Support

damonff · February 24, 2005

I'd like to thank all of the people who support my position on the challenges. Your myriad private messages yesterday let me know that I'm not the only one who is frustrated with the process. Also, some of you mentioned that the attitude of the moderators is keeping you away from participating. I think that's sad and a testament to a broken system. It's unfortunate. I also will be staying away from the challenges until either the moderator is changed or the judging system is overhauled. To those who want to learn from their experiences with photography, I suggest going to FM to participate. There is no learning going on here, only cheerleading. Can we have a dialogue about this or will this thread also be "moved" or "terminated" due to politics. We'll see...

gubbs · February 24, 2005

Damon,

Whilst the current system may not be perfect, (which system is?) it is imo the best practical solution available at present.

A lot of effort goes into the challenges from entrants and judges! To make accusations of "bias and unfairness" is insulting and unfounded to me as an entrant, and as a previous judge.

Maybe, you should take your entries elsewhere

damonff · February 24, 2005

Hey Gubbs

I plan to take my entries elsewhere. That was the point of the post. If I insulted you, I'm sorry, but the road to a better place/forum is not paved with lies but with truth. The truth is that the challenges are biased and unfair and malignantly subjective. When you enter into these challenges, you're essentially asking Andy for his approval, that's all it is; it's not a contest. If it were, there'd be no resistance to a full democratic vote.

digital faerie · February 24, 2005

damonff wrote:

I'd like to thank all of the people who support my position on the challenges. Your myriad private messages yesterday let me know that I'm not the only one who is frustrated with the process. Also, some of you mentioned that the attitude of the moderators is keeping you away from participating. I think that's sad and a testament to a broken system. It's unfortunate. I also will be staying away from the challenges until either the moderator is changed or the judging system is overhauled. To those who want to learn from their experiences with photography, I suggest going to FM to participate. There is no learning going on here, only cheerleading. Can we have a dialogue about this or will this thread also be "moved" or "terminated" due to politics. We'll see...

Is it possible to create a different judging process? I, too, was struck by Andy's comment of "70%" and was even more shocked at the photos that did not make it, and some that did....I couldn't help but think, what am I missing here?

I think Andy tries really hard, and from what I can tell, he works even harder for sure. I can't imagine moderating any of these forums, I can barely keep up with trying to give feedback between work and school, but I do it because I feel it's important, as I'm sure Andy probably feels the same way. It's also fun, to a point hehe.

Why can't we all vote on entries once those that are "disqualified" have been removed? Is it possible to have a small thumbnail beside the voting box so that people can remember which photo is which and then the top 10 is chosen from that perhaps?

I dunno, just my .02

I really don't want to give up on the challenges because for me, it's not about winning or making it to the finals it's about pushing my own envelope and giving me a focus, so to speak, when I go out at 5 am and I'm searching for that perfect place and perfect light. The last 2 weeks of the previous challenge was very satisfying to me, I felt like I was getting something done, even if I only ended up with one shot that I felt was semi-worthy of being submitted into the challenge. I still learned something about myself and my camera and that is priceless.

But there's something to be said when comments are made about "abstracts have never done well" or "dogs never win" etc. I haven't been here long enough to know for sure, but it makes me wonder.

Shay Stephens · February 24, 2005

Hi damonff,

You don't like Andy being the gate keeper? Well, you won't like the results of a full democratic vote on every photo either. You just have an easy target by knowing who didn't vote for your photo getting into the top ten.

Developing a thicker skin is one of the benefits of participating in a challenge like this. Realizing that there are indeed tastes, biases, and even mood swings in what one person or an aggregate of people likes from day to day, is a good thing to learn as early in ones photographic life as possible.

I am sure that everyone recognizes there is a pop-culture with any group of people. There will be those things that, while not cutting-edge, most everyone can agree that they enjoy. The cutting-edge work that eventually seeps into pop-culture is not widely chosen by the masses. Yet it directly leads pop-culture by the nose. So if you are one who enjoys creating cutting edge work, you have to realize that your "fan base" is pretty much going to be limited to the few who also enjoy it. You have personal satisfaction of knowing you are the unsung pioneer of art.

So how will you influence pop-culture here if you leave trying to find the greener pasture of the fabled "cutting-edge-pop-culture" where hoards of fans will sing your praises???

p.s. I am loosely using 'you' as a shortcut to refer to anyone who complains about the outcome of a voting, jury, or judging process.

p.s.s And just to show I am not just blowing wind here. I too have never won a photo challenge. That does not bother me. My "target" is to cater more to the pop-culture side of things. I do have to sell my work after all, so I can't afford to be cutting edge

. So my target when entering a challenge is to get into the top ten. If I make that, I have a pretty good idea I am on the right track for my goals.

What would be the goal of the cutting-edge artist. I would think the goal would be to get people talking about your work, or having it make waves of some kind (the kind of waves that travel in the direction you want to go). Chart the challenge results over time. Do you see a gradual shift towards your style of work? If so, you are making a difference.

Points to ponder...

damonff wrote:

I'd like to thank all of the people who support my position on the challenges. Your myriad private messages yesterday let me know that I'm not the only one who is frustrated with the process. Also, some of you mentioned that the attitude of the moderators is keeping you away from participating. I think that's sad and a testament to a broken system. It's unfortunate. I also will be staying away from the challenges until either the moderator is changed or the judging system is overhauled. To those who want to learn from their experiences with photography, I suggest going to FM to participate. There is no learning going on here, only cheerleading. Can we have a dialogue about this or will this thread also be "moved" or "terminated" due to politics. We'll see...

wxwax · February 24, 2005

Excellent post, Shay.

damonff · February 24, 2005

thanks Shay, good points...I'll definitely keep posting at dgrin, I'm just giving up on the challenges because I think they're worthless in every way...dgrin is awesome though and I love the support I get from the members...

ginger_55 · February 24, 2005

I would just like to say, to get it out of my system, I disagree about FM being the "ideal" that it is made out to be, in my experience, by some people who
have been disappointed in the dGrin experience.

I have dipped my toe over there. I have learned no more than I have here, but I have learned that there is a "direction" or a "bias" there, too. If I had the desire I would feel less free to write a letter like this, to them, but that is not
FMs "fault" that I know of.

What I want to say is I think FM is highly over rated. Not that it is bad, just over rated.

I could complain about all the forums right now, as I see a direction in photography that I don't, personally, agree with. However, I am free to pursue whatever I want, whenever I want, in any of these forums. If one is going to go on, or is presently dealing with the public in the role of a photographer, I think all these forums are a good place to practice one's people skills. And that includes forsaking the indulgence to only do what one wants, unless one is in a position where the money is not an issue.

I learn here. Just the day before yesterday, I learned something from Angelo.
Then Snappy came in, and I learned more. I fought it, especially with Angelo, but I must say the approach that came out of his suggestion, or criticism, is pleasing. I do not know that it is the only approach, or that my original one was not pleasing. I am saying that there are different ways to approach things and for what I was trying to achieve in the long run, it helped to have the help I got. Reluctantly.

I suppose all that was an aside, what works for one person does not work for another.

I just get tired of hearing that FM is so much better. I will say categorically that it is not. And I will add that it is not even that much different, it just appears to be.

ginger

DavidTO · February 24, 2005

I always disagree to some extent with the selections. I also often disagree with the final winner, as judged by all who vote.

It's the old saw--opinions are like (*expletive deleted), everyone's got one.

I don't really see what can be done to perfect the judging, except to make me the judge--then the choices will always be spot on. Other than that, it'll always be different than my own personal choices.

Of course the judging is biased. It is biased by the judges personal tastes. No way around that.

One thing that I have thought about, is that when Fish came up with the suggestion for challenges in Yosemite, I cringed. I wanted to have fun, try my best and learn from others.

I find that's much the same with the challenges. I truly don't care if I win. It's the feedback and the discussion that takes place.

I would be all in favor of turning it into a showcase. "This Week's Showcase". You still get one entry, you still have the opportunity to submit your trials to group discussion, you still have to edit your work down to your one "best" -- in your eyes for the showcase. That encompasses the most valuable part of the challenge for me.

And I very much appreciate all that Andy does, and only fault him for not having my opinions, which are always right.

The worst thing, IMO, is to blame a guy who is always open to suggestions for change, bends over backwards to accommodate us all and has been our biggest benefit as far as helping our small community to grow.

Andy · February 24, 2005

damonff wrote:

..... Also, some of you mentioned that the attitude of the moderators is keeping you away from participating.

challenge particpation (actual entries) growth has risen each and every fortnight for the past 52 weeks (that's a whole year of growth). the growth in the past three months has gone from average of about 20 entries per fortnight to 49 entries in the most recent challenge. voting, has gone from being roughly equal to number of participants to now double the number of participants.

i can live with these results! damon, pure and simple - there's no way that 100% of the people are going to be pleased. and, i doubt that you'll ever be pleased.

the bottomline - i think you are whining and moaning about this, which, of course, you are entitled to do, that's entirely acceptable. that it's directed at me is fine, too. i have developed very thick skin over the years and it'll take a lot more than a few words from you to upset me.

but until you are going to show that you can contribute to this forum in a meaningful way, other than just sharing your photography, (why don't you talk about your style of shooting? many folks are interested in your techniques and many could learn from it).. until then, and until you are ready to step up to the plate and commit three to five hours a week on the challenges, and countless other time toward the dgrin community, and until you can demonstrate your willingness to help other members of the dgrin community, with their photography questions, with critiques, by encouragement, or just plain commisseration, your words come off as a childish rant.

to call me biased and unfair is a fine slap in the face, and not only to me but to all of the folks who put in loads of time to make dgrin a great place for photography. and well, to call the recent finalist choices "suspicious" why that's just an insult to ten people - congratulations, damon, you mass insulter you! you've managed to demean anyone who's particpated thus far, in fact... at least according to your criteria.

you seem much more intent on "winning" rather than on challenging yourself, and learning from and helping others.

so, there needs to be a house cleaning, eh? if you are intent on changing the dgrin challenges, by all means, devise an alternate format, and bring it up for discussion. this has been done numerous times over the past months, and is in fact how we got to the system we have in place today. thoughtful, civil disourse was sought, engaged in, and then folks were listened to. ranting and whining doesn't do it. i and most of the participants i'm sure, would be more than happy to participate in such a dialog. who knows, maybe you could change things for the better!

if you don't wish to do that, why then i invite you to participate in any of the other photography forums out there on the internet, who knows, you may even find one that is suitable for you, but i rather doubt it.

Andy · February 24, 2005

"challenging ourselves"

digital faerie wrote:

..snip...
I really don't want to give up on the challenges because for me, it's not about winning or making it to the finals it's about pushing my own envelope and giving me a focus, so to speak, when I go out at 5 am and I'm searching for that perfect place and perfect light. The last 2 weeks of the previous challenge was very satisfying to me, I felt like I was getting something done, even if I only ended up with one shot that I felt was semi-worthy of being submitted into the challenge. I still learned something about myself and my camera and that is priceless. ..snip...

excellent, digital faerie! this is exactly the sort of comment that keeps me interested in the challenges. i'm so happy for you! i wish that everyone would approach the challenges in this manner

keep up the great work, and excellent attitude.

Harryb · February 24, 2005

Damon & Andy
Hey Guys,

I hate it when folks I like squabble and you both are getting me down. If you don't start calming down I'm gonna have to smack you upsides your collective heads.:bash

You are both right and you are both wrong. Damon, of course the judging is biased and unfair. I haven't seen any photo contest that wasn't. Any jury, judges, voting bloc are going to be subjective and bring their biases to their voting. I was a co-judge on a challenge here, hated it and won't ever do it again, and it wasn't easy. I love your work but it is always pushing the envelope so it probably won't be as "popular" as the more traditional stuff. Just the fact that I like it should be a warning to you. So you don't win a challenge or make the finals, big deal. Get over it.

Andy you say you have a thick skin and then go on a lengthy and unneeded defense of yourself. What happened to your thick skin? Your reply
only fanned the flames. If you want to be a judge of these challenges their will always be some discontent from the non-winners. Heck I get ticked every time you get a Kodak POTD and I don't even get one. I mean big deal, someone gets ticked at you. You should be used to it by now. Get over it.

I'm done with both of you. I got a hot date with this egret. When I come back I don't want to see this stuff continuing. Seesh.

Charlie Brown · February 24, 2005

heres the thing, if you are entereing a contest (challenge) and you know that the judgesa re looking for a particular style, then would it not benefit you to try to attain that style or in the very least add a portion of that style to what you already do? if you did that you might have a better shot a tsome of the challenges, no on elikes to hear that people are not 100% bias free, im not andy isnt, neither is fish, you , wxwax, or anyone else here. we arent working in the judiciary here, its an online photography contest-pretty much for fun, so that we can all get better at our craft. i think youd be better served trying to win the contest by presenting what you think the judges are looking for as opposed to entering a photograph that you know isnt going to win because it isnt what the judges are looking for. if you do that and then feel that is a personal, instead of a content conflict then you have something to complain about, otherwise its pissin in the wind.

cb

damonff · February 24, 2005

thanks Harry...is that egret a brunette?

damonff · February 24, 2005

thanks for the comment cb...

digital faerie · February 24, 2005

andy wrote:

excellent, digital faerie! this is exactly the sort of comment that keeps me interested in the challenges. i'm so happy for you! i wish that everyone would approach the challenges in this manner

keep up the great work, and excellent attitude.

awww, shucks. :cry

I'll admit it, it was the challenges and seeing all the feedback and the chance to do something different that made me start posting on here in the first place. I think it's a wonderful idea and despite any biases that occur with judging (which is inescapable truly) I will enjoy myself to the fullest extent.

on a brighter note, my 8x10 of the "icysphere" shot just arrived and it looks awesome this big. I'm submitting it to a contest here in the region. For me, it's about feeling good about myself and my photography regardless of what others may think of it, or whether or not it wins. It'll just feel good to submit something and see what happens. Sure, there's always disappointment over not "winning" or even an honorable mention, but the act itself is gratifying. It's like saying, "look, I sweated and exhausted myself on 4 hours of sleep and I have this permanent reminder of that endeavor." lol, ok, so no one really talks to themselves like that but you get the point.

Andy · February 24, 2005

the point, harry

Harryb wrote:

...... Seesh.

the point is, is that never will 100% of the people be satisfied. i've been slammed many times over these challenges, and we've come thru the debates for the better - i'm all

s to hear constructive ideas about how things might be changed, as we've done over the past year.

but what i won't stand for is an indictment of you, shay, or anyone else who's judged, nor the participants nor finalists.

everyone should take a

as far as the format, etc and realize that these things happen every two weeks - that's 26 opportunities a year to challenge ourselves!

digital faerie · February 24, 2005

Charlie Brown wrote:

heres the thing, if you are entereing a contest (challenge) and you know that the judgesa re looking for a particular style, then would it not benefit you to try to attain that style or in the very least add a portion of that style to what you already do? if you did that you might have a better shot a tsome of the challenges, no on elikes to hear that people are not 100% bias free, im not andy isnt, neither is fish, you , wxwax, or anyone else here. we arent working in the judiciary here, its an online photography contest-pretty much for fun, so that we can all get better at our craft. i think youd be better served trying to win the contest by presenting what you think the judges are looking for as opposed to entering a photograph that you know isnt going to win because it isnt what the judges are looking for. if you do that and then feel that is a personal, instead of a content conflict then you have something to complain about, otherwise its pissin in the wind.

cb

maybe someone can help me out here because I wasn't aware of a "particular style" for challenge 32 (I point this one out specifically because it's the only one I've ever participated in being a newbie and all). I just see the guidelines for the challenge. am I missing something?

wxwax · February 24, 2005

digital faerie wrote:

maybe someone can help me out here because I wasn't aware of a "particular style" for challenge 32 (I point this one out specifically because it's the only one I've ever participated in being a newbie and all). I just see the guidelines for the challenge. am I missing something?

Only the conspiracy!

digital faerie · February 24, 2005

wxwax wrote:

Only the conspiracy!

:lol4

ok, that's it. moderators: we need a conspiracy smilie pronto!

maybe it could look like Nixon? lol

Charlie Brown · February 24, 2005

digital faerie wrote:

maybe someone can help me out here because I wasn't aware of a "particular style" for challenge 32 (I point this one out specifically because it's the only one I've ever participated in being a newbie and all). I just see the guidelines for the challenge. am I missing something?

i take crap photos, so im not going to be much help here but, from what i gathered damon thinks that there is a conspirace (thanks sid) in the judging process, he thinks that Andy is biased towards a particular style, what that is i dont know. perhaps it has to do with dogs or flowers i honestly dont know as i havent been on the site that long.

my comment was just saying that if you know that a particualr style is favored then you are doing yourself a disservice in a contest or challenge to not enter a photo in that style.

cb

Charlie Brown · February 24, 2005

digital faerie wrote:

:lol4

ok, that's it. moderators: we need a conspiracy smilie pronto!

maybe it could look like Nixon? lol

nice...

damonff · February 24, 2005

The style being referred to is Andy's taste. Find out what his taste is, then shoot your photo. Then, you'll be picked as a finalist. If you don't, you won't. I suggest looking at ads for Target, WalMart, or maybe even Trak Auto. Study the cheese, and make more. Then you'll be good for the challenge. Do anything else, read creative, and you'll be forgotten.

As far as your thick skin Andy, Harry said it best. You claim to have thick skin and then proceed to insult me. I guess we're in a sandbox in kindergarten.

My only point has been and will continue to be, the challenges are unfair in their present form. I don't want to win, it would be nice, but it's really not an issue. The issue is the fairness of the selection process which, if left to one pair of eyes ("this week's guest host didn't show up - AGAIN") is flawed.

Of course every contest is unfair. Shouldn't we then try to make it more fair instead of using a complacent excuse about how all contests are unfair? Does it hurt to look into one's self and recognize that MAYBE you are being unfair? Of course, that would be impossible, right? Because you're always right, right?

This is awful. I'm not sure what will happen at this point. Just some more name-calling and defamation I'm sure.

damonff · February 24, 2005

Charlie Brown wrote:

i take crap photos, so im not going to be much help here but, from what i gathered damon thinks that there is a conspirace (thanks sid) in the judging process, he thinks that Andy is biased towards a particular style, what that is i dont know. perhaps it has to do with dogs or flowers i honestly dont know as i havent been on the site that long.

my comment was just saying that if you know that a particualr style is favored then you are doing yourself a disservice in a contest or challenge to not enter a photo in that style.

cb

Interesting point. The day I take a photo to get praise from a second-rate photographer is the day I put the camera down.

Charlie Brown · February 24, 2005

damonff wrote:

Interesting point. The day I take a photo to get praise from a second-rate photographer is the day I put the camera down.

harsh bro, harsh.

ginger_55 · February 24, 2005

digital faerie wrote:

maybe someone can help me out here because I wasn't aware of a "particular style" for challenge 32 (I point this one out specifically because it's the only one I've ever participated in being a newbie and all). I just see the guidelines for the challenge. am I missing something?

In your case, digital faerie, I have no clue...........there were so many entries. I loved your entry. I am not going to go down the list and name all the entries I loved, I have forgotten some, and it would be my bias anyway.

Davidto, you cracked me up!

All I knew was that it was supposed to be about color.

I was never sure what predominant color was, I did feel I pretty much had it, but there were so many good entries I did not pretty much figure I was an automatic choice. Some challenges I don't care about, this one I did. The finals, mostly. I know I do care what Andy thinks. With the number of years he has had in the photography world, I think he has a lot of knowledge to base his picks on.

I don't know what David would have picked, digital faerie, but I would have picked yours. Actually I think I would have picked 15 finalists since there was such a large field.

I know that in this category, emotions, it is a bit clearer to me what is important. A facial expression, or some other strong way of showing emotion for a subject.

So, where my first entry, tues, might have been OK, the mother is chastising the poor little girl. By acting on Angelo's comment, I made the little girl more important in the photograph, showing that her emotions were the subject.

Now a lot of people have not entered yet, that may not be enough to be picked, but so be it. I like it. Not that I would blow it up and frame it. It is not personal to me. It is perfection to me for what I wanted, but it is not personal. Your ice thing, that is beautiful, just beautiful. I wish we had a huge gallery and all the money where we could blow up our photographs with a representation of styles.

And I would put Damon's entry in as one of the styles. I would put yours, mine, everyone's.............a huge gallery. One photo per person, we could rotate.

I was talking about a real live gallery, but what about a virtual one? Just a thought.

I am rambling.

g

digital faerie · February 24, 2005

ok, ok, how about this:

for those that have been participating in challenges and have played moderators, judges, and participants, how about making suggestions on revising the judging process, and who plays judge?

the point being, is that many people have said the selection process is a bit skewed, myself included. what if we had the past 5 challenge winners pick the top 10? The only reason I can explain this is to give you a hypothetical example:

let's say the challenge had to do with best motocross action shot. now if I was a judge, i'd be like a fish out of water, and I would need a dialogue with fellow judges to discern what it is I should be looking for. Does that make sense? Some might say this is just catering to another's bias about what makes a good motocross shot, but if someone mentions "excitement" as a basis for a good submission, then I can formulate my own opinion about the photograph at hand.

maybe this idea should be a thread similar to the "suggestions for future challenges here".

Andy, what's your take on the judging? I'm not going to attack you or anyone else on this board for that matter because it doesn't fix anything. I really like this board and wish to stay a welcome member of it, lol. But what's your take on this really?

it's like death and taxes, there's always room for improvement right?

Shay Stephens · February 24, 2005

How about something like this:

digital faerie wrote:

:lol4

ok, that's it. moderators: we need a conspiracy smilie pronto!

maybe it could look like Nixon? lol

digital faerie · February 24, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

In your case, digital faerie, I have no clue...........there were so many entries. I loved your entry. I am not going to go down the list and name all the entries I loved, I have forgotten some, and it would be my bias anyway.

Davidto, you cracked me up!

All I knew was that it was supposed to be about color.

I was never sure what predominant color was, I did feel I pretty much had it, but there were so many good entries I did not pretty much figure I was an automatic choice. Some challenges I don't care about, this one I did. The finals, mostly. I know I do care what Andy thinks. With the number of years he has had in the photography world, I think he has a lot of knowledge to base his picks on.

I don't know what David would have picked, digital faerie, but I would have picked yours. Actually I think I would have picked 15 finalists since there was such a large field.

I know that in this category, emotions, it is a bit clearer to me what is important. A facial expression, or some other strong way of showing emotion for a subject.

So, where my first entry, tues, might have been OK, the mother is chastising the poor little girl. By acting on Angelo's comment, I made the little girl more important in the photograph, showing that her emotions were the subject.

Now a lot of people have not entered yet, that may not be enough to be picked, but so be it. I like it. Not that I would blow it up and frame it. It is not personal to me. It is perfection to me for what I wanted, but it is not personal. Your ice thing, that is beautiful, just beautiful. I wish we had a huge gallery and all the money where we could blow up our photographs with a representation of styles.

And I would put Damon's entry in as one of the styles. I would put yours, mine, everyone's.............a huge gallery. One photo per person, we could rotate.

I was talking about a real live gallery, but what about a virtual one? Just a thought.

I am rambling.

g

wow, I'm touched by that. that means a lot to me coming from someone whose work I have respect for.

And that's what's missing in some of these complaints really, respect for opinions and other's work.

that's an interesting idea, though, increasing the number of finalists based on how many entries there are....hmmm. No less than 10 "finalists", but with 30-50, maybe a max of 15 finalists? food for thought!

Charlie Brown · February 24, 2005

again im new here, but i think that if we put all of the entries in to a poll gave everyone 3 votes to choose the top finalists, the top 15 finalists get in then we do another poll where everyone gets 1 vote. no one votes for themselves and the people decide. i know this isnt the bist idea but atlest its a new one.

cb

Harryb · February 24, 2005

damonff wrote:

thanks Harry...is that egret a brunette?

blond

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