The next question: A good flash

Shima · April 23, 2007

Alright so after the very lengthy and much appreciated post about what L lens I should buy once I save up, I have decided to save up for the 24-105L that canon makes...

... but then I'm sitting back and thinking, I should probably get a nice flash to accompany this saving fiasco, so please shower me yet again with all your ideas on what flash is the best.

I will primarily use flash for indoor events, ie dance parties, friend / family weddings, and the like... I may also use flash for fill on days when people just aren't getting lit by the sun correctly, but more prominantly it will be for my indoor usage with people.

That being said, and considering that I plan to use it with the 24-105L once I've saved up enough money to own said lens, thoughts?

The camera body is the Rebel XTi (400D).

Thanks again everyone

ziggy53 · April 23, 2007

I use a Sigma EF-500 DG Super E-TTL Shoe Mount Flash, and I think it offers a very nice value for modern Canon dSLR cameras. It supports E-TTL II, as well as high-speed-sync and it has a focus assist light so that you can find focus in low-light or no-light situations.

It has many features that the Canon 580EX Speedlite E-TTL II Shoe Mount Flash has, and most of the power. The Canon 580EX is a better flash, but costs about twice as much. The Canon flash has more power and faster recycling, as well as more power options.

There is also the Canon 580EX II, which adds a few features I can do without.

I use the Sigma flash mostly on a flip flash bracket and with either a bounce card (for low ceilings) or a "scoop" type reflector.

z_28 · April 23, 2007

Budget option - good shape used 550EX.
Current option - 580EX
Future option (soon) - 580EX Mk.II

If you don't like Canons - Metz 54 MZ-3/4 can be good choice too.

Personally, I love 550EX and I'm waiting for Mk.II
But I always use battery packs.

LiquidAir · April 24, 2007

If you are on a budget, I'd consider getting a 430EX and an ST-E2. That is about as cheap as you are going to find a metered off camera flash system and it is the setup I carry when I am travelling light.

Here is a sample taken at a birthday party. ST-E2 on camera, 430EX on a table behind me pointed at the ceiling:

Scott_Quier · April 25, 2007

I have learned the hard way. Buy right, buy once. I have both the Sigma DG Super that Ziggy has referneced and the Canon 580EX. I bought the Sigma first cause, like most, I was looking to save some $$. Found out that there are compromises in every decision.

Everything Ziggy said about the Sigma is spot on. Somethings to consider though. The DG is built less sturdy. This is probably not an issue unless you intend to toss it against the wall or drop it. Something else, the Sigma interface is not as intuitive to use as the 580EX. Since I have both, I turn to the 580 each and every time. The only reason I keep the DG is because, doing weddings, I need a backup. It's there. It has never failed me. But the 580 is just so much nicer to use.

All that being said, if you can find a used flash in good condition that will meet your needs for the near term, you might be able to re-sell that later and recover the major portion of your initial out-lay. People do that with lenses all the time. I wonder if it will work for a flash?

Tee Why · April 26, 2007

I think the Canon 430EX would do nicely at $240 or so.

20DNoob · April 29, 2007

If your thinking of a 430EX you should keep you eyes open for a refurb. Just got mine for $209.

Shima · April 29, 2007

20DNoob wrote:

If your thinking of a 430EX you should keep you eyes open for a refurb. Just got mine for $209.

We sell that where I work and I generally get pretty good discounts on things (it depends on how profitable the item is)... I'll have to employee price check it later and see if it's worth my money...

gryphonslair99 · April 29, 2007

Shima wrote:

We sell that where I work and I generally get pretty good discounts on things (it depends on how profitable the item is)... I'll have to employee price check it later and see if it's worth my money...

I already own a 580EX and was looking to get a second one. However the Metz 58 AF-1 really caught my attention.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=6355&A=details&Q=&sku=472478&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

Seems to have all the features of the 580 plus a USB port for easy upgrades.

ziggy53 · April 29, 2007

gryphonslair99 wrote:

I already own a 580EX and was looking to get a second one. However the Metz 58 AF-1 really caught my attention.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=6355&A=details&Q=&sku=472478&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

Seems to have all the features of the 580 plus a USB port for easy upgrades.

That's a very good find, and another interesting alternative. Fairly new, it hasn't been reviewed too much. I found these:

http://www.popphoto.com/photonews/3327/metz-gets-flashier.html
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/10799/metz_58af1_flashgun/
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=268574
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=293637
http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00JTXr

claudermilk · April 30, 2007

Hmm...That Metz 58 sounds really interesting. I will eventually get a flash, and have been comparing the 580 vs Sigma 500 vs Metz 54--always came back to the Canon if only just. It looks like the new Metz might just sway me since I only intend to use a single flash on the shoe--if I use multiple strobes I might as well pull out the Calumets & get serious about it.

redhawk · May 4, 2007

430 for now?
If you picture yourself using more than one flash for creative or other purposes down the road, you could start with the cheaper 430 (which sounds like it would be appropriate for those purposes you mentioned), and later pick up a 580 (after the price drops), which can be used as a master to trigger the 430.

conurus · May 5, 2007

I would highly recommend a Metz. The older 54 MZ-3 was my workhorse flash.

Poseidon · May 6, 2007

A 5 second recycle time on the Metz is rather slow.... Even 2.5 seconds @ half power is a long time. On a fresh set of rechargeables my 550ex can firs off 2-3 frames @ 8.5fps on my 1D2N! That really comes in handy for a garter/bouqet toss.

pathfinder · May 6, 2007

Even better than that if you load Canon's external battery pack CP-E3 with 8 non rechargeable Li batteries.

Shima · May 6, 2007

Poseidon wrote:

A 5 second recycle time on the Metz is rather slow.... Even 2.5 seconds @ half power is a long time. On a fresh set of rechargeables my 550ex can firs off 2-3 frames @ 8.5fps on my 1D2N! That really comes in handy for a garter/bouqet toss.

The Canon 580EX says 6 seconds at regular and 3 seconds in rapid mode, so it's faster than the 580, no?

B&H says the 550 is discontinued...

rosselliot · May 6, 2007

just to throw in my thoughts.

since you're saqving up for an amazing lens (which I have, you'll love it) why not save up for an amazing flash? My next purchase is the 580 EX II and I know I won't be disappointed because there's nothing higher or better quality to buy. I don't you should EVER regret your purchase, and the only way you're going to not do that is to buy the best in the first place.

- RE

rosselliot · May 6, 2007

Shima wrote:

The Canon 580EX says 6 seconds at regular and 3 seconds in rapid mode, so it's faster than the 580, no?

B&H says the 550 is discontinued...

yes the 580 has a much better recycle time, and it's weather proofed, etc, etc. it's the gold standard of photo flashes now.

conurus · May 6, 2007

If regular mode is 6s and rapid mode is 3s, why don't we use rapid mode at all times? (There is no free lunch, right?)

conurus · May 6, 2007

Ok let me spell out what I really wanted to say. Rapid mode cuts the power in half, therefore you half the recycle time as well.

The real limit to recycle time is not the flash itself, but the battery, because every battery has internal resistance. Flash manufacturers have perfected their technology to squeeze the last bit of recycle time possible, but the ultimate limit to what you can do with 4AA NiMH batteries is their internal resistance, which is much lower than most other battery technologies, but non-zero. You may get a lower recycle time from NiCd, but Cadmium is banned these days, and rightfully so.

As you keep on increasing the power of the flash, recycle time becomes increasingly slower. Canon's solution is to give you a choice: a half-power mode which recycles in 3s and a full power mode which recycles in 6s. The full power mode is actually slightly worse than Metz but that can be accounted for by Canon's slightly higher power.

Flash power is stored in a capacitor before fired by the flash tube. A higher power means a larger capacitor. One potential implementation is to split the capacitor into two capacitors, and you charge only one of them in rapid mode. I wouldn't bore you with the formula for the time it takes to charge a capacitor of a given capacitance, but I could dig it up if you are interested.

430EX has a recycle time of 3.7s, and it has slightly more than 1/2 the power of 580EX. All recycle time differences can be reconciled for by output power differences and if recycle time is important to your application and you can't use a power pack, 430EX would be an economical choice. For myself, I need all the power in the world, and I have to deal with the recycle time issue with a power pack.

Shima · May 6, 2007

rosselliot wrote:

just to throw in my thoughts.

since you're saqving up for an amazing lens (which I have, you'll love it) why not save up for an amazing flash? My next purchase is the 580 EX II and I know I won't be disappointed because there's nothing higher or better quality to buy. I don't you should EVER regret your purchase, and the only way you're going to not do that is to buy the best in the first place.

- RE

Yeah that's kind of where my heart tends to go, do it right the first time type thinking... Presently this thread is really tempting:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=60562

Shima · August 5, 2007

Scott_Quier wrote:

I have learned the hard way. Buy right, buy once. I have both the Sigma DG Super that Ziggy has referneced and the Canon 580EX. I bought the Sigma first cause, like most, I was looking to save some $$. Found out that there are compromises in every decision.

I went with the buy right, buy once theory.

Got the 580EX II (thanks to some money coming in due to being hired for a gig, yay). Don't have people to practice with yet as the husband has been at work all the times I'm not at work, but I've been playing around with it on the dogs:

this is one awesome flash, I'm loving it... still learning how to use it, but I'm loving it so far!

Just wanted to update you all after all the fantastic advice

claudermilk · August 6, 2007

Looks like you're having fun with the flash. I agree with the "buy once, buy right" theory.

That last shot is great, looks like he's (she's?) thinking "would you cut it out already."

Shima · August 6, 2007

claudermilk wrote:

Looks like you're having fun with the flash. I agree with the "buy once, buy right" theory.

That last shot is great, looks like he's (she's?) thinking "would you cut it out already."

The mutt is a she, her name is Gem

The Boston Terrier is a he, his name is Luther. We only own the mutt, the purebred belongs to my husbands parents (we're dog sitting).

I'm really looking forward to using the flash on *real people* soon. So far only my husband has been prey to it, and he's getting sick of my use of it on him, lol.

The next question: A good flash

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