High Ceilings and Flash

BruinCub · December 17, 2007

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone has ever shot photographs in the Great Hall at Long Beach's Aquarium of the Pacific? I heard it has really high ceilings and low lighting. I wouldn't be able to ceiling bounce, is that right?

I'm doing my first wedding (for a friend) there with another photographer and need a bit of advice on how to light effectively. I have an XTi with Canon 580EXII and f/2.8 lenses. I probably would rent a couple more to throw more light into the background.

As a side question, given a flash's guide number, is there a simple way to determine if you can effectively ceiling bounce?

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Icebear · December 17, 2007

I think I've heard this before
Sir Thomas Lipton (I think) when asked about the cost of yachting, said "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." Rephrase that like this, "if you think it's too high, it is."

If your subject is 20 feet away, and you have a 20 foot ceiling, your light path is 58 feet. That's asking a lot of a speedlight, whatever the guide number. If your ceiling is 30 ft, the lightpath is 72 feet for the same 20 foot subject. I'v probably screwed up the math, but I'm close.

SloYerRoll · December 17, 2007

Not to mention the light that gets absorbed into the surface of the ceiling.

The Gary Fong lighsphere produces amazing results and is relatively inexpensive. I've used one for a fewe weddings and had fantastic results.

http://store.garyfonginc.com/liiido.html

ziggy53 · December 17, 2007

I am not crazy about using bounce flash when the ceilings are above 12 feet tall or so. The light spread is just too great to be effective for most subjects. I have shot a large group that way, but had to use a pretty high ISO.

This was with a Canon dRebel XT w/Sigma 18-50mm, at f2.8, 1/200th sec. Sigma 500 Super flash, bounced from high and angled ceiling, with a small white sheet of paper as a reflector, rubber-banded to provide some fill and catchlight. ISO 800.

The ambient light (FL) measured f2.8 at 1/40th at ISO 800, so was not a major contributor.

I was "recruited" to be the photographer and I was somewhat under-prepared.

More typically I like to use a "scoop" type of reflector:

My scoop is similar to:

http://www.fototime.com/inv/908195739C4C0D3

BruinCub · December 17, 2007

SloYerRoll wrote:

Not to mention the light that gets absorbed into the surface of the ceiling.

The Gary Fong lighsphere produces amazing results and is relatively inexpensive. I've used one for a fewe weddings and had fantastic results.

http://store.garyfonginc.com/liiido.html

Yeah. I've seen shots using the lightsphere and they look great. The other photog who's helping me just got the whale tail so I'll probably use his lightsphere.

SloYerRoll · December 17, 2007

BruinCub wrote:

Yeah. I've seen shots using the lightsphere and they look great. The other photog who's helping me just got the whale tail so I'll probably use his lightsphere.

Yea I've seen that whale tail. I get ridiculous looks when I use the lightsphere. (not that I care AT ALL!) But that whale tail is a whole new level of attention getting!

rwells · December 17, 2007

I've been shooting basketball games in some gyms with a light colored ceiling, and I've bounced the 580EX off the ceiling with great results. That's a 40' ceiling, and I can easily shoot cross-court with plenty of light.

YMMV, but my experience says - light colored ceiling - no problem

LiquidAir · December 17, 2007

You'd be surprised at what you can get away with using a 580EX if you are willing to bump the ISO. The 580 has a guide number of 58 at ISO 100 (and 105mm). That becomes a guide number of 464 at ISO 800.

When working in spaces with high ceilings you want to bounce the flash off the ceiling behind the camera rather than straight overhead. I put the ST-E2 on the camera, zoom my 580 out to 105mm and place it on the floor with the IR sensor up and bent in half so it points at the ceiling 10-15 feet behind where I'll be shooting from. When bouncing I usually shoot at f/2.8 or f/4 with the ISO in the 400-1600 range depending on the circumstances.

rwells · December 17, 2007

LiquidAir wrote:

You'd be surprised at what you can get away with using a 580EX if you are willing to bump the ISO. The 580 has a guide number of 58 at ISO 100 (and 105mm). That becomes a guide number of 464 at ISO 800.

Remember: GN 58 meters = 191 feet @ ISO 100 (LA knows this - others might not)

It's a powerful flash

SloYerRoll · December 17, 2007

What power setting are you using for the 580 to get those results??

LiquidAir · December 17, 2007

rwells wrote:

Remember: GN 58 meters = 191 feet @ ISO 100 (LA knows this - others might not)

It's a powerful flash

The GN of 58m is only for direct flash at 105mm zoom. If I remember right, zoomed out to 24mm the GN drops to 19m. When using one, it is worth making sure that you don't have it set wider that you need.

SloYerRoll · December 18, 2007

So assuming the 580 is at max output. I don't see this being a viable option when shooting a wedding. This isn't a sporting event that you have time to let the strobes cycle. Every shot is a potential one time shot. In sporting events, yes, you may have a single "game shot". But you can get repeatable results throughout the course of the game. (I don't know this because I shoot sports. But I did play lacrosse for 11 years and collegiately)

I wouldn't want to be the photog that missed that perfect shot since I was waiting for strobes to reach power. If you had your strobes set to 1/4 or lower power so your strobe could fire on demand if you see that perfect shot. Cool. But using strobes at max power when every time you turn around there may be a perfect wedding shot doesn't make sense to me.

Is there a way to get the 580's to fire when they aren't up to power so you at least have a chance at salvaging a shot?

jfriend · December 18, 2007

BruinCub wrote:

As a side question, given a flash's guide number, is there a simple way to determine if you can effectively ceiling bounce?

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

To answer your specific question about calculating using the flash's guide number, you just need to know two things: the distance from flash to subject along the light path and the reflectivity of the ceiling.

Once you discount your flash power by the reflectivity of the ceiling, you can then use the normal guide number equation to calculate the f-number at full power:

f-number = adjusted guide number / distance along the light path from flash to subject. The distance along the light path is technically the two legs of a triangle formed by the light path going up to the ceiling and then down to your subject. For relatively shot distances to the subject and a high ceiling, you can approximate it as 2x the ceiling height. It's actually increased from that some because of the diagonal that the light must travel, but reduced some because both your subject and flash are closer to the ceiling than the total floor to ceiling height. In most cases as long as your subject isn't far away, you can just approximate the distance as 2x the ceiling height.

Since there's probably no way to know the reflectivity of the ceiling without going there and doing some measurements, your best bet is to probably visit the facility and take some test shots. The test shots will be easier, more foolproof and more conclusive than the calculation anyway. Of course, if you can already tell that the ceiling is high enough that even with a very high reflectivity (e.g. 100%), you wouldn't have enough flash power, then you don't even need to look any further.

rwells · December 18, 2007

SloYerRoll wrote:

We've gone down this road before, and I don't want to loose site of the OP's question. But...

So assuming the 580 is at max output.

< If the 580 is set to ETTL, that assumption may be very wrong.>

I don't see this being a viable option when shooting a wedding.

< OK, I won't make you shoot with one - The OP asked if he could bounce a flash from a high ceiling successfully - the answer, given variables, is yes, as my picture proves >

This isn't a sporting event that you have time to let the strobes cycle.

< You don't "have time" in sporting events, you just have to live with what the equipment will do >

Every shot is a potential one time shot.

< To a contestant, every shot is a potential one time shot. How many times will Sally make a 3 point shot, on the JV team? A player may bust up his/her knee, ending their sporting career >

In sporting events, yes, you may have a single "game shot". But you can get repeatable results throughout the course of the game.

< You can't get but one of any particular event/moment - come on! >

(I don't know this because I shoot sports. But I did play lacrosse for 11 years and collegiately)
<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/headscratch.gif" border="0" alt="" >

I wouldn't want to be the photog that missed that perfect shot since I was waiting for strobes to reach power.

< Me either, but that's not what the OP asked - I also wouldn't want to be the photog that messed up the whole shoot due to not wanting to use a flash to bounce light from the ceiling if that would work, or over/under exposing that "perfect shot" due to my 1/4 power flash setting being incorrect for the perfect moment/distance.>

If you had your strobes set to 1/4 or lower power so your strobe could fire on demand if you see that perfect shot. Cool. But using strobes at max power when every time you turn around there may be a perfect wedding shot doesn't make sense to me.

< I think your using tunnel vision in your thinking here or you just don't have that much experience with the 580EX, I don't know. If your bouncing the ceiling, your also bouncing off the walls, the floor, the table cloths, etc... I'd set it for ETTL. Most likely it won't be using full power. It could be, but the particulars would determine that.

That big gym I posted pics from with a 40' ceiling that I was bouncing off of, my 580EX wasn't firing full power, you can tell by the "whine" of charging the capacitor if a full power shot was made.

As LiquidAir stated, if you boost the ISO from 100 to ???, well... now were really talkin' flash power.>

Is there a way to get the 580's to fire when they aren't up to power so you at least have a chance at salvaging a shot?

< Thats standard fare for the 580EX. While the capacitor is charging to max, the light goes to green, which is a partial power mode, so that you can "save" a shot before the capacitor fully charges. When fully charged the light is red.>

LiquidAir · December 18, 2007

SloYerRoll wrote:

So assuming the 580 is at max output. I don't see this being a viable option when shooting a wedding. This isn't a sporting event that you have time to let the strobes cycle. Every shot is a potential one time shot. In sporting events, yes, you may have a single "game shot". But you can get repeatable results throughout the course of the game. (I don't know this because I shoot sports. But I did play lacrosse for 11 years and collegiately)

I wouldn't want to be the photog that missed that perfect shot since I was waiting for strobes to reach power. If you had your strobes set to 1/4 or lower power so your strobe could fire on demand if you see that perfect shot. Cool. But using strobes at max power when every time you turn around there may be a perfect wedding shot doesn't make sense to me.

Is there a way to get the 580's to fire when they aren't up to power so you at least have a chance at salvaging a shot?

On the 580EX II, Custom Function 6 will allow a partial charge fire between 1/6 and 1/2 power. Personally, I put a Quantum battery on my main light cutting the full power recharge time in half so partial firing isn't much of an issue for me. The key thing to remember is that I usually shoot candids at f/2.8 (or wider--I like primes) and ISO 800+, so even with some pretty extreme bouncing the 580 often isn't working that hard.

I also bring a couple stands and umbrellas to any situation where I am uncertain about bouncing. Once you get used to it, shooting with a couple fixed location strobes and the A-B control on the ST-E2 can be very effective. If all else fails I'll put the flash on a bracket and use a scoop-type reflector similar to the one ziggy mentioned.

jeffreaux2 · December 18, 2007

rwells wrote:

I've been shooting basketball games in some gyms with a light colored ceiling, and I've bounced the 580EX off the ceiling with great results. That's a 40' ceiling, and I can easily shoot cross-court with plenty of light.

YMMV, but my experience says - light colored ceiling - no problem

I totally AGREE!!!

Been ther .....done that.

Icebear · December 18, 2007

Well, yeah . . .
. . . if your camera don't suck at ISO 1600

Time for a D300 honey! The D200 just moved to back-up position.

LiquidAir · December 18, 2007

Icebear wrote:

. . . if your camera don't suck at ISO 1600

Time for a D300 honey! The D200 just moved to back-up position.

You know it. ISO 1600 makes your gimpy little shoe-mount flash look like a studio strobe. A full power pop from a 580EX is likely around 60WS, but ISO 1600 it looks like almost 1000WS.

SloYerRoll · December 18, 2007

Icebear wrote:

. . . if your camera don't suck at ISO 1600

Time for a D300 honey! The D200 just moved to back-up position.

Let me know when you upgrade to the 300. I'll be first in line to buy your 200!

pathfinder · December 18, 2007

The Canon 580ex or the 550ex, can both use the Canon auxiliary battery pack ( CP-E4 ) which holds 8 AA batteries. With this, recharging the capacitor is almost instantaneous, unless you dump the whole charge into the flash head.

I find it really shortens the recharging cycle enough that I rarely want to shoot without it if I am covering a mission critical situation. (I think I own the older CP-E3.)

Icebear · December 18, 2007

Not gonna happen

SloYerRoll wrote:

Let me know when you upgrade to the 300. I'll be first in line to buy your 200!

Nah, I'll keep the D200 as back-up. Wanna buy a nice D70? Don't really need a third stringer

SloYerRoll · December 19, 2007

Got one of those.
I like the D50 more than my D70 though. So I shoot w/ that as my primary.

High Ceilings and Flash

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