Just finished a 'freelance' job

Ann McRae · May 13, 2007

Several months ago, when I was looking for work, I answered an ad from an event photog in B.C., looking for shooters. He kept my info and contacted me about a month ago. I agreed to shoot a road race for him today. Really interesting process - paid me and another photog hourly, we provided cards which we filled and couriered back to him. I am curious as to how they will turn out. The job was to get one shot per participant at the finish line. 10K and 5 k run & walk. 1700 registered participants! I can't confirm the results, but think they were pretty good, from the bit of chimping I did.
Weather was great, so that made things easy and enjoyable.
Now I need to sort out if I will do it again.

ann

wmstumme · May 13, 2007

That's pretty cool!! Was the "ad guy" just putting together a contingency list when he first contacted you? What kind of portfolio did you show him?
What other kinds of things do you think he'll have you doing?

bsvirginian · May 13, 2007

When you are sucessful it usually comes down to "time and money". Was the effort worth the time that you put in for the money you got paid. There was an event that I only saw from the edge. A strike at a shipyard and the yard hired a lot of photographers to document the event at really high hourly rates. I have a close friend that made more money than he had ever made for a 3 month period. For one he didn't calculate the tax problems and for 2 he considered himself worth that same dollar rate for many subsequent job offers. He wasn't realistic and never again made the rate that he thought he was worth. Lesson is "don't look a gift horse in the mouth".
Just some thoughts, bsvirginian.

Ann McRae · May 13, 2007

So, this company seems to cover major running events across western Canada - were official photogs for The World Masters Games, etc. There are several annual runs in Edmonton, including a major triathalon every year.

This paid more per hour than my day job does, and about what I see as my hourly rate for T & I once I account for overhead/editing/ and whatever else there is to it.

I just am not sure about the turning over of images - good thing is that there is no processing based on spec ( which of course is a bad business), good thing is it is a guarenteed amount, bad thing is I have no control over the resultant images, and no potential future earnings from them. If I got that 'one in a million' shot, it is gone. Well, revenue from it belongs to someone else anyway.

Still thinking this through.

ann

bsvirginian · May 14, 2007

I guess the only difference in this job possibility and what I pay my assistants is that they get to have at least promotional use of the images they shoot. But the images do belong to me. Also I pay them much more than their day jobs but they are loyal to me.
To me the only decision would be if you can cope with the idea that a "once in a life time" image that you shoot would not be your property and whether or not the pay would cover your expenses.
bsvirginian

Art Scott · May 14, 2007

What happens if you copy the work done before couriering back to those you are working for?

Actually this is no different than contracting a wedding from a studio or bridal shop...but normally I could get prints (back in film days) fo shots I wanted for my portfolio....

You should ask about shots to add to your portfolio....a lot of contract photogs do not give a flip about their shots and never want to be bothered by them again......I think it depends on whether one is doing it strickly for the money or for the love of the craft and also money.......

Ann McRae · May 14, 2007

Hey. Thought I should clarify that I am not dissing the contractor. I think he has a great business model.

What I am working through is whether I care about keeping possession of my photos. I actually had not thought about asking if any could be used in my portfolio. That is a brilliant idea.

I am also thinking about his business model, and wondering if there is market space for this in the soccer world.

Thanks for the ideas and feedback

ann

jonh68 · May 15, 2007

I freelance for the local paper and I understand the situation. Once I turn over a photo, it's not mine. It is a bit different in they pay me by the picture, not my time however. What I have started to do is take multiple pictures of a situation,moment and make sure I either keep the best one or make sure they are similar but different enough that I can prove it's not the same picture, which the editor told me is fine.

For instance: I photographed a bottle-nosed dolphin jumping out of the water several times. It took place in a local river. I kept what I thought was the best picture and sent in the second best. I took multiple pictures of a sunrise over an old barn and each picture is a little different as the sun is higher and the clouds are different.

If there is one great shot, I let them use it but I don't get paid for it and I keep the rights. It may be different as they hire you by the hour, but maybe you can talk to them about keeping a few you really like or work out something in which you can use similar pictures of the same thing. I have also thought about that one in a million shot, but 99.9999999% of the time, it isn't.:cry

aporia · May 17, 2007

Ann, thanks for posting about your experience with this contract shoot. This is such a tough question to think about while starting your own photography business -- whether to shoot for the appealing one time $$ and experience or to hold out and negotiate the sale of your photos with copyright and your own future usage in tact.

Editorial Photographers has an ongoing discussion about the pitfalls of work-for-hire contracts and the loss of copyright and potential future revenue. There are some good publically available articles available on the website there.

Also, Common Cents addresses this issue regularly and this month offers some advice for freelancers shooting for what they call, "good guys" with bad contracts. Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of that going around.

anwmn1 · May 17, 2007

Ann-

I have done some freelance for a wedding company. Our arrangement is I show up to assist and shoot my camera with their cards at an hourly rate. They bring me batteries for my flash(es) and I give them the cards after the shoot. They burn all my original images to a cd and mail it out to me which I can use for my portfolio but cannot sale.

As far as a business I have seen sports photography companies (primarily soccer tournaments) doing the model you are talking about- same with using it for real estate. I have thought of it myself but do not have time to take my photography to that tyoe of business level.

It might pay to talk with the owner and see what you can work out. Never hurts to ask!

Ann McRae wrote:

Hey. Thought I should clarify that I am not dissing the contractor. I think he has a great business model.

What I am working through is whether I care about keeping possession of my photos. I actually had not thought about asking if any could be used in my portfolio. That is a brilliant idea.

I am also thinking about his business model, and wondering if there is market space for this in the soccer world.

Thanks for the ideas and feedback

ann

largelylivin · May 17, 2007

Whoa! Do you all consider this to be legal and ethical?

jonh68 wrote:

I freelance for the local paper and I understand the situation. Once I turn over a photo, it's not mine. It is a bit different in they pay me by the picture, not my time however. What I have started to do is take multiple pictures of a situation,moment and make sure I either keep the best one or make sure they are similar but different enough that I can prove it's not the same picture, which the editor told me is fine.

For instance: I photographed a bottle-nosed dolphin jumping out of the water several times. It took place in a local river. I kept what I thought was the best picture and sent in the second best. I took multiple pictures of a sunrise over an old barn and each picture is a little different as the sun is higher and the clouds are different.

If there is one great shot, I let them use it but I don't get paid for it and I keep the rights. It may be different as they hire you by the hour, but maybe you can talk to them about keeping a few you really like or work out something in which you can use similar pictures of the same thing. I have also thought about that one in a million shot, but 99.9999999% of the time, it isn't.:cry

First, I am new to this. Photography is, I hope, my second career. You know, doing what you always really wanted to do before money got in the way? But, I have a lot of experience with Intellectual Property, which isn't quite the same thing.

My current position is that if someone hires you to go ouy and take photos of dolphins, and they pay you by your time and not the piece, then they own every picture that you take that day of dolphins! They don't even owe you a special thanks or credit if they choose to publish it, It and all of its publishing rights are theirs, that's why they paid for your time and not your piece. I feel very strongly that this is how the courts would feel although I have no particular knowledge of the legal issue.

Further, if the employeer paid your travel axpense and, let's assume, travel time, then they may own the rights to every shot you take that day.

This all assumes that you and the employer didn't enter into an employment agreement to the contrary. For instance, your employment agreement may be a form contract where you fill in the blanks with DOLPHINS, giving them full-rights in return for hourly pay, and in the words exclude all other subject matter. That's what I am planning to do for my contract work, but I haven't actually written the contract verbage yet.

Am I all wet?

jonh68 · May 17, 2007

You are all wet if you are commenting on my situation.:D

I get paid by the picture, not time. I happened to be on break on my full time job when the dolphin started to entertain. They did not ask for a dolphin pic, I submitted it and they used it. I take "life" pictures of events that take place in my county and I was doing that for fun. I started to submit pics to the paper and they started to print them. After a couple of months, I got a CALL from the editor telling me they would like to start PAYING me for the stuff I was doing for free. I submit them with a caption or little story and they can use them or not. I don't get paid ahead of time. Here's an example from today and yesterday. I saw this hawk and took pictures of it on my time. The paper liked them so they printed them. I got the picture of a snake in my yard and they printed that. They didn't ask for a snake picture. If they did ask for a snake picture, I would still keep the rights to all the pics not submitted.

http://www.al.com/press-register/pageone/wednesday1z.pdf
http://www.al.com/press-register/pageone/thursday1z.pdf

For sports, I am asked to cover them, but I have no guarantee the pic will be used and I am not paid for my time there. I get paid if the pic is used. Because of that, I determine from a business point of view of it's worth my time and worth taking off my F/T job if I have to. I also get to keep the pictures I take that I don't submit and I can sell them. The sportswriter I work with encourages me to and even refers parents to me when they see a pic in the paper I took. I can't sell that particular picture, but I may have similar ones.

I am asked from time to time to cover stuff like charity events or news events, but I know i will get paid. The contract I signed stated that once a picture is submitted, it becomes the property of the paper unless I state otherwise in which case they can use it for free, but I retain rights to it. The editor knows about my website and I have even told her she can look through it for pictures that may help with a story. If I want to get paid for it, I take that pic down.

At the end of each pay period, I invoice for the pictures in the paper and get a check. If I had to sign an agreement for each assignement, the paper and I would go nuts. It's simple. I send in the pics. If they are used, I bill them. All other pics are mine even if I were asked to cover something by the paper. That's why I like freelancing. There are no guarantees, but I can use the extra pics however i want. They are happy they get a picture, and I am happy i get paid for doing something I would do for free.:D

largelylivin · May 18, 2007

jonh68 wrote:

You are all wet if you are commenting on my situation.:D

I get paid by the picture, not time. I happened to be on break on my full time job when the dolphin started to entertain. They did not ask for a dolphin pic, I submitted it and they used it. I take "life" pictures of events that take place in my county and I was doing that for fun. I started to submit pics to the paper and they started to print them. After a couple of months, I got a CALL from the editor telling me they would like to start PAYING me for the stuff I was doing for free. I submit them with a caption or little story and they can use them or not. I don't get paid ahead of time. Here's an example from today and yesterday. I saw this hawk and took pictures of it on my time. The paper liked them so they printed them. I got the picture of a snake in my yard and they printed that. They didn't ask for a snake picture. If they did ask for a snake picture, I would still keep the rights to all the pics not submitted.

http://www.al.com/press-register/pageone/wednesday1z.pdf
http://www.al.com/press-register/pageone/thursday1z.pdf

For sports, I am asked to cover them, but I have no guarantee the pic will be used and I am not paid for my time there. I get paid if the pic is used. Because of that, I determine from a business point of view of it's worth my time and worth taking off my F/T job if I have to. I also get to keep the pictures I take that I don't submit and I can sell them. The sportswriter I work with encourages me to and even refers parents to me when they see a pic in the paper I took. I can't sell that particular picture, but I may have similar ones.

I am asked from time to time to cover stuff like charity events or news events, but I know i will get paid. The contract I signed stated that once a picture is submitted, it becomes the property of the paper unless I state otherwise in which case they can use it for free, but I retain rights to it. The editor knows about my website and I have even told her she can look through it for pictures that may help with a story. If I want to get paid for it, I take that pic down.

At the end of each pay period, I invoice for the pictures in the paper and get a check. If I had to sign an agreement for each assignement, the paper and I would go nuts. It's simple. I send in the pics. If they are used, I bill them. All other pics are mine even if I were asked to cover something by the paper. That's why I like freelancing. There are no guarantees, but I can use the extra pics however i want. They are happy they get a picture, and I am happy i get paid for doing something I would do for free.:D

My current position is that if someone hires you to go ouy and take photos of dolphins, and they pay you by your time and not the piece, then they own every picture that you take that day of dolphins! They don't even owe you a special thanks or credit if they choose to publish it, It and all of its publishing rights are theirs, that's why they paid for your time and not your piece. I feel very strongly that this is how the courts would feel although I have no particular knowledge of the legal issue

.

Obviously, I am not talking about you. You said "I get paid by the picture and not by my time". Sorry if using the dolphins as an example confused you.

largelylivin · May 18, 2007

Let's here it! Am I right or wrong when you are contracted for TIME?
How about it? I really need to know. Am I right that if you are contracted and paid by time or event then the photos and their rights belong to your employer unless your contract says otherwise and you both agree to it?

This is a very fundamental question. Everyone should be jumping all over this!

anwmn1 · May 18, 2007

largelylivin wrote:

How about it? I really need to know. Am I right that if you are contracted and paid by time or event then the photos and their rights belong to your employer unless your contract says otherwise and you both agree to it?

This is a very fundamental question. Everyone should be jumping all over this!

I would say yes you are right. That is why it is important to discuss the arrangement and clarify what you can or cannot do with the photos you take while working for them.

It is up to you to determine your price and what you are willing to give up as far as your photographic rights. If you want more- ask for it!

evoryware · May 18, 2007

I bought these books for that reason:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781581152067&itm=1

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&EAN=9781581152074&itm=5

Just finished a 'freelance' job

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