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What would you do ? ( long post )
Davidoff
Registered Users Posts: 409 Major grins
I know this may not be exactly business, but I thought I'd post it here because it's where the pro's hang out. Long post though! Beware :wink
Anyway, I have been mailing local photographers for a good while, asking for a chance to assist them on shoots, go to anything as a second shooter, drag around gear bags, whatever, I just wanted to be on the field.
Eventually, I contacted a guy with a shop, he did mostly weddings, an area I had never imagined doing, but that's where he needed some help, so that's what I agreed to do. Also, he and the people who work there with him have invited me over, just to hang out and watch them doing stuff on photoshop, like wedding albums, etc, so I asked " anything for me to do ? " they said, sure, go ahead, and I started processing wedding pictures ( raw's ) and after that they told me I could design a wedding album. Ok, now I've gone with him to 2 weddings, an after wedding session, and spent at least 15 hours working on wedding pictures/album for a couple in his studio. I guess I could divide my question in two parts, one part is the in-office work, and the other is the field work.
Office work: I enjoy working with photoshop, processing and retouching photos, but I'm not exactly learning anything there ( altough I'm sure he thinks I am, even though I've helped other employees with pp a few times ) and sometimes it can get boring, because the pictures are not for me to use, so I really need to process them all, even the ones I'd just skip or delete, that's they're workflow, and there are hundreds, if not over 1000 photos for a certain couple, because sometimes there's something like an engagement session, wedding day with usually 2 photographers, and a shoot after the wedding day. I'm 19, and I'm studying in the morning and doing this many after-noons now, if that's important.
Field work ( weddings ): I've gone to 2 so far, had fun and really enjoyed it, I went as a second photographer on the first and as a third on the second. I don't know how it's done in the U.S.A, but he does it like this:
around 8 a.m, groom's house, pictures of the clothes, small details, etc, groom getting dressed, parents helping groom, a few "formals" of the groom with close family that's on the house. Then, bride's house, same thing, including group pictures of however many people are there at the moment. Photos of bride getting in the car, empty church shots, ceremony shots, couple coming out. Reception: every guest takes a picture with the couple, just line them up and shoot, the second wedding had almost 200 people, so this alone took well over 30 minutes with 2 photographers. Then he takes the couple around the garden or something while the other ones get shots of the room, to get some shots of the bride and groom doing the same stuff they did in the session before they married, you know " you kiss him, you kiss her, you run, he runs " . Then, he rushes to the lab and prints proofs of all the pictures he's taken so far, except the ones that the guests aren't interested in, like small details, church shots, etc, which he makes everyone shoot in raw because he tells the lab to print the jpgs from the cards. Meanwhile the guests have lunch, second photographer and camera man stay there, have lunch, capture anything of interest. He comes back hours later with hundreds of proofs, sets them up, and the guests gather around and buy the ones they like, and they buy quite a bit. After this, we get some shots of the guests dancing, the cake, and it's over.
What I don't like here, he is very stubborn, everything has to be this way, I've suggested small changes like, printing proofs on the spot a bit later so people could see or buy shots of them dancing and stuff like that, nothing. I also dislike that the shots he wants and gets are very repetitive, as he uses the same techs and shoots the same things over and over again. I also dislike the fact that he is very proof selling oriented, he wants shots that will sell then and there, and that ticks me off, even though I get it's business, I think there's too much focus on it, and I think that if I get good ceremony or candid shots but no decent " standard " group shots that sell, he would be annoyed. Just an example, while he was shooting the group shots, I was trying to get candids. I got a cool ( imo ) shot of the bride's sister laughing, great pose, spontaneous, she had no idea I had shot her, but in trying to get it in time, I chopped off a bit of her hands. Later, I got a very boring shot with two women looking somewhere, blank expressions. When he reviewed the pictures he said the second one was better, he said it was a picture that would sell because it's a tight shot of the two ladies, and that the other one has too much empty space behind her and her hands are cut, he said no one would buy the former. I strongly disagree, and even if she didn't buy it because of the hands issue, which I doubt, it is a much stronger image for an album or something, there was clear emotion, pleasing subject, rule of thirds. Well, you get the idea. What I also very much dislike is that he makes all photographers use his cards and give them to him at the end of the day, so I can't keep my pictures, not even for personal uses, portfolio, nothing, he says the couple doesn't allow it, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind that much if I kept the shots I took. This is the bad, having him want repetitive yet surely good selling photos over interesting or less common photos that may not sell as well on the spot. The good, it's fun, obviously, but I'm not exactly learning too much from him as I'm learning from experience that I wouldn't get otherwise. Also, they have been very nice to me, making an effort to teach me and make feel welcome around there, unlike 80% of other photographers that don't even reply to e-mails. They're final work is nice, quality prints of course, and they get lots of clients, I just think it can get kind of repetitive. By the way, I got paid 20€ on the second wedding because he said he'd use some of the photos ( not sure if they were proofs or album, I guess they were proofs ), all the while using my own equipment and getting 0 photos to show for it.
They have a massive delay in album deliveries, months and months, actually. I was thinking of finishing the album, and asking them if they want help in a more professional way, as in a part time job. Like I said, I like doing that, but I'm not doing work that they'd be doing if I wasn't there, for free, and learning nothing, that's just free employees for him. On the other hand, that may not go well with him, and just cut me off the whole thing. The weddings, I like doing them, but I don't like the rules he imposes nor not getting pictures, so what would you do ? Keep going, trying to do what he wants while learning from experience, having fun, getting paid ( very litlle ) and most likely not getting shots for yourself or just stop going to both weddings and office and try to get a photographer that has a different style ? Sorry for the long read guys, I kinda had to vent, lol
Anyway, I have been mailing local photographers for a good while, asking for a chance to assist them on shoots, go to anything as a second shooter, drag around gear bags, whatever, I just wanted to be on the field.
Eventually, I contacted a guy with a shop, he did mostly weddings, an area I had never imagined doing, but that's where he needed some help, so that's what I agreed to do. Also, he and the people who work there with him have invited me over, just to hang out and watch them doing stuff on photoshop, like wedding albums, etc, so I asked " anything for me to do ? " they said, sure, go ahead, and I started processing wedding pictures ( raw's ) and after that they told me I could design a wedding album. Ok, now I've gone with him to 2 weddings, an after wedding session, and spent at least 15 hours working on wedding pictures/album for a couple in his studio. I guess I could divide my question in two parts, one part is the in-office work, and the other is the field work.
Office work: I enjoy working with photoshop, processing and retouching photos, but I'm not exactly learning anything there ( altough I'm sure he thinks I am, even though I've helped other employees with pp a few times ) and sometimes it can get boring, because the pictures are not for me to use, so I really need to process them all, even the ones I'd just skip or delete, that's they're workflow, and there are hundreds, if not over 1000 photos for a certain couple, because sometimes there's something like an engagement session, wedding day with usually 2 photographers, and a shoot after the wedding day. I'm 19, and I'm studying in the morning and doing this many after-noons now, if that's important.
Field work ( weddings ): I've gone to 2 so far, had fun and really enjoyed it, I went as a second photographer on the first and as a third on the second. I don't know how it's done in the U.S.A, but he does it like this:
around 8 a.m, groom's house, pictures of the clothes, small details, etc, groom getting dressed, parents helping groom, a few "formals" of the groom with close family that's on the house. Then, bride's house, same thing, including group pictures of however many people are there at the moment. Photos of bride getting in the car, empty church shots, ceremony shots, couple coming out. Reception: every guest takes a picture with the couple, just line them up and shoot, the second wedding had almost 200 people, so this alone took well over 30 minutes with 2 photographers. Then he takes the couple around the garden or something while the other ones get shots of the room, to get some shots of the bride and groom doing the same stuff they did in the session before they married, you know " you kiss him, you kiss her, you run, he runs " . Then, he rushes to the lab and prints proofs of all the pictures he's taken so far, except the ones that the guests aren't interested in, like small details, church shots, etc, which he makes everyone shoot in raw because he tells the lab to print the jpgs from the cards. Meanwhile the guests have lunch, second photographer and camera man stay there, have lunch, capture anything of interest. He comes back hours later with hundreds of proofs, sets them up, and the guests gather around and buy the ones they like, and they buy quite a bit. After this, we get some shots of the guests dancing, the cake, and it's over.
What I don't like here, he is very stubborn, everything has to be this way, I've suggested small changes like, printing proofs on the spot a bit later so people could see or buy shots of them dancing and stuff like that, nothing. I also dislike that the shots he wants and gets are very repetitive, as he uses the same techs and shoots the same things over and over again. I also dislike the fact that he is very proof selling oriented, he wants shots that will sell then and there, and that ticks me off, even though I get it's business, I think there's too much focus on it, and I think that if I get good ceremony or candid shots but no decent " standard " group shots that sell, he would be annoyed. Just an example, while he was shooting the group shots, I was trying to get candids. I got a cool ( imo ) shot of the bride's sister laughing, great pose, spontaneous, she had no idea I had shot her, but in trying to get it in time, I chopped off a bit of her hands. Later, I got a very boring shot with two women looking somewhere, blank expressions. When he reviewed the pictures he said the second one was better, he said it was a picture that would sell because it's a tight shot of the two ladies, and that the other one has too much empty space behind her and her hands are cut, he said no one would buy the former. I strongly disagree, and even if she didn't buy it because of the hands issue, which I doubt, it is a much stronger image for an album or something, there was clear emotion, pleasing subject, rule of thirds. Well, you get the idea. What I also very much dislike is that he makes all photographers use his cards and give them to him at the end of the day, so I can't keep my pictures, not even for personal uses, portfolio, nothing, he says the couple doesn't allow it, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind that much if I kept the shots I took. This is the bad, having him want repetitive yet surely good selling photos over interesting or less common photos that may not sell as well on the spot. The good, it's fun, obviously, but I'm not exactly learning too much from him as I'm learning from experience that I wouldn't get otherwise. Also, they have been very nice to me, making an effort to teach me and make feel welcome around there, unlike 80% of other photographers that don't even reply to e-mails. They're final work is nice, quality prints of course, and they get lots of clients, I just think it can get kind of repetitive. By the way, I got paid 20€ on the second wedding because he said he'd use some of the photos ( not sure if they were proofs or album, I guess they were proofs ), all the while using my own equipment and getting 0 photos to show for it.
They have a massive delay in album deliveries, months and months, actually. I was thinking of finishing the album, and asking them if they want help in a more professional way, as in a part time job. Like I said, I like doing that, but I'm not doing work that they'd be doing if I wasn't there, for free, and learning nothing, that's just free employees for him. On the other hand, that may not go well with him, and just cut me off the whole thing. The weddings, I like doing them, but I don't like the rules he imposes nor not getting pictures, so what would you do ? Keep going, trying to do what he wants while learning from experience, having fun, getting paid ( very litlle ) and most likely not getting shots for yourself or just stop going to both weddings and office and try to get a photographer that has a different style ? Sorry for the long read guys, I kinda had to vent, lol
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After the first two weddings they said they would like me to continue to work with them when I was available. We re-negotiated an hourly rate but the same scenario. I have not been able to learn any post process but that is due to my regular career and busy schedule.
My advice:
Ask to have a meeting
Let them know you are very happy working with them but you would like to see a few arrangements change.
Let them know you want your raw images to work in your own style for practice and portfolio- ensure them that you will not try to sell any images of their clients
Let them know you would like to show them your style and get their feedback
Let them know you are interested in helping them with their work flow and creating albulms for a certain fee per hour
Ask them their thoughts
They may be open to it or you may decide it is no longer a good fit for you. That is part of your growth as a student- photographer- and a person. Sometimes you just have to move on.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
Not getting my pictures really is bugging me, and I've seen him do it with the other photographer that helped on the second wedding, even though I believe they've worked toghether for years. Also, I don't think that's his problem, even if I wanted I couldn't sell the images because I don't have anyone's contact, the proofs are sold on the same day, and the bride and groom get dvd's with all the pictures in them anyway, so how could I sell them ? I think the problem is that the shots are his responsability and if they were to show up somewhere, he'd be screwed. He never agreed to pay me anything because I showed up just happy to learn you know, but I'm not really learning ( well, from experience I am, sure ). Either way, he's always telling me how he wants things to be done so I can assist him better in future weddings, for example, when he thinks I'm ready he's planning on dropping me off on the groom's house and going to the bride himself, leaving me alone to get the groom shots, so I think he trusts me and knows I'm capable. Then, he'd pay me a bit more, for sure.
I really agree with your last sentence, even though it would be a shame to just walk off, there really need to be some adjustments.
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I just looked through both of your sites.
Judging you on the work you have up- you should be getting paid- and they should not argue that. You said you are 19?? If that is the case- you were born to be a photographer.
It may be a shame to walk away but if you are not happy with the arrangement you owe it to yourself to do what is right for you.
If you are in school I am sure you can find plenty of men and women to model for you and allow you to be as creative as you can be. That may not pay at first but as people see it and talk about it it can lead to family portraits- kid portraits- and weddings on your own. You can also talk to your school about shooting events the school puts on.
Also- I have not heard of any wedding photographer in the US following the process of printing and selling while the wedding is still going on.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
Now, please don't read this as a me being a jerk...I don't intend that to be the case. I am just trying to get you to think and consider what your motivations are/were and what you are seeking.
It seems to me that you were seeking to learn how to be a pro photographer, how to shoot photos and perhaps how to make a living at photography. Remember, you are the one without the experience, they are the ones making the living. So I don't see how you can possibly be angry that they are not listening to you: you are not the one with experience earning a living at photography.
You don't agree with their approach, yet THEY are the one's earning a living. You don't like the shots or the well practiced photographic "choreography", yet you have never been responsible for shooting a wedding. Being free to take photos with the safety net of being the 'third' photographers is DRAMATICALLY different than being the main photographer, responsible for all the photos. Finally, you seem to be getting upset that they don't use your photos, or ideas...why should they?
Ages ago, when the master/apprentice system was more the norm, you, the apprentice would get all the crap jobs, in the hope that you would learn the trade and someday take over the business. It would take years.
My advice: take advantage of the opportunity you have: learn, don't judge, listen, don't instruct, and absorb everything. Later, when you have experience, then you may decide what you want to do different, when it is your livelyhood on the line. Not sure why you are worried about getting "photos for yourself"? Shouldn't you be doing that on your time?
I think the folks you are learning from are showing you how to make a living at wedding photography. They know the shots that sell prints, vs those that get good complements on photo websites. They know where to be, when to be before, during and after a wedding. They know to not throw away any photo, since often the client picks photos you think are terrible. A buck is a buck. Learn from this, as it will help shape what you want to do when you have the experience: perhaps you learn weddings aren't your thing, and this is a valuable thing to know.
Take advantage of what you have, and reconsider what you are expecting, as my guess is that a few photos and someone to transform their workflow based on a few ideas from the 'new guy' isn't really what you need or want from this.
If you want to emphasize a PJ style wedding with more candids, it really has to be your business and your customers, not his. That way, when you sell the contract, you can set their expectations up front so they are not dissapointed with the results.
First, it sounds as if the photographer has been doing this for a while and has found what works for him and brings him a good income. He probably is resistence to change for 2 reasons, people tend to be creatures of habit, and he is in charge and he wants things done his way. He has that right and like was said above, he may be booking weddings because of the way he does things and the posed shots he gets. That is probably what the client wants. Since you didn't meet with them and sell them, then you don't know what their expectations are for the day.
I did work for a wedding photographer for a while and absorbed much. I respected what and how he did what he did, but also made mental notes of what I would do differently, etc. I saw his strengths and weaknesses. It is all valuable knowledge if you want to do weddings in the future.
I know book more weddings than him and for a much higher dollar amount. But it took time to develop into that and learn things on the way.
Unfortunately most shots don't even get commented by him, only when he says the guests wouldn't like to buy them because of some mistake.
I'm almost sure everyone I know knows I'm a photographer. So far I've only had the chance to shoot a colleague of mine who has a band.
I never read about that on forums either, but here it's standard, everyone does that ( selling during the wedding ) so they can get a bit more money on the side I guess.
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So, when your "boss" is saying that the client won't buy this photo or that photo, it's because he has already characterized the tastes of his clients - by the very fact that they have contracted with him after viewing his work, they are self-selecting.
As for getting copies of the photos you made - it sounds to me as though you entered into the informal agreement to learn his trade. In exchange, he gets the value of the photos you make. If you want to change that arrangement, you need to talk to the "Boss" and not to his son; it's with the boss that you made the agreement (or so it seems to me). Take the bull by the horns and be a little assertive. One of two things will come of that (1) you get some or all of the changes you want, or (2) he tosses you to the curb and calls you an ungrateful cur (and, having been in the business in that market for years, he probably has the connections/power to make your near-term life as a photographer very difficult - if that's his nature).
Either of these two out-comes is better, IMO, than the situation you have now. If you get the changes you want, you will be happier (at least over the short term) than you are now. If he tosses you to the curb, you are now forced into a position of competing with him, but with a style of your own.
Taking all above into account, I think the best thing (long-term) for you to do is to thank the boss for the time you've been with him and for the knowledge he has imparted and that you value his friendship, blah, blah, blah .... but that you feel you need to extend yourself and go out on your own - to express your creativity in your own way, blah, blah, blah... And then DO IT.
Make a go of building a client base if you are into doing portraits, or start doing weddings (you'll probably have to start slow and cheap, but it'll build over time), or move into more creative outlets. It's hard work and very hard to get started, but you may enjoy fine art, landscape, maybe even photo-journalism. Find your niche, study to be the best you can be in that niche and go for it.
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When I first started shooting motocross photography I was getting photographs that were artistic and very well received by the photographers community. But guess what? Fellow photographers were not my potential customers, riders were. And the riders found my shots too artistic. Its not what they wanted.
Lesson number one in business for you: doesn't matter if you like your photographs or not, or whether photography forums like your photographs or not. They aren't your customers. Learn what your customers want and deliver that to them. It would appear that the guy you are working for already knows this, and quite possibly you don't.
Stick around these people and learn the business end of things.
A former sports shooter
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Scott, maybe I didn't explain myself very well, what I'm talking about are snapshots of the guests either alone or with the bride and groom, the couple doesn't care if these sell or not, they have already paid for all the pictures that they take, not only that, these guest shots very rarely go on the final album, so the couple doesn't pick him for the guest shots he takes. Here, everyone takes this pictures, they're like a staple, not even used to decide on a photographer. He does get to use the photos I take for proofs on the day or for the album later, of course, but why not burn me a dvd with the pictures as well ? Thank you Scott, good advice as well.
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My Photos
Thoughts on photographing a wedding, How to post a picture, AF Microadjustments?, Light Scoop
Equipment List - Check my profile
Ok, don't know why, but you're getting the idea that I think I'm better than him or something, when that's clearly not the case, I just made some suggestions, he ignored them, not my problem and not my business. I think I'll stick around, if not for the photo part, the business part.
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This is not any different than a factory worker building cars: the cars he built are not his cars.
That is debatable..
If he is not gettting paid than he is not really an employee
Since he is not really being contracted to shoot it presents an interesting problem.
Have no experience with an internship
You are just going to have to present your view of the situation and ask for the changes you want. There have been some very good points made but--- In the end- it is up to you.
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
Well, my opinion, and it is just opinion, is that whether he paid or not, he is working for the photo business.
Now if he just happened to show up at the wedding and start taking photos, then they are his photos. But he is there associated with the photographer. He is not there as an independant photographer. Perhpas because he is using his camera, he has an arguement...I just think that from the way he has described his "employer', that there is no way he will get any photos....
I also think even if you don't realize it, this job is more valuble than you think, just being around an experienced photographer to see what he does is priceless. Especially so if you see ways that the business is lacking or could grow. It is up to you to pick up where he lacks, to build your own ideas, so YOUR business one day will be even more successful than his. You grew up with the internet, MTV, Facebook and MySpace, while Alot of us here remember rotary phones, and computers when they first came out, And Film cameras, I might add, so the technology of today will suit you more than it suits him.
There is a huge amount to learn in business and Wedding photography. I say soak it all in until a better opportunity comes along.
But thats just my $.02
All the best
Chris
www.longislandimage.com
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It was really easy for them to say they wanted to buy something, but when it came time to put their money where there mouth was they were not willing any longer.
In other words, don't immediately dismiss his dismissing of your new ideas as him being an idiot.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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I agree that the photo business owns the rights as far as being sold for profit.
Just speaking from personal experience - I have worked with professional wedding photographers on several occasions. I recived my images to do my own post process for practice and portfolio usage and the wedding company worked the images as well for the client. If the client did not want any of the images used for portfolio I was given strict guidelines on what I could or could not do.
I do not think it is wrong for Davidoff to ask for his images under a similar agreement.
Again- just my opinion
Aaron Newman
Website:www.CapturingLightandEmotion.com
Facebook: Capturing Light and Emotion
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WWW.LONGISLANDIMAGE.COM
Chris, absolutely, even though I'm complaining about some stuff, I'm ejoying the experience.
Bill, I do get what you're saying, but I'm not the only one saying this, some of his other employees say the same stuff, he just ignores it and gives you no reason for not wanting to get a projector, for example, to sell pictures after printing the proofs. I don't think he's an idiot for not getting it, I just think he could think twice and not just shrug
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What I learned at the first FEW places I worked was MY knowledge was of NO use THEY DID NOT WANT MY IDEAS THEY JUST WANTED ME TO SHOOT THEIR PRINTED LISTS AND RETURN THE FILM......I also found out that a lot of photogs show work they never even took, as was the case of the lady I worked for for 2 yrs....all that work she showed was from a studio that had heard about me and called to see if I was available to shoot the studio owners 2nd marriage (actually video it and I do not do video....but he offered me enuff and told me he would give me a crash course in the use of his camera....okay here we go)...I also got to shoot some stills...he then doubled what I had been getting and let me have leway in creatively shooting weddings for him....in his studio I saw photos I had seen at the Lady's studio and questioned him about it....he pulled out a sample album and showed me her wedding , her sisters wedding and a cousins wedding all of which hung on her walls as her work (all but her own wedding)...he wasn't concerned and hea had learned that I had taught her how to use her Hassy and meter so he wanted to pick me up so I could not teach her anything else......I spent almost 4yrs with him until he sold out.....
I kept note books of what I liked and did not like about each place I worked so I would know how not to ot how to do my business.....
Your current boss is doing his work in a proven manner for him and has many happy clients...I am sure even in Portugal that word of mouth could kill a business as fast as it can here......Learn from the man...there was a trime when an apprentice would be publicly flogged for talking down about his "MASTER".......He has knowledge that you can use and he knows it but you have not PROVEN YOURSELF WORTHY IN HIS EYES.....as a student you prob need to kiss a little a** to get him to impart his wisdom freely.....
I too tried contacting every established photographer here where I live and was given the same story...take you on as an apprentice, give you the knowledge I have......FOR WHAT???....so you can start your own studio and take my cleints by chargiung less money..........every studio gave me the same story dang near verbatim.....that was when I started "GHOSTING" the ceremonies......so from my stand point you are lucky to have found someone to impart his knowledge even if he is ROUGH and does not easily impart his wisdom...prove yourself to him in his way and he will freely give his knowledge...for a price..............your hard work
Thanks so much Art, outstanding advice !
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One other thought regarding Bill's comment. I'd even go so far as to ask why he's not selling something in order to learn the reasoning. He probably has a good one, but it may not make sense without explanation. But that's just me.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/