Noob new camera purchase questions in jump from P&S to DSLR

Jay Bird · December 1, 2007

Hello,
I've been a long time lurker here and I have come out of the closet to delurk and ask the requisite beginner noob questions.

First of all my background.
I am a hobbyist photographer who started out with film back in the days of instamatics and flash cubes, wow I am old aren't I, anyway moved through a few film cameras had a Pentax K1000 setup with a few different lenses and then found the digital point and shoot world. My point and shoot an Olympus C-50 Zoom has served me well and it has produced some nice shoots from some nice places, and I will always have a P&S in my stable but I feel that I have outgrown it's capabilities in many ways so it is time to step into the world of DSLR.

What I take pictures of is a range from the candid family and friends party pics indoors and outdoors, outdoor scenes and nature stuff, the dogs, and some action shots in my playing around with motorcycles and boats. Of coarse Smugmug has made me a bit of the family and friends hero because I am able to share my photos with them as never before so I feel the pressure not to disappoint.

So as always budget is the constraining factor in my purchase and it seems as though I have narrowed my list down to the Canon EOS 350D / Rebel XT or the Pentax K100D Super the megapixels seem about right since I probably don't need to print over 8x10 and the feature sets on both seem to suit my entry level status and of coarse the price points suit my budget. In addition I have held both cameras and they both have good ergonomics for my oversize mit.

Some additional background is that I looked at the Nikon D40 and ruled it out based on ergonomics. Also I need to purchase new because I am using some gift cards.

Oh and one other thing is that image stabilization I feel is an important feature as the old hands are not as steady as they once were.
Oh and one more second thing I checked my old Pentax lenses and I doubt that they would be of any use on the K100D since they are of questionable quality.

I would welcome any and all opinions and feedback on my choices from this well respected group.

Thanks,
Drake

ian408 · December 2, 2007

The Rebel is a great camera. You may find it a bit slow for some motorsport.
Slow to focus in some situations. I do think you'll be happy with it.

Tee Why · December 2, 2007

I don't think the Pentax is as responsive in terms of frames per second, buffer size, and in terms of battery life. Between 6 and 8MP's, there is a bit of a difference, although I'm not sure if it'll make a difference in prints about 8x10. In terms of stabilization, the in body one of Pentax is nice but the new 18-55mm IS kit lens from Canon is very nice optically and would give you image stabilization as well.

If you are thinking about upgrading and adding accesories/lenses, Canon and Nikon offers the best array and options to choose from as some aftermarket companies may not make an item for Pentax, or they may be not as available. Canon tends to be more predictable in terms of upgrades and new models if you are inclined to move up to higher level bodies.

So I guess I'm saying go with Canon. It won't give you better images or anything but may make getting accessories, lenses, and upgrades a bit easier.

Miguel Delinquento · December 2, 2007

go for the Pentax
Well we all have a bit of brand bias I assume, so I'll share my Pentax bias with you.(I also own Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Minolta, Mamiya/Sekor, Polaroid, Konica cameras) I've owned a K10D for four weeks or so, and prior to that the *DS for two years. I've enjoyed using both cameras immensely.
I think the K100D Super would serve you quite well. The Pentax and compatible lens selection is broad enough for most non-professionals. The used market is hotter for Pentax than for most other brands because 40-year old lenses don't lose their functionality; in fact they gain some powerful features. The IS is built into the body, so those old lenses of yours would have that functionality. Lenses that are optically stabilzed are very expensive. I use the IS frequently and can get good results handheld down to about 1/8th; very good 1/15.
I use a lot of old lenses including M42 screwmounts and "M" type; the in-focus red flashing will work with them too.
I tried an XT a few years ago and was put off by its plasticky nature. The K100D S is very well built and ergonomic. The 18-55 kit lens is significantly better optically than those offered by the larger brands. I also like how you can use either rechargeable AAs in the camera or the Lithium CRV3s. The K100D Super uses the same Sony sensor as similar Nikon models. It performs very well at high ISO including 3200 if your requirements are that extreme.
Finally, the K100D Super is a bargain. I've seen deals recently for the kit at <$450 or so.
At this point in the game, all DSLRs will provide excellent image making with future expansion capabilities. To me user interface, weight, and value are key factors to purchase one over the other.
Consider taking one the K100D super for a trial use and to see if your old lenses will work. Which ones do you have?
M

Jay Bird · December 2, 2007

ian408 wrote:

The Rebel is a great camera. You may find it a bit slow for some motorsport.
Slow to focus in some situations. I do think you'll be happy with it.

Ian,
Thanks for the response, I guess my big concern on the Canon is if the XT has image stabilization or not. But I see from other replies that it is available through the lenses. I am still weighing the importance of IS but I do feel it would be of benefit to me.

Jay Bird · December 3, 2007

Tee Why wrote:

I don't think the Pentax is as responsive in terms of frames per second, buffer size, and in terms of battery life. Between 6 and 8MP's, there is a bit of a difference, although I'm not sure if it'll make a difference in prints about 8x10. In terms of stabilization, the in body one of Pentax is nice but the new 18-55mm IS kit lens from Canon is very nice optically and would give you image stabilization as well.

If you are thinking about upgrading and adding accesories/lenses, Canon and Nikon offers the best array and options to choose from as some aftermarket companies may not make an item for Pentax, or they may be not as available. Canon tends to be more predictable in terms of upgrades and new models if you are inclined to move up to higher level bodies.

So I guess I'm saying go with Canon. It won't give you better images or anything but may make getting accessories, lenses, and upgrades a bit easier.

TW,
Thanks for the reply. Image stabilization was a concern for me on the XT so I am happy to see it is at least available through the lenses. As a complete noob in this area could you tell me or give me a reference as to what Canon lenses are in the IS family. You reference the 18-55mm kit lens being IS would that be what they are currently shipping with?

Jay Bird · December 3, 2007

Miguel Delinquento wrote:

Well we all have a bit of brand bias I assume, so I'll share my Pentax bias with you.(I also own Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Minolta, Mamiya/Sekor, Polaroid, Konica cameras) I've owned a K10D for four weeks or so, and prior to that the *DS for two years. I've enjoyed using both cameras immensely.
I think the K100D Super would serve you quite well. The Pentax and compatible lens selection is broad enough for most non-professionals. The used market is hotter for Pentax than for most other brands because 40-year old lenses don't lose their functionality; in fact they gain some powerful features. The IS is built into the body, so those old lenses of yours would have that functionality. Lenses that are optically stabilzed are very expensive. I use the IS frequently and can get good results handheld down to about 1/8th; very good 1/15.
I use a lot of old lenses including M42 screwmounts and "M" type; the in-focus red flashing will work with them too.
I tried an XT a few years ago and was put off by its plasticky nature. The K100D S is very well built and ergonomic. The 18-55 kit lens is significantly better optically than those offered by the larger brands. I also like how you can use either rechargeable AAs in the camera or the Lithium CRV3s. The K100D Super uses the same Sony sensor as similar Nikon models. It performs very well at high ISO including 3200 if your requirements are that extreme.
Finally, the K100D Super is a bargain. I've seen deals recently for the kit at <$450 or so.
At this point in the game, all DSLRs will provide excellent image making with future expansion capabilities. To me user interface, weight, and value are key factors to purchase one over the other.
Consider taking one the K100D super for a trial use and to see if your old lenses will work. Which ones do you have?
M

Miguel,
Thanks for the reply, and the Pentax viewpoint. I do realize that if I go with Pentax there will be certian market limitations on accessories based on market share and that is a factor in my decision.
But it does seem that Pentax offers a lot of features on the K100D Super at a rock bottom entry level price point such as a dust removal system and image stabilization in the body.
My old Pentax lenses are the kit issue 50mm and a Sigma 70-200mm f3.5 with macro and it looks like the coating on the sigma has gone bad if that is possible.
So I will be investing in lenses along the way as well as other acessories. One item that looks like it is not available for the K100D is a battery grip like that for the K10D which really made the camera feel better in my big hands, but I can see why with AA power how it would be seen as not needed.
As a Pentax user let me ask you about firmware updates, does Pentax offer any, or in a timely fashion?

ian408 · December 3, 2007

Jay Bird wrote:

Ian,
Thanks for the response, I guess my big concern on the Canon is if the XT has image stabilization or not. But I see from other replies that it is available through the lenses. I am still weighing the importance of IS but I do feel it would be of benefit to me.

IS is built into the lens.

I think it is useful but not always necessary. It's a nice to have item.

Miguel Delinquento · December 3, 2007

Jay Bird wrote:

Miguel,
[deleted]
As a Pentax user let me ask you about firmware updates, does Pentax offer any, or in a timely fashion?

I don't know about specifics for the K100D line, but you can easily go to the Pentax website and see what has been released.
I do know that for the K10D there have been three releases. Valuable functionality has been part of the firmware updates, including compatiblity with SDM lenses (that the Super has out of the box), and more programming functions for the dials and such.
I also own a *DS and there were two or three firmware updates as well. One was major, it brought some functions up to par with the then newly released *DS2 model.
So, I'd say Pentax is pretty responsive to new requirements.

Re: Both your lenses should work just fine. Most of the 50mm are excellent lenses that now become portrait-type. The better ones were f 1.7, 1.4, 1.2, but the f2 has its fans. I love my FA50mm 1.4 which was just reviewed after ten years in the latest Popular Photography mag.
I would take that Sigma to a store and test it out on a new DSLR. Bring an SD card along so you can see if any lens coating-related defects are visible. If the lens works, it should save you a fair amount of money to get started with learning the camera. There are third party grips out there, but I don't think they are as ergonomic as the K10D one (which is amazing, I've owned mine for a few weeks now and have not removed it).
M

claudermilk · December 3, 2007

It's a hard choice between those two. I think either one will serve your needs well. I am Canon-biased as that's my system of choice now & has served me very well, but having played with the K10D it seemed like a legitimate competitor.

On the IS, Canon and Nikon are lens-based so the mechanism is in the lens and optimized for the lens in which it's installed. On everyone else (AFAIK) it's body-based and basically is shaking the sensor. The body-based system gives those brands a nice marketing point of "all our lenses are automatically IS" while C & N point to the fact that their IS is built specifically for the lens in question. I personally prefer the lens-based. Oh, and the kit 18-55 does not have IS--there is a 17-55 that has it, and the kit 17-85 has it.

Edit: uhhh...I guess there is an IS version of the 18-55 now. Huh. Well, I know nothing about it as it's news to me.

Miguel Delinquento · December 3, 2007

claudermilk wrote:

[deleted]
On the IS, Canon and Nikon are lens-based so the mechanism is in the lens and optimized for the lens in which it's installed. On everyone else (AFAIK) it's body-based and basically is shaking the sensor. The body-based system gives those brands a nice marketing point of "all our lenses are automatically IS" while C & N point to the fact that their IS is built specifically for the lens in question. [deleted]

"Marketing point" my eye! Body-based IS works. For older lenses you have to tell the system what the focal length is and it matters. Newer lenses automatically share this data with the camera. As I noted above, I'm getting 2-3 stops benefit from this function for each of my 18 lenses. Certainly you can perceive the value of this approach to image stabilization.

On an economic level, the older (and the methods go back to film days) lens-based approach is a racket of sorts--users have to cut over to pricey new fangled lenses. Now I'm sure that in-lens systems work wonders; they probably get the user a stop more than body-based approaches, and if that's one's firm requirement, then it's cool with me. But I'm happy saving a few thousand bucks with the newer approach and getting to use fine legacy glass.
M

Dogdots · December 3, 2007

I've been following this thread and notice that no one has mentioned the Sony Alpha which has the IS in the body. Unless I have this wrong.

I wasn't sure about the IS in the camera when I was looking for a camera. I couldn't figure out how the camera could stabilize what the lens was doing---reading the posts kinda changed my mind

I sapose there are many different opinions on this subject.

I have to say that I have found the IS in my lenses to serve me well on the Rebel XTI. I've seen some photos my friend takes with his Sony.....

Dogdots/Mary

Jay Bird · December 4, 2007

Miguel Delinquento wrote:

**snip**
I would take that Sigma to a store and test it out on a new DSLR. Bring an SD card along so you can see if any lens coating-related defects are visible.
M

Miguel,
That is great advise and it's why I love these forums...

Miguel Delinquento · December 4, 2007

One more thing
Thanks.
One more thing: on the K100D and the K10D you have to change a custom setting to allow the use of "old style" aperture rings on lenses. Many sales folks are clueless about this so here you go, it's easy:
1. Press the menu button on the camera's back.
2. In the LCD move 4 screens right with the 4-way button until you see the C Custom Setting screen.
3. Scroll about 2-4 screen-lengths down until you can select the "Using Aperture Ring" line item.
4. Press the right(see arrow) 4-way button, highlight "Permitted"
5. Click on the OK button in the middle of the 4-way button twice to get out of the menu.
6. Move the mode dial to AV or TV and shoot away.
Enjoy!
M

Jay Bird · December 4, 2007

Miguel Delinquento wrote:

"Marketing point" my eye! Body-based IS works. For older lenses you have to tell the system what the focal length is and it matters. Newer lenses automatically share this data with the camera. As I noted above, I'm getting 2-3 stops benefit from this function for each of my 18 lenses. Certainly you can perceive the value of this approach to image stabilization.

On an economic level, the older (and the methods go back to film days) lens-based approach is a racket of sorts--users have to cut over to pricey new fangled lenses. Now I'm sure that in-lens systems work wonders; they probably get the user a stop more than body-based approaches, and if that's one's firm requirement, then it's cool with me. But I'm happy saving a few thousand bucks with the newer approach and getting to use fine legacy glass.
M

Ok I’m sure there have been lots of electrons killed in this discussion and if I think about it too much I start having psychotropic flashbacks.
But at the risk of going down the road where if a tree falls in the woods and there is no one there, what is the price of tea in china…

If the end result of capturing the image is the photons hitting the sensor, then shouldn’t image stabilization in the body be able to compensate for whatever the lens is doing irregardless of the lens. If not better than in the lens.
Then maybe you could even make the argument that image stabilization in post processing is the way to go since the camera only collects raw data that is then processed through the software. I think I saw this on a CSI episode one time...

As I say, I am a noob at this so forgive my ramblings.
I have a lot to learn, and if I don’t learn something new everyday than I start to worry.

As a side note is Image Stabilization a byproduct of our aging baby boom generation’s need to compensate for our less than steady hands or is Image stabilization an inherent anomaly of the digital domain. I do not remember having these issues with 35mm film formats.

Jay Bird · December 4, 2007

Dogdots wrote:

I've been following this thread and notice that no one has mentioned the Sony Alpha which has the IS in the body. Unless I have this wrong.

I wasn't sure about the IS in the camera when I was looking for a camera. I couldn't figure out how the camera could stabilize what the lens was doing---reading the posts kinda changed my mind I sapose there are many different opinions on this subject.

I have to say that I have found the IS in my lenses to serve me well on the Rebel XTI. I've seen some photos my friend takes with his Sony.....

Dogdots/Mary

Dogdots/Mary,

First as a dog person let me say that I love your username and I’m sure there is a great story behind it…

I did not really give the Sony consideration in my review process so I appreciate your giving me a heads up on it, and I will give it a look. I had not considered Sony because of their dedication to the memory stick but I see the A100 uses compact flash for memory.

Thanks,
Drake

Jay Bird · December 4, 2007

Miguel Delinquento wrote:

Thanks.
One more thing: on the K100D and the K10D you have to change a custom setting to allow the use of "old style" aperture rings on lenses. Many sales folks are clueless about this so here you go, it's easy:
1. Press the menu button on the camera's back.
2. In the LCD move 4 screens right with the 4-way button until you see the C Custom Setting screen.
3. Scroll about 2-4 screen-lengths down until you can select the "Using Aperture Ring" line item.
4. Press the right(see arrow) 4-way button, highlight "Permitted"
5. Click on the OK button in the middle of the 4-way button twice to get out of the menu.
6. Move the mode dial to AV or TV and shoot away.
Enjoy!
M

Fantastic, thanks Miguel.

This kind of leads me into another area where I have soo much to learn, but I think I read somewhere here at Dgrin about the inability of DSLR bodies and lenses to properly communicate information and thereby not transferring the lens exposure data with the file information.
If I have said this right…

Miguel Delinquento · December 4, 2007

Jay Bird wrote:

Fantastic, thanks Miguel.

This kind of leads me into another area where I have soo much to learn, but I think I read somewhere here at Dgrin about the inability of DSLR bodies and lenses to properly communicate information and thereby not transferring the lens exposure data with the file information.
If I have said this right…

That is the general concept. Newer AF lenses from most manufacturers will communicate all the critical information with the camera CPU. Certainly all the lenses designed for DLSRs will.
Moving backwards from there it gets complicated.How much information is communicated between lenses and the camera cpu depends on how much commitment the camera manufacturer has made to ensure legacy glass works with new product.
Olympus, which makes wonderful cameras, started from ground zero and pretty much obsoleted their old lenses. You can buy adapters, but they are pricey and only provide limited functionality. Some old lenses can only be used at wide open aperture, others lose focusing feedback or all automatic exposure capability. This is true for most of the DSLR manufacturers.
Few camera manufacturers have equaled Pentax's support of legacy glass for better or for worse. It makes the used market very viable, but due to Pentax's small market share, some speciality lenses like a 2.8 autofocus 300mm will sell for more money used than a new Canon similar lens. But for most mortals like me, it is a wonderful situation. Over the years I have found in pawn shops many decent lenses for under $50 that work great with my DSLR: full auto exposure, full focus confirmation by the camera, full lens stabilization functionality. Since everyone had a Pentax during the 70s, I am also outright given amazing lenses by coworkers clearing out their closets. Strange but true. It's kinda nice.
Nothing is perfect, and using M42 adapters and screwmounts can test one's patience, especially during very cold weather. That's why bayonet mounts were developed. But I've learned to winnow out average lenses of all kinds and try to hang onto special old glass that has unique color, bokeh, contrast renderings. My perspective in photography is mostly art and cool optics is some fun stuff for me.
If I was shooting sports or products or models for a living I would think more in production mode to match different requirements. Knowing what you need is the key to staying solvent with photography.
M

Miguel Delinquento · December 4, 2007

Jay Bird wrote:

[deleted]
As a side note is Image Stabilization a byproduct of our aging baby boom generation’s need to compensate for our less than steady hands or is Image stabilization an inherent anomaly of the digital domain. I do not remember having these issues with 35mm film formats.

I'm just not qualified to discuss serious details of in-lens IS vs. body-based IS. It's the results and costs that I'm more interested in.

I believe IS came out of the motion picture industry as a way to provide less jumpiness while providing intimate tracking shots of moving people and objects.
It did move to 35mm film during the late 80s and 90s as Canon and then Nikon and Leica developed wonderful lens-based technology that is still pretty much used today. Minolta pioneered in-body IS several years ago, Pentax and Olympus followed just a year or so ago.

Us aging boomers are the beneficiaries of the technology and I'm sure it will improve big time as long as we got the bucks to spend. Look at IS binoculars for bird watching sports.
M

claudermilk · December 4, 2007

Did I say either method did not work? No. You read far enough to get you panties in a wad, then stopped. I stand behind my sentiment: it gives them the marketing point of being able to say "ALL OUR LENSES ARE NOW AUTOMATICALLY IMAGE STABILIZED" as a competitive differentiation versus Canon or Nikon. Obviously the implication that in-body is better--and the big two contend that in-lens is better to the point that Canon has released a sizable white paper to back that up. Sure, in-body IS works; better than in-lens? Only optical engineers are really answer that. As I mentioned in my original post, in-body makes all lenses stabilized, where in-lens each lens equipped so has it optimized for that specific lens. Pick which you feel is best. Please read the whole post before throwing rocks.

Jay has a good point regarding looking back to the film days before all these fancy bells & whistles--we all seemed to do just fine without it. And, to be honest, while I have used IS lenses I don't own any or feel any burning need to go get one--I do just fine without still.

Dogdots · December 4, 2007

Jay Bird wrote:

Dogdots/Mary,

First as a dog person let me say that I love your username and I’m sure there is a great story behind it…

I did not really give the Sony consideration in my review process so I appreciate your giving me a heads up on it, and I will give it a look. I had not considered Sony because of their dedication to the memory stick but I see the A100 uses compact flash for memory.

Thanks,
Drake

Ha....the name does have a story---and a clean one to

Take a look at Sony and the Rebel side by side. At first I was sold on the Sony till I did some research. My friend bought it for the IS in the camera and then he could buy cheaper lenses. I waited till I could see some of his photos before I made my decision which I made quick....no offensive to those who use a Sony

as I know the quality of the photo depends on the person who is running the camera.

I did go with the Rebel XTI not knowing a thing about how expensive the lenses were till I went to buy some. Ouch! it does hurt the pocket somewhat. But I have been so happy with my lenses and camera. I would have loved to have had a 5D, but I just couldn't spend that much money at that time on something I wasn't sure I want to get so deep into.

Pick your camera.....use it awhile and while your using your camera and getting use to it you can be thinking and saving for the next lens. I have a special savings just for camera stuff...and there is sooooo much of it

I actually bought my camera for taking pictures of my dogs. Then bought the 70-300 since I didn't want to have to be in their face to take their photo. My next purchase which was my best purchase is the 24-105L. I really love this lens as it takes awesome photos if I get the settings
right

Check this site out: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sidebyside.asp it may help you some.

Good luck....let us know what you decide.

Dogdots/Mary

Jay Bird · December 13, 2007

Let me start off by saying thanks for all the replies and feedback, it was helpful in making my way towards a decision.
Thank you...

Now for the purchase decision update.

I ordered a Pentax K10D 18-55 kit yesterday and it will be here tomorrow.
The price difference between the K100D Super and the K10D got to the point where it was a better choice to go with the faster and more feature rich K10D and at $624 after the Pentax mail-in rebate I don't think there is a better deal for the money in DSLR's right now.

I know I am not following down the road of the most popular brands by choosing Pentax but for my purely amateur needs and no current other brand investments in glass I think the K10D is a camera that I can grow into over the next few years.

Now to start relearning the old and new camera basics since I won't have any of those scene modes to use as a crutch anymore.
It also looks like we may still have some ice storm left over to provide some nice photo opportunities for the new camera.

Again thanks for all the feedback and I look forward to learning so much more through the folks here at Dgrin.

Miguel Delinquento · December 13, 2007

Congrats
Hey, congratulations and welcome to the cult.
I'm enjoying my K10D more than I expected and had enough money left over to overindulge on professional lenses.
Here is a very recent shot I posted on the Whipping Post.

M

Noob new camera purchase questions in jump from P&S to DSLR

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