Giving Away Copyright?

kristen · April 22, 2007

I have a client that is interested in just buying the CD of photos after I shoot them? What is the normal going rate that Photographers charge for this, and do you put your water mark on the photos?

THANKS!

chicodawg · April 22, 2007

kristen wrote:

I have a client that is interested in just buying the CD of photos after I shoot them? What is the normal going rate that Photographers charge for this, and do you put your water mark on the photos?

THANKS!

Hmm, what are their intentions? Are they planning to make their own prints? If so, there goes a great source of profit. Do they plan on just using (smaller) images for the web? Or, maybe just to have as a photo CD to view years from now?

You have to take these into consideration. I have read that if they intend to make their own prints, you include the originals, or large-sizes, and charge them a lot - I've seen as high as $500 for the CD - with no watermarks. If they say they'll just use it for a web gallery of their own, they get smaller (4x6 72dpi-quality) images on the CD - some photographers include a CD like this as part of their fees anyway since 4x6 at 72-dpi isn't enough to get a good PRINT but is good enough for the web or computer. A photo CD is similar to the web gallery version.

A client may tell you they just intend on using it for their own gallery or for their computer to view....to avoid the hefty "print-quality" CD. Then, they take the CD and try to make prints (they lied?) and get bad results.

Just remember, the photos you take are YOURS. Once the client gets the originals, you take away any money you might make off the sales of the prints. I made this mistake already and had 160+ images on Smugmug and no sales - they already had them on a CD.

Mike

kristen · April 22, 2007

chicodawg wrote:

Hmm, what are their intentions? Are they planning to make their own prints? If so, there goes a great source of profit. Do they plan on just using (smaller) images for the web? Or, maybe just to have as a photo CD to view years from now?

You have to take these into consideration. I have read that if they intend to make their own prints, you include the originals, or large-sizes, and charge them a lot - I've seen as high as $500 for the CD - with no watermarks. If they say they'll just use it for a web gallery of their own, they get smaller (4x6 72dpi-quality) images on the CD - some photographers include a CD like this as part of their fees anyway since 4x6 at 72-dpi isn't enough to get a good PRINT but is good enough for the web or computer. A photo CD is similar to the web gallery version.

A client may tell you they just intend on using it for their own gallery or for their computer to view....to avoid the hefty "print-quality" CD. Then, they take the CD and try to make prints (they lied?) and get bad results.

Just remember, the photos you take are YOURS. Once the client gets the originals, you take away any money you might make off the sales of the prints. I made this mistake already and had 160+ images on Smugmug and no sales - they already had them on a CD.

Mike

Yeah, they wanted me to give them the pictures for printing. I agree with you. The reason I hesitate to do it at all is because they are going to make copies and pass that around to all of their family and friends also. I will lose those pictures that G-ma and Couson Frank would have bought from me. Also, when they print my work somewhere else I have no idea what It's going to look like when they print them and then they say that I took them. It could give me a bad name to people if they printed them poorly.

So, do you not do this at all anymore?

Do you put them low res on cd's for them? How much do you charge? I don't even know how to make them low res????

Thanks!!! I really appreciate you writing me back about this.

chicodawg · April 22, 2007

I still do it for clients. I'm just not as "giving" as I was. I make a CD of all photo shoots, in low-resolution, as a "freebie". For originals, it depends on how many images. If I charged $250 for 50 images, I wouldn't charge the same if I only took 5 or 10... it's kind of like "what would I make if they purchased the prints from ME?"

That's your situation... how much will you miss by g-ma and Frank going to Walgreens for their prints? And, like you said, if Walgreens gives them a bad quality print, they probably won't blame Walgreens. Also consider how much time you may have put towards post-processing these images. Make sure they only get the focused, color-corrected, eye-popping ones.

To make them low-res, get an image editor. Almost any of them do this. You resize the image and resolution (if available). Most of my images are 3200 x 2400 and up (13" x 10" and higher) with a resolution of about 250 pixels/inch. When resizing, I change the resolution to 72 (or less), and the size to around 4x6 or whatever combination after a crop yields close to a 4x6. This gives a decent screen view. A small watermark doesn't hurt anything, either. Save as a JPG ("J PEG") file. You can adjust the quality of the JPG images so that the saved version even loses some details.

The good thing in your situation is your client told you upfront what their intentions are.

Maybe someone will jump in here and offer their $.02 (US) worth.

Ann McRae · April 22, 2007

Charge enough, and decide what kind of usage licence to put in place (ie - you are not necessarily giving away the copyright).

Only provide files you know will print properly. Include disclaimers about no guarantee on prints.
Several photographers do this, and so you need to join the club.

An example worth checking is Shay Stephen's site:
http://www.shaystephens.com/

ann

kristen · April 23, 2007

kristen wrote:

Yeah, they wanted me to give them the pictures for printing. I agree with you. The reason I hesitate to do it at all is because they are going to make copies and pass that around to all of their family and friends also. I will lose those pictures that G-ma and Couson Frank would have bought from me. Also, when they print my work somewhere else I have no idea what It's going to look like when they print them and then they say that I took them. It could give me a bad name to people if they printed them poorly.

So, do you not do this at all anymore?

Do you put them low res on cd's for them? How much do you charge? I don't even know how to make them low res????

Thanks!!! I really appreciate you writing me back about this.

Thank you for all of your input. I will let you know what I come up with!

kristen · April 23, 2007

Ann McRae wrote:

Charge enough, and decide what kind of usage licence to put in place (ie - you are not necessarily giving away the copyright).

Only provide files you know will print properly. Include disclaimers about no guarantee on prints.
Several photographers do this, and so you need to join the club.

An example worth checking is Shay Stephen's site:
http://www.shaystephens.com/

ann

Thanks for the help. I think I have it figured out. I will post again when I make up my mind for sure!

kristen · April 23, 2007

chicodawg wrote:

I still do it for clients. I'm just not as "giving" as I was. I make a CD of all photo shoots, in low-resolution, as a "freebie". For originals, it depends on how many images. If I charged $250 for 50 images, I wouldn't charge the same if I only took 5 or 10... it's kind of like "what would I make if they purchased the prints from ME?"

That's your situation... how much will you miss by g-ma and Frank going to Walgreens for their prints? And, like you said, if Walgreens gives them a bad quality print, they probably won't blame Walgreens. Also consider how much time you may have put towards post-processing these images. Make sure they only get the focused, color-corrected, eye-popping ones.

To make them low-res, get an image editor. Almost any of them do this. You resize the image and resolution (if available). Most of my images are 3200 x 2400 and up (13" x 10" and higher) with a resolution of about 250 pixels/inch. When resizing, I change the resolution to 72 (or less), and the size to around 4x6 or whatever combination after a crop yields close to a 4x6. This gives a decent screen view. A small watermark doesn't hurt anything, either. Save as a JPG ("J PEG") file. You can adjust the quality of the JPG images so that the saved version even loses some details.

The good thing in your situation is your client told you upfront what their intentions are.

Maybe someone will jump in here and offer their $.02 (US) worth.

OH! One more question. I shoot with a canon 10D. I have 6.9mpixels.

What is the biggest I can safely print? I have 10x10 on my web site? Think I can go bigger and not get grainy?

Art Scott · April 23, 2007

kristen wrote:

OH! One more question. I shoot with a canon 10D. I have 6.9mpixels.

What is the biggest I can safely print? I have 10x10 on my web site? Think I can go bigger and not get grainy?

Depending on the printers rip software that file can gooo HUUUUGE......say probalby 20 x 30 inches at least.....also depends on you ISO setting...remember lower iso less grain......bu even in a wedding grain can be beautiful

I would copyright all the images....not as an actual copyright but more of as a signature...think of it as photoshop GOLD STAMPING.....put it up just high enuff so that it can't be easily removed....

As someone else said think in terms of what they should have purchased in the way of enlargements from you and add that to your price of shooting the wedding......You may want to find a source for "unbranded" cd's....unbranded means no manufacturer name on the cd....all cd's (and dvd's ) purchased from a reatil store will either have the chain stores name (best buy, comp usa) or the manufacturer's name (TDK, Fujisu, memorex, sony..etc etc) printed on the disk around the spindle hole..... an unbranded disk looks extremely professional and keeps from having clients whining that the cd only cost you 25 cents...why are you charging me $500 for it.....I am sure there are many brands out there but off the top of my head I have used Mitsui...made by MAM-A in colorado......I believe they also make the delkin gold, as they were the first to make a real gold cd and their process is still propriatary.......I use LIghtscribe disks (several brands available) and that in itself has kept people from whinning about disk cost...but again some clients will whine no matter what.....

Let us know how your client takes your decision....

kristen · April 23, 2007

Art Scott wrote:

Depending on the printers rip software that file can gooo HUUUUGE......say probalby 20 x 30 inches at least.....also depends on you ISO setting...remember lower iso less grain......bu even in a wedding grain can be beautiful

I would copyright all the images....not as an actual copyright but more of as a signature...think of it as photoshop GOLD STAMPING.....put it up just high enuff so that it can't be easily removed....

As someone else said think in terms of what they should have purchased in the way of enlargements from you and add that to your price of shooting the wedding......You may want to find a source for "unbranded" cd's....unbranded means no manufacturer name on the cd....all cd's (and dvd's ) purchased from a reatil store will either have the chain stores name (best buy, comp usa) or the manufacturer's name (TDK, Fujisu, memorex, sony..etc etc) printed on the disk around the spindle hole..... an unbranded disk looks extremely professional and keeps from having clients whining that the cd only cost you 25 cents...why are you charging me $500 for it.....I am sure there are many brands out there but off the top of my head I have used Mitsui...made by MAM-A in colorado......I believe they also make the delkin gold, as they were the first to make a real gold cd and their process is still propriatary.......I use LIghtscribe disks (several brands available) and that in itself has kept people from whinning about disk cost...but again some clients will whine no matter what.....

Let us know how your client takes your decision....

WOW! Those disc are so expensive. Is that normal for an unbranded disc?
This is where I'm at http://www.datamediastore.com/brands-mam.html NUTS! I see what your saying, but man that's high.

I thought that I wasn't going to be able to print that large because it will get too grainy. You really think I would be safe going really big with 6.9 mp?

urbanaries · April 23, 2007

kristen wrote:

WOW! Those disc are so expensive. Is that normal for an unbranded disc?
This is where I'm at http://www.datamediastore.com/brands-mam.html NUTS! I see what your saying, but man that's high.

I thought that I wasn't going to be able to print that large because it will get too grainy. You really think I would be safe going really big with 6.9 mp?

I am no expert but I have 8.2 MP and I have had clients print a 20x30 of an image taken at 800 ISO. It looked just fine. The thing to remember about prints larger than 11x14 is that they're usually viewed from a distance, and grain diminishes from a distance. OTOH, in my limited experience, sharpness actually decreases the larger you go. So an image that looked fairly sharp at 4x6 when enlarged, looked much softer.

Please someone correct me if my sweeping generalizations are off.

kristen · April 24, 2007

Art Scott wrote:

Depending on the printers rip software that file can gooo HUUUUGE......say probalby 20 x 30 inches at least.....also depends on you ISO setting...remember lower iso less grain......bu even in a wedding grain can be beautiful

I would copyright all the images....not as an actual copyright but more of as a signature...think of it as photoshop GOLD STAMPING.....put it up just high enuff so that it can't be easily removed....

As someone else said think in terms of what they should have purchased in the way of enlargements from you and add that to your price of shooting the wedding......You may want to find a source for "unbranded" cd's....unbranded means no manufacturer name on the cd....all cd's (and dvd's ) purchased from a reatil store will either have the chain stores name (best buy, comp usa) or the manufacturer's name (TDK, Fujisu, memorex, sony..etc etc) printed on the disk around the spindle hole..... an unbranded disk looks extremely professional and keeps from having clients whining that the cd only cost you 25 cents...why are you charging me $500 for it.....I am sure there are many brands out there but off the top of my head I have used Mitsui...made by MAM-A in colorado......I believe they also make the delkin gold, as they were the first to make a real gold cd and their process is still propriatary.......I use LIghtscribe disks (several brands available) and that in itself has kept people from whinning about disk cost...but again some clients will whine no matter what.....

Let us know how your client takes your decision....

How large does the disk need to be? If I'm putting 500 pictures on a disk, what's a good size?

THANKS A TON ART!

dogwood · April 24, 2007

Art Scott wrote:

Depending on the printers rip software that file can gooo HUUUUGE......say probalby 20 x 30 inches at least.....

I have a framed landscape from my ol' 10D-- it's a 13x19 print and looks just fine.

Another cool option on CD's/DVD's is HP's Lightscribe burners. They're fairly cheap (think I got mine for $30) though the lightscribe CD/DVD's do cost more than regular discs. But... you essentially can burn text and images right into the surface of the CD/DVD using Lightscribe. It looks really professional, you can do any layout you want, any text, photos, etc. The downside is it takes about twenty minutes to burn an image/text into the disc surface. But it looks mighty cool (and professional) when it's done.

kristen · April 24, 2007

dogwood wrote:

I have a framed landscape from my ol' 10D-- it's a 13x19 print and looks just fine.

Another cool option on CD's/DVD's is HP's Lightscribe burners. They're fairly cheap (think I got mine for $30) though the lightscribe CD/DVD's do cost more than regular discs. But... you essentially can burn text and images right into the surface of the CD/DVD using Lightscribe. It looks really professional, you can do any layout you want, any text, photos, etc. The downside is it takes about twenty minutes to burn an image/text into the disc surface. But it looks mighty cool (and professional) when it's done.

That's neat. Where would I find out more about the disc?

So far people don't want to pay what I want for the disc. They are just sticking with buying the pictures.

I'm going bigger then!!! Everyone tells me that I will be just fine printing larger. What do you shoot with now? I am getting a new camera hopefully in the next few months and I will use to 10D as the back up.

kristen · April 27, 2007

Some more questions
My client has wrote back saying that they really just want all the photos on disc. I told her $1,000.00 for 4 hours of shooting and the pictures on disc. Is this too high or too low? I am just starting so I normally charge $200.00 for 3 hours of shooting and then $75.00 every hour after that. My lowest priced package is $300.00 I figure if they get only 3 hours of service (which is next to never) and the smallest package then that's $500.00 I am losing out on reprints, and family by giving them the disc and they normally spend around 700.00-1,200.00 total. Thoughts? Questions?

You guys have helped me out a ton here.

ALSO... I have my first wedding shoot on the web site. check out www.takethepicturenow.com Give me some input.

dragon300zx · April 29, 2007

Hi Kristen,

Lots of good advice in here that it looks like you have really listened to which is great. Your reasoning for the price you quoted is very sound and reasonable. Clients don't always agree but you have to make a profit or there's no point for you to do it.

kristen · April 29, 2007

dragon300zx wrote:

Hi Kristen,

Lots of good advice in here that it looks like you have really listened to which is great. Your reasoning for the price you quoted is very sound and reasonable. Clients don't always agree but you have to make a profit or there's no point for you to do it.

Thank you so much. These forums save me right now!

Art Scott · April 30, 2007

I know there is a lot of controversy on this subject but I have been a huge fan of Genuine Fractals since version 3......Now my local PRO PRINTER told me that for 6 or 8 mp there was no need to uprez my files to reach 30 x 40 inches....I figured he knew waht he was taking about as there are tons and tons of his printing hanging all around Wichita of all sort of airplanes....HUUUGE PICS murals to be exact......but one of my early clients wanted 8 x 10 quality in a 30 x 40 and did not understand the concept of viewing distance....I actuall advised this client to vist an art gallery or museum to get the understanding of what I meant....well I purchased GF3.0 and did the stair stepping method to get to the final size (that was a lot of work) and the printer was amazed at what turned out......so when GF 4.1 came out I used the trial version and was shocked at the fact that now I can uprez in ONE step, either by percentages or actual size ( I always uprez by actual size)....the trtial version allows you to uprez and save 20 fully usable files....the trial version is actually the fully blown full commerical version...also I get the Print Pro version just in case I have to make my files into cmyk and not rgb for a client....the cost difference was so minimal it didn't matter.

so now for all my really large stuff (anything above11 x 14) I do a uprez in PS from the native 72 dpi to 300 (approx 8 x 10 inches)...makeing to have the constrain box ticked, that way no interpolation takes place....now I do all of my PS'ing except sharpening...go to GF uprez that baby and sharpen in USM in PS and save as my largest (#12) jpg.....I have not had any type of artifacting happen and I rarely shoot above iso 100...unless it an event that is lit by stage lighting only and no flash is allowed then it an iso of whatever it takes...:D

ivar · April 30, 2007

Art Scott wrote:

I know there is a lot of controversy on this subject but I have been a huge fan of Genuine Fractals since version 3......Now my local PRO PRINTER told me that for 6 or 8 mp there was no need to uprez my files to reach 30 x 40 inches....I figured he knew waht he was taking about as there are tons and tons of his printing hanging all around Wichita of all sort of airplanes....HUUUGE PICS murals to be exact......but one of my early clients wanted 8 x 10 quality in a 30 x 40 and did not understand the concept of viewing distance....I actuall advised this client to vist an art gallery or museum to get the understanding of what I meant....well I purchased GF3.0 and did the stair stepping method to get to the final size (that was a lot of work) and the printer was amazed at what turned out......so when GF 4.1 came out I used the trial version and was shocked at the fact that now I can uprez in ONE step, either by percentages or actual size ( I always uprez by actual size)....the trtial version allows you to uprez and save 20 fully usable files....the trial version is actually the fully blown full commerical version...also I get the Print Pro version just in case I have to make my files into cmyk and not rgb for a client....the cost difference was so minimal it didn't matter.

so now for all my really large stuff (anything above11 x 14) I do a uprez in PS from the native 72 dpi to 300 (approx 8 x 10 inches)...makeing to have the constrain box ticked, that way no interpolation takes place....now I do all of my PS'ing except sharpening...go to GF uprez that baby and sharpen in USM in PS and save as my largest (#12) jpg.....I have not had any type of artifacting happen and I rarely shoot above iso 100...unless it an event that is lit by stage lighting only and no flash is allowed then it an iso of whatever it takes...:D

I'm missing the link to the OP's question here I think....

dragon300zx · April 30, 2007

ivar wrote:

I'm missing the link to the OP's question here I think....

Ivar I missed it at first too. Half way down on the first page printable sizes for the 10D where brought up.

Which BTW I have 13X19's off my 10D that I would be comfortable with taking bigger so it can be done. As already said by others.

Art Scott · May 4, 2007

ivar wrote:

I'm missing the link to the OP's question here I think....

I was referring to to the OP's asking how large a print could be made from her camera.....guess I should have did the reply with a quote thingy...or at least had some sort of referral to her question...sorry to have confused those that I did:D BTW IF you couldn't tell I am a very big fan of GF Print Pro 4.1...:D

bham · May 6, 2007

I have some awesome 24" x 36" prints from images I took on my 10D. I didn't upsize at all.

kristen · May 17, 2007

Art Scott wrote:

I was referring to to the OP's asking how large a print could be made from her camera.....guess I should have did the reply with a quote thingy...or at least had some sort of referral to her question...sorry to have confused those that I did:D BTW IF you couldn't tell I am a very big fan of GF Print Pro 4.1...:D

I AM SO GREEN!

I found a web site... http://www.american-digital.com/prodsite/category.asp?c=150&name=DVDMedia

They have all sorts of unbranded stuff here, but I'm still at a loss as to how big it needs to be and what's the difference between cd/dvd....

I know I aleady wrote you this question Art... This is for everyone else here so that I can get some input!

THANKS GUYS!

I Simonius · May 17, 2007

kristen wrote:

I have a client that is interested in just buying the CD of photos after I shoot them? What is the normal going rate that Photographers charge for this, and do you put your water mark on the photos?

THANKS!

Ask them what they want them for (prints/web etc), guess how badly they want them and charge accordingly ;-)

I Simonius · May 17, 2007

kristen wrote:

My client has wrote back saying that they really just want all the photos on disc. I told her $1,000.00 for 4 hours of shooting and the pictures on disc. Is this too high or too low? I am just starting so I normally charge $200.00 for 3 hours of shooting and then $75.00 every hour after that. My lowest priced package is $300.00 I figure if they get only 3 hours of service (which is next to never) and the smallest package then that's $500.00 I am losing out on reprints, and family by giving them the disc and they normally spend around 700.00-1,200.00 total. Thoughts? Questions?

You guys have helped me out a ton here.

ALSO... I have my first wedding shoot on the web site. check out www.takethepicturenow.com Give me some input.

sounds about right to me

Giving Away Copyright?

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