PS Color Setting...HELP

Jackal · January 22, 2005

I am new to PS CS and I am having trouble with skin tones when having EZprint do my pictures. If I use my Canon i960 my pictures come out very nice. The same come out too red when EZPrints does them. Yes, I have used the Tanning opion, but the results turn too yellow.

I have been reading and a post on another site recommends setting the PS color setting at "U.S. Press Defaults". I have had it set to a profile I did after calibrating my monitor usind Adobe Gamma. Could you please help me understand the color setting menu? What setting is trully best when using a press to print your photos?

I may not have included all the information required for a proper response. If so please let me know. I am going crazy having issues with EZPrints and skin tones. I have downloaded their ICC profiles and have them loaded. Still having issues.
Thanks for your help
Carlos C. :scratch

lynnma · January 22, 2005

Jackal wrote:

I am new to PS CS and I am having trouble with skin tones when having EZprint do my pictures. If I use my Canon i960 my pictures come out very nice. The same come out too red when EZPrints does them. Yes, I have used the Tanning opion, but the results turn too yellow.

I have been reading and a post on another site recommends setting the PS color setting at "U.S. Press Defaults". I have had it set to a profile I did after calibrating my monitor usind Adobe Gamma. Could you please help me understand the color setting menu? What setting is trully best when using a press to print your photos?

I may not have included all the information required for a proper response. If so please let me know. I am going crazy having issues with EZPrints and skin tones. I have downloaded their ICC profiles and have them loaded. Still having issues.
Thanks for your help
Carlos C.

Hi Jackal

welcome.. I'm not qualified to answer your question but stand by I'm sure someone will be by very soon and they will be able to help.
Lynn

Jackal · January 22, 2005

Lynn,
Thanks so much for the welcome message. Much appreciated! Looking forward to help when able and learn as much as possible.
Regards
Jackal

lynnma wrote:

Hi Jackal welcome.. I'm not qualified to answer your question but stand by I'm sure someone will be by very soon and they will be able to help.
Lynn

wxwax · January 22, 2005

Hiya Jackal

I'm not gonna move this thread on you just yet, but this is probably best asked in the smugmug support forum.

Jackal · January 22, 2005

Thanks for the tip. You are correct. PLease remove this thread from this forum. I'll try the suggested one.
Regards
Jackal

wxwax wrote:

Hiya Jackal I'm not gonna move this thread on you just yet, but this is probably best asked in the smugmug support forum.

DTMPhotos · January 23, 2005

Jackal - I believe (and at least I've had good print results) if you convert the color space of your files to sRGB. It's possible that they are in some other (Adobe RGB?) or proprietary (some Canon space) and they're not surviving the conversion by EzPrints very well. Give it a try...

Derek

marlinspike · January 23, 2005

Don't bother coverting. Work the whole thing in sRGB (I shoot raw, and set ps cs to do to the raw conversion to srgb). Also, are you sure the reason they come out right on your printer isn't a happy coincidence of miscalibration? Is you monitor calibrated? Also, download the ICC profile that ez prints uses (it's in the help pages on smugmug) and when editing the photos use the icc as a proof color space (if this needs more description, just ask, I'm heading to bed so I don't want to stay up needlessly).
Richard

Jackal · January 23, 2005

Richard,
Thanks for the reply. I have calibrated my monitor using Adobe Gamma. I realize that there are better methods, but I have to wait to get a Spider. For now I have done it visually and had other people review it. While it maynot be perfect, I think it is very close to what Adobe Gamma requires.

Having said that I am still struggling with skin tones. I got the calibration images from EZPrints, but when I set my monitor to them it is dark. Once I adjust may images to that setting the pictures in other monitors look really light.

Here are some examples of my current setting (Adobe Gamma cal, not using EZPrints image calibration).
http://onsetbayphotography.smugmug.com/photos/14119290-M.jpg

http://onsetbayphotography.smugmug.com/photos/14647127-L.jpg

How do they look in your monitor? I am waiting for prints from EZprint on these ones to see if I got better after making a few adjustments. I hope it is since I need to nail the skin tone issue otherwise I will have to purchase a larger format printer and use it for my customers.

I have dowloaded EZPRints ICC profiles and added them to PS. When I do soft proofing with it the yellows/oranges (specially on skin tones) look more pronounced.

My biggest problems have been with very fair skin people. This is an examples of such:
http://onsetbayphotography.smugmug.com/photos/14604118-L.jpg

This one has been adjusted using auto color corection, then using the Smugmug easy method for pleasing skin tones(http://www.smugmug.com/help/skin-tone). I have not received a sample form EZprints yet on this one. However, this one came back noticeable reder:
http://onsetbayphotography.smugmug.com/photos/14048016-M.jpg

Can you share with me your color setting in PS?
Color Setting
Settings:_________________

Working Speaces
RGB: _____
CMYK:______
Gray: _______
Spot: ________

Color Management Policies
RGB: _______
CMYK: _______
Gray: ________

I want to assure that I have this set properly. I am frustrated but know I will find the way sooner or later. Hopefully this forum will set me straight. I appreciate your assistance.

Thanks

marlinspike wrote:

Don't bother coverting. Work the whole thing in sRGB (I shoot raw, and set ps cs to do to the raw conversion to srgb). Also, are you sure the reason they come out right on your printer isn't a happy coincidence of miscalibration? Is you monitor calibrated? Also, download the ICC profile that ez prints uses (it's in the help pages on smugmug) and when editing the photos use the icc as a proof color space (if this needs more description, just ask, I'm heading to bed so I don't want to stay up needlessly).
Richard

marlinspike · January 23, 2005

The second picture of the really light skinned guy seems to som sort of color issue. He definitley looks redder in the second picture than in the first, and his hair isn't as white in the second as in the first

Can you share with me your color setting in PS?
Color Setting
Settings:custom

Working Speaces
RGB:sRGB IECblahblah
CMYK:us webcoated SWOP v2
Gray: dot gain 20%
Spot: dot gain 20%

Color Management Policies
RGB: preserve embedded profiles
CMYK: off
Gray: off

It can be hard to get those red undertones to show up on the monitor versus in print. I think you would benefit from a hardware calibrator, but monitors just don't seem to see the red as well as printers. I've gotten used to having a small redshift on screen translating to a large redshift in print from before I came to smugmug.

Jackal · January 23, 2005

Thanks again.

marlinspike wrote:

The second picture of the really light skinned guy seems to som sort of color issue. He definitley looks redder in the second picture than in the first, and his hair isn't as white in the second as in the first

Can you share with me your color setting in PS?
Color Setting
Settings:custom

Working Speaces
RGB:sRGB IECblahblah
CMYK:us webcoated SWOP v2
Gray: dot gain 20%
Spot: dot gain 20%

Color Management Policies
RGB: preserve embedded profiles
CMYK: off
Gray: off

It can be hard to get those red undertones to show up on the monitor versus in print. I think you would benefit from a hardware calibrator, but monitors just don't seem to see the red as well as printers. I've gotten used to having a small redshift on screen translating to a large redshift in print from before I came to smugmug.

Baldy · January 23, 2005

Hey Jackal,

Good to see you here, and I'm glad you brought this image up again. It's been bothering me for a few weeks.

Everyone, I tried to help Jackal adjust this image,

so it wouldn't appear too red in print from EZ Prints. Usually, it's easy: you look at the CMY values and yellow should be 5% more than magenta, cyan should be 25-50% of magenta.

But what killed me about this image, taken normally with a good camera, is the extremely low values of cyan. It's 1-3% on his face except in the shadows.

Skin it basically red (nearly equal combination of yellow + magenta = red) except for cyan muting the red, which is critical. If EZ Prints is faithful to it's true color mantra, with cyan=2%, the image will be red. We can add yellow but then it will turn to a yellowish red.

I flew down to EZ Prints on Friday and mentioned this image because we had no solution for it. Consumer printers add cyan to mute skin that's too red, so I decided to take a look at the cyan plate and see what could be done. Here it is:

For whatever reason, it's blown out except in the shadows. But the magenta plate looks fine:

So I blended the magenta channel with the cyan channel using Image > Apply Image > Normal > 25% opacity to produce this:

It won't print too red now. I fired off a copy of the original and this to you, Jackal, and one for me to look at. If anything, I may have added too much cyan. It's hard to tell with your eyes on the monitor because you're comparing to the red one on top and by comparison to that it looks a little ghostly. Put other images alongside it in another browser window and it looks different.

But to get good skin tones we have to have real cyan. The other shots you posted looked very good. Dunno why this one would have a blown cyan channel.

It's common for people who photograph red flowers to mess with the cyan channel (increase contrast) to make the rose come alive. It's amazing how powerful the weak channel can be because a little bit of tweaking the weak channel (in this case cyan, which kills red) goes a long way.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Chris

Jackal · January 24, 2005

Glad to hear from you. I appreciate the effort and hope to get the sample soon. I'll let you know how it looks to me when I do.

I did obtained a color calibration print form EZPrints and used it as mentioned in their web page...adjust your monitor to match it (brightness, colors). When I do my monitor turns dark for everything else. The problem I have if I leave it like that is that if I adjust pictures to looks good (important to customers looking at the pictures in their monitors) it looks washed out. Yesterday I took a picture of my daughter and did moniro adjustments to it. Can you tell me how it looks in your monitor? I bet if I order it it will come darker and oversaturated.

Please do not take this as bashing; I am trully trying to solve my disparity issues. Your service is very convinient and would love to use it.

Here is the picture: How does it look in your monitor? Does it appear too light/dark or just right?
Thanks
Jackal

Baldy wrote:

Hey Jackal,

Good to see you here, and I'm glad you brought this image up again. It's been bothering me for a few weeks.

Everyone, I tried to help Jackal adjust this image,

so it wouldn't appear too red in print from EZ Prints. Usually, it's easy: you look at the CMY values and yellow should be 5% more than magenta, cyan should be 25-50% of magenta.

But what killed me about this image, taken normally with a good camera, is the extremely low values of cyan. It's 1-3% on his face except in the shadows.

Skin it basically red (nearly equal combination of yellow + magenta = red) except for cyan muting the red, which is critical. If EZ Prints is faithful to it's true color mantra, with cyan=2%, the image will be red. We can add yellow but then it will turn to a yellowish red.

I flew down to EZ Prints on Friday and mentioned this image because we had no solution for it. Consumer printers add cyan to mute skin that's too red, so I decided to take a look at the cyan plate and see what could be done. Here it is:

For whatever reason, it's blown out except in the shadows. But the magenta plate looks fine:

So I blended the magenta channel with the cyan channel using Image > Apply Image > Normal > 25% opacity to produce this:

It won't print too red now. I fired off a copy of the original and this to you, Jackal, and one for me to look at. If anything, I may have added too much cyan. It's hard to tell with your eyes on the monitor because you're comparing to the red one on top and by comparison to that it looks a little ghostly. Put other images alongside it in another browser window and it looks different.

But to get good skin tones we have to have real cyan. The other shots you posted looked very good. Dunno why this one would have a blown cyan channel.

It's common for people who photograph red flowers to mess with the cyan channel (increase contrast) to make the rose come alive. It's amazing how powerful the weak channel can be because a little bit of tweaking the weak channel (in this case cyan, which kills red) goes a long way.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Chris

Baldy · January 24, 2005

Jackal wrote:

(important to customers looking at the pictures in their monitors) it looks washed out. Yesterday I took a picture of my daughter and did moniro adjustments to it. Can you tell me how it looks in your monitor? I bet if I order it it will come darker and oversaturated.

Hi Jackal,

I have to confess that we believe the words of death are, "it looked good on my calibrated monitor." I have two hardware-calibrated monitors side-by-side and this shot looks different on both. One is an LCD and another a CRT. Monitors are getting brigher, especially LCDs and unfortunately it's not usually possible to know whether your customer is on a Mac (very bright) or a PC (darker, but by how much depends).

But the biggest offender is your eyes, which are hard to calibrate. Human eyes remove color casts, which the inks in prints don't. So when you stare at an image on your monitor you lose persective on whether it has a red, yellow, blue, or geen cast.

Just to illustrate, I'll place both images side-by-side to take away the self-adjusting nature of your eyes and you can see how different these images are in terms of redness and brightness:

Having said that, the photo of your daughter is beautiful and has all the normal skin values of cyan, magenta, and yellow. It has a good cyan plate.

It appears a little dark to me and I'd expect a print of it to be darker than you're probably guessing, but it depends on your taste in prints.

I hope this helps.

Thanks,
Baldy

rainforest1155 · January 25, 2005

Jackal wrote:

Here is the picture: How does it look in your monitor? Does it appear too light/dark or just right?

It looks just right to me and I also had problems that my monitor was set up to bright. I solved it by using different graphic card presets which I can easily switch, when I need the monitor to be brighter, e.g. for watching a movie.

Good luck with your prints,
Sebastian

onethumb · January 25, 2005

Jackal wrote:

Glad to hear from you. I appreciate the effort and hope to get the sample soon. I'll let you know how it looks to me when I do.

I did obtained a color calibration print form EZPrints and used it as mentioned in their web page...adjust your monitor to match it (brightness, colors). When I do my monitor turns dark for everything else. The problem I have if I leave it like that is that if I adjust pictures to looks good (important to customers looking at the pictures in their monitors) it looks washed out. Yesterday I took a picture of my daughter and did moniro adjustments to it. Can you tell me how it looks in your monitor? I bet if I order it it will come darker and oversaturated.

Please do not take this as bashing; I am trully trying to solve my disparity issues. Your service is very convinient and would love to use it.

Here is the picture: How does it look in your monitor? Does it appear too light/dark or just right?
Thanks
Jackal

Baldy's the color expert, not me, but FYI:

On both of my high-end monitors, also side-by-side, this shot looks great. Not too dark, just right. (Of course, it looks different on each monitor, despite both being expensive and calibrated. Welcome to the wonderful world of monitors).

Don

wxwax · January 25, 2005

onethumb wrote:

On both of my high-end monitors, also side-by-side, this shot looks great. Not too dark, just right. (Of course, it looks different on each monitor, despite both being expensive and calibrated. Welcome to the wonderful world of monitors).

Don

That's how it looks at home and at work.

PS Color Setting...HELP

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