Can anyone print the entire image?

jfriend · September 14, 2007

After another messed up set of prints at Costco, I've given up on them forever. They absolutely will not print my whole image even when it's precropped to exactly the right aspect ratio. Even when I order a print with a white border on it, they still zoom in on the print and throw away part of the image. When I asked the tech at the store about this, he just said that's the way the machine works and there's nothing he can do about it.

So, I'm in search of a printer that can print my whole image. I realize that it's difficult to do a borderless print without a little bleed area that gets thrown away, but a printer should be able to do a print with a white border that doesn't throw any of my image away. I need this when the image is tight and/or when I want an exact size print to fit in a frame.

Does anyone know who can print the entire image - other than printing myself at home?

Last I checked, Smugmug (EZPrints) didn't offer this. Costco doesn't offer it. It seems like such a basic thing for a printer to offer.

Andy · September 14, 2007

jfriend wrote:

Last I checked, Smugmug (EZPrints) didn't offer this.

How about an 8x10 on an 11x14 canvas for example, and then cut it yourself?

I'm also curious, can I see an example of such a file that you're having trouble printing right, and also what size are you looking for?

jfriend · September 14, 2007

A few samples

Andy wrote:

How about an 8x10 on an 11x14 canvas for example, and then cut it yourself?

I'm also curious, can I see an example of such a file that you're having trouble printing right, and also what size are you looking for?

I've tried adding white border to the image so that it's the white border that get's cut off, not the image. If I add enough border, I can guarentee that I get the whole image, but the amount of bleed and the amount of zoom that the printer does to implement the bleed doesn't appear to be precise or documented exactly (it might even vary depending upon which piece of equipment they print with) so if I'm looking for a particular output size for the whole image, I'm left to guess and test to try to get the result I want. With the turn-around time on Smugmug prints, I never have that much time. I've tried that at Costco (two hour turn-around time) and found it inconsistent from one run to the next.

I also end up paying for a much larger size than I really want. And, since I'm never sure exactly how the printer is going to muck with it, I can't afford the time of a Smugmug order.

Here are some images (3:2 aspect ratio) that all lost something important (usually a hand) on the edge when printed at 5x7 with a white border (at Costco) which should only crop 1/4" on the top and bottom, nothing on the sides. Yes, I know I should leave more room at shoot time, but it's sports and sometimes the exact image in the sequence you want just doesn't have perfect framing or I'm zoomed out as far as possible and this is the best I can do.

In this particular case, I was looking for 5x7 just because I was looking for something inexpensive for 26 sample prints (two per player on the team). Usually, I'm running into this problem when trying to make a print for a frame (8x10 or 11x14). With frames, I've got the additional crop issue of the inset on the frame which is predicatable (it can be measured on any given frame), but also has to be planned for.

It sure seems like it would be an interesting business opportunity for a printer to have two additional offers:

1) Full image inside a 1/4" white border with the ability to pick the size of the full image exactly. In other words, I'd like an 8x10 full image with a 1/4" white border around it (which would make it 8.5x10.5 overall). I don't even want/need the white border, but I understand why a borderless print can't both give you the whole image and print all the way to the edge without any image clipping.

2) Print specifically designed for an 8x10 or 11x14 frame that puts a little white border around the print, then gives you your whole print and let's you show as much as possible of the print with the minimal bleed area required to keep from seeing white in the frame.

As of this moment, I know of no way to accomplish the first item other than printing myself. It's trivial in Photoshop. I just specify the output size as 8x10 and then put in 8.5x11 paper.

And, the second item requires a bunch of trial prints to try to figure out exactly what zooming and bleed area the printer is using. Put a particular sized border on, order a print, measure the resulting full size. Change the border width slightly, print again, measure, etc...

Here are some images that I just had this problem with. I lost part of the hand on the viewer's left on the first one and part of the hand on the viewer's right on the other two.

Andy · September 14, 2007

All three of those will suffer from bleed trim loss if printed at 3:2 (as you already know)... BUT IMO there's no reason at all why they shouldn't print perfectly if on a bigger canvas. Let me try something....

jfriend · September 14, 2007

Andy wrote:

All three of those will suffer from bleed trim loss if printed at 3:2 (as you already know)... BUT IMO there's no reason at all why they shouldn't print perfectly if on a bigger canvas. Let me try something....

To print on a larger canvas in Smugmug, do you have to manually add a white border before uploading and printing? Or is there some other way?

Andy · September 14, 2007

So, I'm talking something like this... I'd like you to print this image, make it part of that other test we'll be doing next week. It's your full file, only on an 11x14 canvas.

(this is on your site, category Other, private gallery - you'll see it..)

Andy · September 14, 2007

jfriend wrote:

To print on a larger canvas in Smugmug, do you have to manually add a white border before uploading and printing? Or is there some other way?

2 ways - in photoshop as I just did it, or, order your 4x6 as a 5x7 and choose "no crop" in the shopping cart - you'll see:

jfriend · September 14, 2007

Andy wrote:

So, I'm talking something like this... I'd like you to print this image, make it part of that other test we'll be doing next week. It's your full file, only on an 11x14 canvas.

(this is on your site, category Other, private gallery - you'll see it..)

OK, I'll try it as part of that print run. I see the private gallery you put it in. Did you factor in the specific bleed area for EZPrints to try to get a finished output of an 8x10 full image?

Andy · September 15, 2007

jfriend wrote:

OK, I'll try it as part of that print run. I see the private gallery you put it in. Did you factor in the specific bleed area for EZPrints to try to get a finished output of an 8x10 full image?

No, I put your 3:2 file on an 11x14 300dpi canvas. So this would be an 8x12 finished print when you trim it at home.

If you wanted 4x6s, make a 5x7 white canvas and put your image inside it

jfriend · September 15, 2007

Andy wrote:

2 ways - in photoshop as I just did it, or, order your 4x6 as a 5x7 and choose "no crop" in the shopping cart - you'll see:

I hadn't considered the no-crop option before. I'll have to think about that. That would leave me with a non-standard size after I trimmed off the extra white. Could work for some uses, but not for framing.

jfriend · September 15, 2007

Andy wrote:

No, I put your 3:2 file on an 11x14 300dpi canvas. So this would be an 8x12 finished print when you trim it at home.

If you wanted 4x6s, make a 5x7 white canvas and put your image inside it

But won't the bleed area that they plan for in a borderless print cause them to scale it up a little larger than 11x14 causing the resulting image inside to end up larger than 8x12? Then, if I trimmed it to 8x12 I'd lose something in both dimensions and not get the full width?

cabbey · September 15, 2007

get to know a local printer
I've managed in the past to get pretty close to what you're asking for by going to a local printer, and I don't mean any of the bulk places like sam's/wallmart or drugstores. I went to a local photography shop, the all in one kind that has their own lab and a couple of studio spaces for doing sittings. Specifically it was http://proex.com/, which won't help you out there in SF, but you can get an idea for the kind of place I mean. Working with their techs I was able to get them to document the minimum enlargement they could set their printers to, and got the right "special instructions" to put on my order when I submitted it. This allowed me to print images that had exact scale, so a specific feature in the image came out at a specific size. If I recall correctly, I've not done this in years, it was something like 0.0015% that they were scaling the image by on 5" wide prints (4x5 or 5x7) and 0.0010% on 8" wide prints (8x10 or 8x12).

I have once reverse engineered this same information out of an online printer by simply embedding a ruler into an image sending them the print and measuring the resulting scale. A bit of math then said they were doing a XX% scale up on my images. Then it just becomes a headache to do the math every time to say "I need X pixels for bleed". (this is one thing I wish photoshop and such were better at... let me tell them "make the crop selection 8x10 proportions with x% bleed added on.")

jfriend · September 15, 2007

cabbey wrote:

I've managed in the past to get pretty close to what you're asking for by going to a local printer, and I don't mean any of the bulk places like sam's/wallmart or drugstores.

Yeah, I guess I need to find a local, pro-type printer that's willing to work with me. Anyone out there know one in the South Peninsula or South Bay area of the San Francisco Bay Area (Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Mtn View, Los Altos, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, North San Jose)?

cabbey · September 15, 2007

Or do the reverse engineering trick with EZprints... after all they claim to strive for consistency over all else, even "quality".

Andy · September 15, 2007

jfriend wrote:

But won't the bleed area that they plan for in a borderless print cause them to scale it up a little larger than 11x14 causing the resulting image inside to end up larger than 8x12? Then, if I trimmed it to 8x12 I'd lose something in both dimensions and not get the full width?

No. The image is set for 8x12 - the canvas is 11x14. Let's print it and you'll see

Can anyone print the entire image?

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