Beginner who needs help and advice

liamS · May 29, 2008

> Hi all,
>
> Thought id try my luck and ask you a few questions as Im in the
> process of setting up my Studio...but as Im a complete novice to the
> photography world help and advice is desperatly needed!
>
> The kind of products ill need my studio tailored for our on this
> website - www.displaysense.co.uk
> What my aim is to create a studio that will enable me to take a great
> base image that I can them work my magic on in photoshop(bit of a wiz
> on that programme) but currently I have to work with a compact camera,
> work site lights(that are to harsh and glare yellow tones everywhere)
> I recently purchased some white photography paper which helped but i
> still get lots of mixed tones which then results in a lot of photoshop
> time.
>
> What equipment would you recommend for me?
>
> A DSLR?
> Lights?
> Soft Boxes?
> Reflectors?
>
> Any help will be great
>
> Regards
>
> Liam

gus · May 29, 2008

Liam welcome to d/grin but whats with all the >>>>> ?

I actually banned you & deleted your post until i realised you were not spamming the forum. I have restored everything but your style resembles that of a typical spammer wanting website traffic.

liamS · May 29, 2008

gus wrote:

Liam welcome to d/grin but whats with all the >>>>> ?

I actually banned you & deleted your post until i realised you were not spamming the forum. I have restored everything but your style resembles that of a typical spammer wanting website traffic.

Sorry, but the >>>>> are there because i copied my post from an email I sent to DigitalGrins help desks...Hotmail always does this when you forward or copy sent messages.

Apolygies again tho!

ziggy53 · May 29, 2008

Liam,

It would seem you wish to do "product photography". Am I correct?

claudermilk · May 29, 2008

It appears so from looking at the link. I'd say swap the work lights for proper photography lighting. Doesn't have to be expensive stuff, AlienBees--or possibly easier in the UK, Paterson Interfit.

cmason · May 29, 2008

Well before you go the gear route, one thing to try is to reflect or otherwise modify the light from your work lights. You can use a large piece of foamcore or other white board, and aim the light at it, with the board pointed to your subject. Or purchase a piece of opaque fabric, and put the light behind it. This will reduce the shadows.

Make sure your lights are the same temperature. You may have two different kinds of lights (halogen and tungsten for example). You can purchase daylight corrected flourescent bulbs which many photograpers use.

http://www.amazon.com/Pack-Watts-5500K-corrected-Fluorescent/dp/B000K1MIZO

Also, try shooting a white balance grey card, and use this as your reference for white balance within Photoshop to correct the color.

liamS · May 29, 2008

Yeah your right there - Product/Industrial Photography is where my work is based within.

Ive tried to bounce light from here there and everywhere and never have any luck. My main problems are the temperature of the lights and controlling the direction of the light.

Also I becoming increasingly aware that I need to convince my managers that we should really invest in a DSLR, but being a beginner my recomendations arent great - any help would be great!

While im online would you guys be able to recommend any tips for photographing clear acrylic products? - with a white background though.

Thanks guys

LiamS

darkdragon · May 29, 2008

liamS wrote:

While im online would you guys be able to recommend any tips for photographing clear acrylic products? - with a white background though.

This might help http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=68491

ziggy53 · May 29, 2008

liamS wrote:

Yeah your right there - Product/Industrial Photography is where my work is based within.

Ive tried to bounce light from here there and everywhere and never have any luck. My main problems are the temperature of the lights and controlling the direction of the light.

Also I becoming increasingly aware that I need to convince my managers that we should really invest in a DSLR, but being a beginner my recomendations arent great - any help would be great!

While im online would you guys be able to recommend any tips for photographing clear acrylic products? - with a white background though.

Thanks guys

LiamS

Wow, clear acrylic on white is tough.

As far as cameras, either a dSLR or an advanced digicam may be used, depending on the versatility needed.

Usually I used acrylic as a method of holding product when I didn't want the acrylic to show, as in this example:

(BTW, this was shot using my Minolta A2 digicam as a test. The actual shot used for my employer was taken with a Sony F828 digicam. I just wanted to see how my Minolta compared to the Sony. Let's just say I was pleased with the results.

)

The technique for clear acrylic on white would be the same as clear glass on white. It's kind of the opposite of a black object on a black background.

In the case of a clear object on a white background you need to light and flag to accentuate the edges and surfaces. Tenting the object is usually extremely valuable. Each object that is unique will require its own lighting strategy.

Look at some Google examples for inspiration:

http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&q=glass&btnG=Search+Images

Here is a pretty good site for information:

http://www.tabletopstudio.com/documents/glass_photography.htm

Art Scott · May 29, 2008

Product photography....from the link provided you are specializing in SMALL product photogrpahy......upto but not much bigger than say a 60 inch television.....if that is waht you aiming for I would suggest

A large light tent made out of 1 inch PVC pipe.....male the panels so that they are tall enuuf and wide enuff you can walk into it.....the front to be made with 2 small panels with a small opening to shoot thru
Table can be made of most any thing ....I use a Couple of plastic saw horses with a thick piece of white plexiglass or I even use a white back drop coming from the top of the back panel across the white plexi...this gives me a seamless look......Damn...forgot to cover the pvc panels I went to used clothing store and bought a bunch of kingsized FLAT white muslin sheets..works perfectly.....

Lighting...You could use your worklights and just swap the lamps for daylight PHOTO lamps from you local camera store this will make your work area hotter as these lights are continously on....or you could opt to buy some strobes....with the above styled light tent you can get by with 2 strobes but I would highly recommend having 4....that way you can light all 4 sides of your light tent....also witha light tent you have no need for softboxes.....my tent is approx 6 feet square and 8 feet tall...so I move a front panel and walk in to change set ups and alll soooo much easier than these tiny tents you pay $50 to a couple of hundred for.....also withthis type of tent you should not need any reflectors...you lighting should be very even and soft.

yes I would recommend a DSLR...doesn't have to anyting fancy....I wouldsuggest someting that is not the lowest end consumer camera but a midrange so that your not wanting or needing to upgrade in just a couple of months.......

liamS · May 30, 2008

Building my own lighting tent would be great idea thanks - plus like you mentioned I wouldnt have to pay out silly amounts of money for a tent big enough for my camera alone.

So what would be your guys opinions on the Nikon D40 with the lens kit? it seems to be getting great reviews over here in the UK.

I mean what would I need from a camera - something with improved settings in comparison to my compact camera(limited scene options), better optical zoom and a bigger, better more powerful lense?
I wouldnt say mega pixils was important as the images will only ever be seen online and rarely in print - unless anyoe can prove otherwise that would be great

.

thanks again!

ziggy53 · May 30, 2008

liamS wrote:

Building my own lighting tent would be great idea thanks - plus like you mentioned I wouldnt have to pay out silly amounts of money for a tent big enough for my camera alone.

So what would be your guys opinions on the Nikon D40 with the lens kit? it seems to be getting great reviews over here in the UK.

I mean what would I need from a camera - something with improved settings in comparison to my compact camera(limited scene options), better optical zoom and a bigger, better more powerful lense?
I wouldnt say mega pixils was important as the images will only ever be seen online and rarely in print - unless anyoe can prove otherwise that would be great .

thanks again!

Megapixels is a poor determinant of ultimate quality.

Start with lighting. A significant part of your budget should be spent on lighting that is appropriate for the project and the objects you intend to shoot. Studio strobes are invaluable for consistent output and modeling lights do help in positioning for both highlights and shadow placement. Plan on 4 lights for a start.

I was fortunate to be able to shoot in a "white room" where the walls were usable as reflectors. If you only have limited space or relatively low ceilings (8 foot ceilings for instance) making a white room will allow you to bounce the light, in effect condensing the needed space.

While what Art recommended will work, I do like a smaller light tent because that allowed me to position the lights a bit farther away for more even distribution of the light. Additionally, the closer the light tent is to the subject, the more efficient the diffusion. In the end it is a trade-off in convenience, the larger tents are easier to work in, versus space efficiency, the smaller tents will work better when you work in a smaller studio space.

A product table is another valuable component in a product studio. A product table allows you to effectively suspend the object above the background, eliminating shadows and making background removal easier in post. You can also position reflectors and/or lights for "under" lighting which is useful for transparent objects.

A digicam can be superior to a dSLR in that the digicam can provide more DOF at a given aperture versus a dSLR. If you use a dSLR, you must chose very high quality optics and use fairly small apertures anyway. Smaller apertures mean that you need either stronger lights or multiple exposures. Stronger lights are more expensive, adding to the total cost, and multiple exposures (potentially) affect productivity. I often needed f8 on the Sony F828 digicam that I used, but I would have needed f16 with a dSLR so 4 times the light.

(The Sony F828 was/is a crop 3.67x sensor and the zoom on the lens was marked at 35mm equivalence. Comparing to a crop 1.6x dSLR (Nikon crop 1.5x would be obviously similar), setting the F828 zoom to 100mm marking (about 28mm actual) and f8 would be about the same FOV and DOF as a Canon XSi with a 60mm lens at f16.)

A digicam can also be used to control ambient light. You can only sync a dSLR and studio lights up to its rated flash sync, usually 1/200th to 1/250th. With many digicams you can sync to much shorter durations. I regularly used 1/800th for scenes outside of the studio where I had to deal with ambient light. Beyond 1/800th the shutter was too short to effectively use for studio flash (which tends to be longer duration than hot-shoe flashes). If your studio does not have good control over ambient light, this might be a consideration.

In modern digicams, the Fujifilm FinePix S100FS might be a contender with a fairly large sensor, similar to the Sony F828, full manual operation, a decent ISO 100 and ISO 200, a nice mechanical zoom with fairly good "macro" function, both hot-shoe and PC connector for flash, enhanced dynamic range to capture subtle tonality, swiveling LCD to capture those odd angled shots, live view that can be sent to a TV/monitor for large preview (extremely important for product work).

Negatives include:

Poor bundled software, you still need PS and ACR.
Non-mechanical manual focus.
Relatively (compared to dSLR) poor high-ISO performance.
JPGs are not great at default settings, RAW can be much better.
RAW files process at 22 MPix due to diagonal pixel configuration. Makes for really big files (but they process into nice images.)

The Nikon D40 is a nice entry level dSLR but it does not have the "live view" capability of some of the newer cameras that I (and you) would really appreciate for product work.

(Live view on a larger display is amazingly productive in that you notice things that you can easily miss things in the viewfinder and positioning the objects and lights is just sooo much easier. Without live view you tend to put the subject within arms reach of the camera and you position lights by guess and then take a test shot. With live view, you are freed from the camera but you still get to see what it sees on the external monitor. It is tremendously freeing and productive and efficient.)

Lights and lenses will be ultimately more important than camera (except for the live view which I cannot stress enough.)

claudermilk · May 30, 2008

Art Scott wrote:

Product photography....from the link provided you are specializing in SMALL product photogrpahy......upto but not much bigger than say a 60 inch television.....if that is waht you aiming for I would suggest

A large light tent made out of 1 inch PVC pipe.....male the panels so that they are tall enuuf and wide enuff you can walk into it.....the front to be made with 2 small panels with a small opening to shoot thru
Table can be made of most any thing ....I use a Couple of plastic saw horses with a thick piece of white plexiglass or I even use a white back drop coming from the top of the back panel across the white plexi...this gives me a seamless look......Damn...forgot to cover the pvc panels I went to used clothing store and bought a bunch of kingsized FLAT white muslin sheets..works perfectly.....

Lighting...You could use your worklights and just swap the lamps for daylight PHOTO lamps from you local camera store this will make your work area hotter as these lights are continously on....or you could opt to buy some strobes....with the above styled light tent you can get by with 2 strobes but I would highly recommend having 4....that way you can light all 4 sides of your light tent....also witha light tent you have no need for softboxes.....my tent is approx 6 feet square and 8 feet tall...so I move a front panel and walk in to change set ups and alll soooo much easier than these tiny tents you pay $50 to a couple of hundred for.....also withthis type of tent you should not need any reflectors...you lighting should be very even and soft.

yes I would recommend a DSLR...doesn't have to anyting fancy....I wouldsuggest someting that is not the lowest end consumer camera but a midrange so that your not wanting or needing to upgrade in just a couple of months.......

Yebbut....I totally agree.

With a midrange DSLR you should be able to set custom WB, which will allow neutralizing the worklight color. Or, the better, pricier option, is again proper strobes; the advantage there is any digicam should work fine as the lights are already color balanced properly.

Another thought with the DSLR option. You should be able to get some really nice prime lenses that are less expensive than zooms & higher ultimate image quality. I'm thinking this way since in a studio environemnt it should be fairly easy to select the appropriate focal length & foot zoom the last little bit.

ziggy53 · May 30, 2008

claudermilk wrote:

...

Another thought with the DSLR option. You should be able to get some really nice prime lenses that are less expensive than zooms & higher ultimate image quality. I'm thinking this way since in a studio environemnt it should be fairly easy to select the appropriate focal length & foot zoom the last little bit.

High-quality zooms are nice when you have multiple objects of different size that you need to shoot keeping the same angular relationship.

Primes require a more complicated and time-consuming change in tripod height to keep the same basic view. Plus the perspective changes with distance to subject so now smaller objects will have a different perspective projection than larger objects. This is called "linear perspective" and changes with both focal length and distance to subject.

If you want to keep the same linear perspective a zoom lens is a much more convenient and time saving measure. For lower resolution applications, cropping is another valuable tool.

Art Scott · May 30, 2008

After getting the intial setu p and shooting for a few paying clients I would suggest a tilt and shift lens for your work as this gives almost the feel of using a view camera....allowing at least some perspective control more quickly at the camera.....it is just some thing to think about......

liamS · June 3, 2008

Hi all, Thanks for all your help and guidance so far, I feel that my knowledge is vastly improving day by day.

Any way just a quick note and as per usual any advice would be great.

Ive been to a few Camera suppliers now and they have all recommended the Nikon D40 package - http://www.jessops.com/Store/s47076/0/Digital-SLRs/Nikon/D40-Black-%2b-AF-S-DX-18-55mm-Lens/details.aspx?&IsSearch=y&pageindex=1&CatId=481&ManIds=1159,1250,1462,1467,1474,1478,1527,&MinPrice=200&MaxPrice=400&MultiOpIds=53240,&SortBy=SkuOfferingPriceASC&IsInStockOnly=False&comp=n
What do you all think?

Also regarding the lighting and product tents and tables - Ive recently build a cheap as chips lighting tent and thats working out great with the smaller products.

Can anybody recommend any lighting kits? Im off to see our new premises so I may be able to host some images and dimensions soon so you can all see the conditions.

Thanks again!

LiamS

ziggy53 · June 3, 2008

liamS wrote:

Hi all, Thanks for all your help and guidance so far, I feel that my knowledge is vastly improving day by day.

Any way just a quick note and as per usual any advice would be great.

Ive been to a few Camera suppliers now and they have all recommended the Nikon D40 package -
...
What do you all think?

Also regarding the lighting and product tents and tables - Ive recently build a cheap as chips lighting tent and thats working out great with the smaller products.

Can anybody recommend any lighting kits? Im off to see our new premises so I may be able to host some images and dimensions soon so you can all see the conditions.

Thanks again!

LiamS

Liam,

Take some time and do this simple test:

Set up to shoot a few objects, first with an SLR (it doesn't have to be a dSLR) and then with a digicam/P&S that has "live view" output to a TV.

I guarantee it will only take a few tests to demonstrate the ease and improved productivity of using a camera equipped with the live view.

I shot product for 31 years with everything from a 4" x 5" view camera to a 35mm film camera to a Kodak dSLR (DCS-460, $16,000 camera) and finally using the Sony F828 digicam. There is no way I would ever shoot any other way than using a camera with a live view capability.

You can leave the camera to adjust the product or the lights or the lens and still see a preview of what you will get (using the live view and assuming modeling lights on the flashes.)

The Nikon D40 will take images, pretty good ones in the appropriate circumstances and with good lighting, but it lacks the live view feature.

In the Sony lineup you can get the feature in the D300 and that is the least I would recommend. I believe the D3 also has it.

In Canon it is available in the XSi, 40D and 1D MKIII.

In Olympus it's in the E-510, E-520 and E-3.

(The Canon 40D is what I own and the only one I have checked personally to be able to send the live view image onto a TV/monitor.)

You just have to trust me enough to run some tests to prove it for yourself. (You can thank me later.)

For lights, I am currently using, and I recommend Flashpoint II model 1820. Very powerful, pretty economical, user replaceable bulbs and the power is capable of being attenuated across a fairly wide range with very good repeatability and color.

I used to use Bowens monolights and I do think the Flashpoint lights are comparable. One potential problem is a rather odd attachment system which limits you to Flashpoint accessories and "universal" accessories. You can use a broad number of umbrellas however. The Flashpoint accessories are sufficient and diverse enough for my needs and probably yours as well.

Alien Bees are another value flash and they have an extremely loyal following as do the White Lightning brand by the same manufacturer.

Bowens still make very good lights as well.

ziggy53 · June 3, 2008

BTW, lens choice will be dependent on the objects' sizes and the distance from camera to object. A "kit" lens might be suitable because of the small apertures needed but is otherwise not necessarily what I would recommend.

liamS · June 3, 2008

ziggy53 wrote:

Liam,

Take some time and do this simple test:

Set up to shoot a few objects, first with an SLR (it doesn't have to be a dSLR) and then with a digicam/P&S that has "live view" output to a TV.

I guarantee it will only take a few tests to demonstrate the ease and improved productivity of using a camera equipped with the live view.

I shot product for 31 years with everything from a 4" x 5" view camera to a 35mm film camera to a Kodak dSLR (DCS-460, $16,000 camera) and finally using the Sony F828 digicam. There is no way I would ever shoot any other way than using a camera with a live view capability.

You can leave the camera to adjust the product or the lights or the lens and still see a preview of what you will get (using the live view and assuming modeling lights on the flashes.)

The Nikon D40 will take images, pretty good ones in the appropriate circumstances and with good lighting, but it lacks the live view feature.

In the Sony lineup you can get the feature in the D300 and that is the least I would recommend. I believe the D3 also has it.

In Canon it is available in the XSi, 40D and 1D MKIII.

In Olympus it's in the E-510, E-520 and E-3.

(The Canon 40D is what I own and the only one I have checked personally to be able to send the live view image onto a TV/monitor.)

You just have to trust me enough to run some tests to prove it for yourself. (You can thank me later.)

For lights, I am currently using, and I recommend Flashpoint II model 1820. Very powerful, pretty economical, user replaceable bulbs and the power is capable of being attenuated across a fairly wide range with very good repeatability and color.

I used to use Bowens monolights and I do think the Flashpoint lights are comparable. One potential problem is a rather odd attachment system which limits you to Flashpoint accessories and "universal" accessories. You can use a broad number of umbrellas however. The Flashpoint accessories are sufficient and diverse enough for my needs and probably yours as well.

Alien Bees are another value flash and they have an extremely loyal following as do the White Lightning brand by the same manufacturer.

Bowens still make very good lights as well.

Thanks Ziggy (the fountain of knowledge)

So would i be right in saying Live View is having the ability to hook the camera up to a monitor whilst shooting so that you can see the image on screen whilst you set up?...The D40 has a PAL and NTSC output...is that not the same?

ziggy53 · June 3, 2008

liamS wrote:

Thanks Ziggy (the fountain of knowledge)

So would i be right in saying Live View is having the ability to hook the camera up to a monitor whilst shooting so that you can see the image on screen whilst you set up?...The D40 has a PAL and NTSC output...is that not the same?

I believe the D40 can only display images which have been taken and send them to the video port.

Live View lets you preview the shot as you compose it, in real time (almost). It's like having a full-time helper. In effect, a digital camera with live view and video out is a video camera, but when you capture the image you capture the image with the full quality of the digital camera. Depending on the camera you use and how it is set up, you generally get to see the image just shot on the TV as well.

You can also match the orientation and angles of previous shots by comparing prints or even a computer monitor image of a previous shot with the live view so you can duplicate the "look" of a previous object with great precision.

cmason · June 3, 2008

Live view is how nearly every point and shoot on the market works. This is a new thing to DSLRs, and only a few support it.

liamS · June 5, 2008

Little Update...
Went to view the companies new premises the other day and got shown my new 'studio' space...a dark dark dungeon tucked down at the bottom of the building.

Space wise I have 2.8m x 7m(which is roughly 9ft x 23ft) ceilings arent very high either - only 2.5m (just under 9ft)...What do you guys think of the space?

Ill get some pictures up once we move in.

It has two power outlets and two coloumns on one side of the room fairly close to the wall...also the door is at one end of the room which is handy...

To begin with Ill be ripping the carpet up and paint the walls, ceiling and floor in a washable matt white paint and then hooking my photography paper up at one end. Going to ask for more power outlets too.

Oh I have been in contact with a few photography suppliers and I got a rough quote for a Nikon D40 lens kit with the adaptor lead to link the camera to a computer - allowing me to control my camera through my Pc - Does that sound good?

Lighting wise I still have no solution as Im looking for a starter kit rather than components...

Cheers

LiamS

Beginner who needs help and advice

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