Question about sensors used in digi cams

Dee · February 25, 2005

I'm just back from the Monterey Bay Aquarium where my Sony f828 struggled in the dim and dimmer light to capture images for me.

I'm not very technical minded, but I do know a CMOS would be less noisy than the CCD.

Among the digital cameras that use the less noisy sensor, are the images from manufacturer to manufacturer the same (using the same sensor) or different, and if different how...

What I'm trying to ask is if Nikon and Canon use the same sensor, other than manufacturer loyalty or feature set, what is the digital image difference?

Thanks! Remember, make it easy to understand please

:

bkriete · February 25, 2005

Canon is the only company using CMOS chips (I think). Nikon uses CCD sensors. I think what you might be talking about is a sensor size issue. The smaller a sensor gets, and the smaller the pixel-sensor sites are, the more likely they are to be affected by basically a tiny random event. The reason a 6.3 megapixel Canon has less noise than a 6 megapixel consumer camera is because the sensor, and hence the pixel sites, are much larger.

Nee7x7 · February 25, 2005

Dee wrote:

I'm just back from the Monterey Bay Aquarium where my Sony f828 struggled in the dim and dimmer light to capture images for me.

What I'm trying to ask is if Nikon and Canon use the same sensor, other than manufacturer loyalty or feature set, what is the digital image difference?

Oh, you lil' stinker! I've been wanting to go to the Monterey Bay Aquarium for ages,

! But you know, I've had the same issues with my 828 in low light (sigh). Sure miss my 717 in that respect... :cry

So....you're thinking of going DSLR, eh? Yup, you know I am too... The 828 has it's good points, but overall, I'm just not that happy with it. Seems it only takes great pics at ISO 64, (at least that's how mine is), so I've really missed taking night shots with it.

The new Canon DRebel XT might be just the ticket for us both! I wasn't terribly impressed with the first photos Phil published from it...hopefully, the image quality will be better when he has more time to try the camera out! I downloaded a couple of pics from his preview, and there was red fringing on the white areas, plus some color blooming and the pics seemed overexposed. If the XT doesn't cut it, then I'm still caught between the D70 and the 20D (which is a little pricey for my budget, so I'm still waffling on it.)

I liked a lot of things about the D70, but I wish it had ISO 100 and more pixels! Dave Kapp has one, and he has some really awesome photos in his portfolio. He also posted a message on dgrin with a link to a site where you could download different curve settings for the Nikon, which is pretty kewl! You can download some firmware upgrades (created by Nikon owners) to add other new settings to the D70, (I think one of the upgrades gave you the option of a higher pixel count!), and apparantly Nikon won't void your warranty if you do! In fact, it appears they actually extend your warranty if you ever need to send the camera in for a fix, which is pretty cool!

I'm really torn, because I do like the look of the images the 20D produces, but there are some issues with the camera (besides the higher price and heavier size and weight) that have me hesitant. And the different curves and upgrades you can add to the Nikon are pretty sweet...so the inner struggle goes on and on...

Humungus has ordered his new camera (he beat me to it!), but I think I'll probably be ordering mine within the next 2-3 weeks. How about you? What are your inner demons telling you to do,

? (Are we totally addicted, or what??!!???)

Cheers!
~Nee

Dee · February 25, 2005

CCD vs CMOS

Nee7x7 wrote:

Oh, you lil' stinker! I've been wanting to go to the Monterey Bay Aquarium for ages, ! But you know, I've had the same issues with my 828 in low light (sigh). Sure miss my 717 in that respect... :cry

I seem to remember my Sony S70 doing better with the jellyfish. I did manage to get maybe 3 images of them with the 828. Will have to print them out and see how they came out. At 4 x 6 they should be fine, but you know me, I want my 13x19 prints!

Nee7x7 wrote:

So....you're thinking of going DSLR, eh?

Ah, you know me, I always want the latest and greatest! But I don't have a budget right now for any new cameras. I still think I will wait a couple of years and see what the future brings.

Nee7x7 wrote:

I liked a lot of things about the D70, but I wish it had ISO 100 and more pixels!

Dave Kapp has one, and he has some really awesome photos in his portfolio. He also posted a message on dgrin with a link to a site where you could download different curve settings for the Nikon, which is pretty kewl! You can download some firmware upgrades (created by Nikon owners) to add other new settings to the D70, (I think one of the upgrades gave you the option of a higher pixel count!), and apparantly Nikon won't void your warranty if you do! In fact, it appears they actually extend your warranty if you ever need to send the camera in for a fix, which is pretty cool!

The Nikon D70 uses a CCD sensor, the Canon uses CMOS. If Nikon is using a CCD wouldn't we have the same noise problems?

As for that Dave Kapp -- don't judge until you see the original, straight out of the camera, original size image!

Any photographer you admire will do pretty well with any camera you hand them!

What I'd rather hear (and we never do) is a photographer saying, wow, with this new (insert name of newest wonder camera here) I can do this... where I couldn't with my old (insert name of old camera here) and this is why it is making me a better photographer...

How's that for a challenge?

dkapp · February 25, 2005

Nee7x7 wrote:

I liked a lot of things about the D70, but I wish it had ISO 100 and more pixels! Dave Kapp has one, and he has some really awesome photos in his portfolio. He also posted a message on dgrin with a link to a site where you could download different curve settings for the Nikon, which is pretty kewl! You can download some firmware upgrades (created by Nikon owners) to add other new settings to the D70, (I think one of the upgrades gave you the option of a higher pixel count!), and apparantly Nikon won't void your warranty if you do! In fact, it appears they actually extend your warranty if you ever need to send the camera in for a fix, which is pretty cool!

Humungus has ordered his new camera
Cheers!
~Nee

Hey Nee!

Just saw the post & thought I'd comment real quick. Regarding the firmware, I don't have any experience with it. I don't think Nikon would extend the warranty with the upgrade if you install it. And with increasing the MP of the camera, thats the physical sensor. Not something upgradable by firmware.

Do you have a link to this info. I'd like to read more about it.

The curves are a great feature if you shoot JPG, or want a quick processing technique. This will apply tone curves that will increase dynamic range, keep from blowing highlights as easily, or bring out shadow detail. You can change these with software & load them on the camera depending on shooting conditions.

You can find more on curves here.

Dave

wxwax · February 25, 2005

From my experience, from what I've read, and based on what I've seen, all prosumer cameras have lots of noise at ISOs above 100. It's a chronic condition.

So I suspect you wouldn't get much better results with a Canon G6 or Pro1, for example.

Check out the reviews at www.dpreview.com - they're sure to talk about low light, noisy images.

It's the weakness of this segment of the market. The only solution is to throw lots of money at the problem and get a DSLR that handles high ISO's better. It's one of the key areas in which each new generation of DSLR improves.

Nee7x7 · February 25, 2005

dkapp wrote:

Hey Nee!

Regarding the firmware, I don't have any experience with it. I don't think Nikon would extend the warranty with the upgrade if you install it. And with increasing the MP of the camera, thats the physical sensor. Not something upgradable by firmware.

Do you have a link to this info. I'd like to read more about it.
Dave

Hi Dave,

Sorry! Maybe I got my info wrong?

I'm kicking myself now for not saving all the links to pages I've visited. I'll see if I can find the link again, but I spent a lot of time today cruising different Nikon related sites, so it may be another time consuming and potentially fruitless venture.

I do remember one person writing (on another forum) that they had done something to alter their camera (maybe it was with owner created custom curves, but I seem to recall the discussion being about customer created firmware "fixes" as well...) and they sent it in to Nikon for some other issue, and Nikon extended their warranty (the writer claimed that Nikon will extend the warranty anytime you send a camera in!).

Sorry if I've posted any misinformation... In my eagerness and excitement of learning about the ability to download custom settings for the D70, I should have made sure to provide links to back up what I wrote. Sorry 'bout that! I'll do some more searching to see if I can figure out where the information was that lead me to believe you could "hack" the D70 with private sector firmware upgrades that would make it more "feature rich".

Stay Tuned...(I'm gonna go search now!)
I'll be back asap...
~Nee

Nee7x7 · February 26, 2005

Wellllll...

Nee7x7 wrote:

Hi Dave,

Sorry! Maybe I got my info wrong?

~Nee

I can't seem to find what I was looking for, so I must have been mistaken (darn!). I'll try a few more leads before I totally give up. Sorry for not having my info straight. I'll go hide in my corner now...

Cheers!
~Nee :hide

fish · February 26, 2005

FWIW, the Nikon D2x will sport a CMOS sensor made by Sony.

Dee · February 26, 2005

You'd think

fish wrote:

FWIW, the Nikon D2x will sport a CMOS sensor made by Sony.

They'd share their technology then with us Sony users! I wonder what they have up their sleeve at Sony's R&D?

David_S85 · February 26, 2005

Dee wrote:

They'd share their technology then with us Sony users! I wonder what they have up their sleeve at Sony's R&D?

Unfortunately, that new Sony CMOS design is not usable in an 828 replacement. Even sized down to the 2/3" sensor size, it can't refresh fast enough for use in an EVF. Now, if Sony were to produce a real SLR or 4/3rds system, then perhaps.... I'm not holding my breath for that to happen. The 350D (D'Reb XT) blows the doors off anything Sony could sell in that price range. Hate to say it, but the F-series cams look to be a dead end marketability-wise for sales enough to pay any realistic dividends. (...and I'd still like to see an update of the '8, if Sony could pull a rabbit outta their hats)

That said, for IR work, some video, basic walk-around use or vacation/travel cam, not much can beat that 'ol 828 or 717.

Question about sensors used in digi cams

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