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Night Shot Noise
Hello everyone. I have been lurking for quite a while and have finally joined. The photography I see here is pretty amazing stuff. That's why I am asking for some help.
I have taken my first "real" night shot of the Golden Gate Bridge. My biggest issue is noise. The shot was taken on a Panasonic DMC-FZ8 - 15 seconds, F/8, ISO 100. The shot is extremely grainy. I would like to ask the following:
Is this caused by the settings I used? Or is it the camera? I have read that this camera has some pretty significant noise issues. Fortunately, it is not my camera - it belongs to the company I work for. Soon I will be getting a hand-me-down Nikon D50.
On to the picture. Any help would be highly appreciated.
(For Original Size: http://dubenvy.smugmug.com/gallery/3130026#221011953)
I have taken my first "real" night shot of the Golden Gate Bridge. My biggest issue is noise. The shot was taken on a Panasonic DMC-FZ8 - 15 seconds, F/8, ISO 100. The shot is extremely grainy. I would like to ask the following:
Is this caused by the settings I used? Or is it the camera? I have read that this camera has some pretty significant noise issues. Fortunately, it is not my camera - it belongs to the company I work for. Soon I will be getting a hand-me-down Nikon D50.
On to the picture. Any help would be highly appreciated.
(For Original Size: http://dubenvy.smugmug.com/gallery/3130026#221011953)
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It's been my experience that low light and/or overly shadowy areas tend to have noise no matter what.
My question is where did you meter? Did you meter from the sky? Next time around if you meter off a bright spot such as the lights it will push the noise done some. That's one thing you can try.
What would be the best metering for this type of shot? Spot?
I appreciate the help. I am learning as fast as I can so I don't have to ask such newb questions...
Typically what I do in low light situations (such as concerts, where the contrast of the dark and light has a nice effect) is to meter off the brightest point, expose it so it's neutral, and then take the shot.
I'm assuming this is your camera you're talking about (The FZ8K was the only one listed). It's definitely newer than the Lumix I had (mine is about 3 or 4 years old) and has more MP's. But mine wasn't great with noise. All my pictures were grainy, even in good conditions (I currently have a Rebel XTI (Canon 400D) and shoot with my 40D).
Yes, that is the correct camera. Like I said, it belongs to my company. My personal camera is an old Canon A75. I am going to try this same type of picture using my camera tomorrow morning and see if I get the same kind of grain.
I actually tend to get a lot of noise in most of my shots that are any slower than about 1/30 second. It doesn't matter what ISO or F-stop, White Balance, metering, etc. That's why I am tending to believe it is the camera. Several reviews I have read state the Panasonics have issues with noise...
Thank you for your help. Can't wait to get my hands on the Nikon hand-me-down. Luckily, since I am not going to have to spend $600 or more on a DSLR, I can use that same money for the Nikon 18-200 lens.
I say just play with the settings. I noticed you shot it with an aperture of f/8? Why not open it up all the way (I'm assuming it will be 2 or 2.8) and speed up the shutter speed a bit? If you're not zoomed in at all, and shooting something like a landscape far off, the depth of field won't be an issue.
Also, on the left spire of the bridge, I think I saw some motion blur, which may be the result of the slow shutter speed. Opening up the aperture will allow you to speed it up. I've read stories about how 1/15 of a second is the worst shutter speed in cameras, because it's the approximate time that the mirror takes to move up and down, therefore even with a tripod the mirror can cause a little motion blur by shaking the camera.
Speaking of tripods, did you use one? Handholding at 1/15 is tricky at best. I've gotten lucky with some shots at 1/10 and 1/5, it's definitely luck and not skill. Try it again with a tripod, opent he Aperture 9 stops (I'm assuming if you have the same f stops I do) and then speed up the shutter 9 stops (1/15 to ~1/125th). That would give you an equivalent exposure that you have right now, but will allow more volume of light while reducing camera shake/motion blur (and if you want more "ambient" light, you could still do 2.8, but open the shutter to about 1/100 to 1/60. Both of these shoudl still work).
Given that you have noise and it is what it is. I have been using Neat Image to remove the noise from my sports shots taken at 1600 ISO and from restored images and it works very well and it is free. I use the free version of my Windows laptop and a licensed version on my Mac.
This may give you an option to salvage an image you like but is noisy.
www.neatimage.com
RI Photographer | RI Wedding Photographer
There two basic reasons for increased noise in an image.
The first is the size of the pixel well - the individual well that captures the photons - plays a major role in how much variation - noise - occurs in a single pixel of an image. The pixel well size is usually strongly related to sensor size. The sensor in your camera is smaller than an APS sized sensor, I believe, so some of the noise is "built in"
The ISO you choose can also play a role, but your choice of ISO 100 was a good one. If your camera supports ISO 80, or 50, that might have been a little better. The aperture of f8 for a landscape shot with a P&S was a good one. You might have use f5.6 but sacrificed a little depth of field for a faster shutter speed. f2.8 would not be likely to give you enough depth of field and might not be as sharp optically as f5.6 or f8, but it would allow a faster shutter speed - I try to avoid 1/8th and 1/15th if at all possible too.
Lenses generally are sharpest about 2 stops smaller than their maximum, unless you buy expensive Pro level lenses and even those are usually a little better, stopped down a bit, hence the reason to shoot at f5,6 or f8 in a landscape shot like yours
Another big cause of digital noise is under-exposure in large dark areas of the image. Shooting RAW might help diminish noise, if your camera supports it. Some of this under-exposure is impossible to avoid without totally blowing the highlights in a night time image, since the contrast range between dark shadows and bright lights is so high.
These kinds of images do usually respond fairly well to Noise Ninja, NoiseWear, Neat Image - software that digitally reduces image noise at a modest cost in image sharpness.
One other thought that occurs to me, is that noise like you see in your image will be much more apparent on an LCD screen than it will be in a print.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
Nah, I don't think so. I appreciate all you have written.
I appreciate all of the help from everyone. I am learning and that's the best part.
As I said yesterday, I would try to take a shot using my personal camera - a 3 year-old Canon A75. The shot below was taken at 5:30 this morning from pretty much the same place. F/8, 15 seconds, AWB, Spot Meter. The only difference is the A75 allowed IS) 50. The picture is still noisy, but not quite so much. And once again, there is a little bit of motion blur. I think this is because of the wind on the headlands this morning. I am using a tripod. My horizontal alignment is a bit off, I know. I just wanted to post this picture as it came out of my camera, no post-processing.
Thanks again for all of the help.
Ozzy
I think I will try it at maybe F/4 either tonight or tomorrow morning (depends on fog conditions). Like it's been said, try different settings...
~Sparky~
UFraw B/c Im a Linux User... sorry bout that....
Sparkyphotography.net
Yeah, I do as well. It looks better without the clouds. Got lucky to be able to get this. The foghorns were going pretty steadily until about 4:00 AM this morning. At 5:30 - fog was gone!
Hoping to get the Nikon this weekend and will try with it and then post again. I am going to try Neat Image as was suggested earlier. Hopefully that will help these shots.
Ozzy
Thank you for the information on Neat Image. I downloaded the Demo and have tried it. What a difference. Here is the shot from this morning processed with Neat Image:
The difference is pretty cool.
Ozzy