flash photography. It opens huge number of options for lighting. Generally when I walk in the front door of a new venue I have the ST-E2, a 430EX, a Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer and some gels in my bag. The 580EX, a couple light stands and a couple convertable umbrellas wait in the car.
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 8, 2007
    LiquidAir wrote:
    That is where I learned about it. The Strobist site is chock full of information on how to effectively mix flash and ambient. However, he says precious little about candid photography. Everything he writes about has the flash set on manual power which works when you are setting up a shot or when you are long distance from the flash. But when working in close quarters with variable subject distance you are often better off using the in camera flash meter.

    The ST-E2 is great for candid flash photography. It opens huge number of options for lighting.
    Generally when I walk in the front door of a new venue I have the ST-E2, a 430EX, a Lumiquest Pocket Bouncer and some gels in my bag. The 580EX, a couple light stands and a couple convertable umbrellas wait in the car.


    I agree with this statement 100%. Shooting in studio, where you have control of where the lights are and where the subject will stand, and thus the light to subject distance, manual studio strobes are strongly preferred. Trigger the strobes with an incidence flash meter to get your exposure and you are good to go.

    But in the chaos of shooting candids where people are milling about and the last thing you control is the flash to subject distance ( including the distance to bounce surface and back ) an ST-E2 really rules - no wires, and ETTL to do the grunt work of proper exposure for you.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,699 moderator
    edited March 8, 2007
    Pointing a flash at a wall or ceiling is like cutting a hole to make a big ol' soft window. Learn to see that window light in your mind's eye.

    This is a great way to think of using flash. I want to repeat this for many of our readers. Excellent description, LiquidAIr.
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
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    NimaiNimai Registered Users Posts: 564 Major grins
    edited March 10, 2007
    I kept saying that I didn't notice a pre-flash, so I wondered if my E-TTL was working properly. I finally read this dizzyingly detailed article which said, "The delay between the pre-flash and actual flash is so short that the human eye is not able to distinguish between them."
    Well, that explains that...
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