Pricing help

Grumpy_one · June 4, 2008

I'm posting pics of my sons t-ball team and I'm not sure how much to bump price's for a profit. I have 10% increase right now. I wanted to match costco's prices as much as possible, tough to do. Thoughts?

Sam · June 4, 2008

Grumpy_one wrote:

I'm posting pics of my sons t-ball team and I'm not sure how much to bump price's for a profit. I have 10% increase right now. I wanted to match costco's prices as much as possible, tough to do. Thoughts?

Lets see if I got this right. Costco is selling photos of your son, and the other kids on the t-ball team for like $0.19 for a 4X6?

Wow that's cheap. As I see this you have a couple of choices. One, sell them for $0.09 each, and drive Costco out of business. Or you could just sell all your camera gear, and buy all your son's photos from Costco.

Do they do weddings this cheap?

OH!!! Wait, Costco doesn't have ANY photos of anyone!!!

They just print YOUR photo.

The value of your image is the image, not the cost of printing. You create the image, you own the image.

What you charge for a print is up to you, and very subjective, but has very little to do with the printing cost.

Sam

Grumpy_one · June 4, 2008

Sam wrote:

Lets see if I got this right. Costco is selling photos of your son, and the other kids on the t-ball team for like $0.19 for a 4X6?

Wow that's cheap. As I see this you have a couple of choices. One, sell them for $0.09 each, and drive Costco out of business. Or you could just sell all your camera gear, and buy all your son's photos from Costco.

Do they do weddings this cheap?

OH!!! Wait, Costco doesn't have ANY photos of anyone!!!

They just print YOUR photo.

The value of your image is the image, not the cost of printing. You create the image, you own the image.

What you charge for a print is up to you, and very subjective, but has very little to do with the printing cost.

Sam

You're right. But I've never done this, nothing to compare to besides past practice, so I have no idea. I'm just looking for some kind of guide line. Thanks for your input. But I'm still looking for some kind of baseline. I guess I'll start looking at some other sites that offer same kind of product. Cheers

Sam · June 4, 2008

Grumpy_one wrote:

You're right. But I've never done this, nothing to compare to besides past practice, so I have no idea. I'm just looking for some kind of guide line. Thanks for your input. But I'm still looking for some kind of baseline. I guess I'll start looking at some other sites that offer same kind of product. Cheers

OK I was a little harsh, but the idea is you need to set your own pricing.

Try posting some of your best images, and lets see how they compare to other sports / event photographers.

Go on line and look for sports photographers in your area, and see what their pricing looks like. Are your images equal to, better than, or worse?

Try and price your images based on their quality. If say your images aren't top notch, but your learning, and having fun, just post them, and don't sell.

The real problem comes if you start selling at $0.19 ea, and then out of the blue (at least to the viewer) you want $5.00, or $10.00 each. Then they think your ripping them off.

I have seen event / sports type photos 8X10 sell for between $10.00 and $70.00 each.

I would think, just my opinion, at the T-ball level you might want to be at the lower end, especially if your just getting started.

Sam

Grumpy_one · June 4, 2008

Sam wrote:

Try posting some of your best images, and lets see how they compare to other sports / event photographers.
Sam

I did...not much of a response though click here

Sam wrote:

I would think, just my opinion, at the T-ball level you might want to be at the lower end, especially if your just getting started.

That's why I was considering Costco prices, but you have a good point, they dont have photo's of the kids....sooooo, I off to figure out a good price for a budding photog. I mentioned the web site to the coach, he countered with "put'em on a cd and give them out, we've done that in the past". No way I'm putting these on a cd and give them out, unless they want to pay for my lens!! But, it is tball. Cheers

Grumpy_one · June 7, 2008

Bump
ARG!!! This pricing thing is tough for a first timer. Anyone have suggestions how to put a worth on this stuff? I've tried 100% mark up from default, but when it comes to bigger priced items its seems to overprice them. So I'm going through each item to price but having a difficult time. This is for the T-Ball gallery on my site if you care to visit. I've gone to other sites and it seems to jump around quite a bit. Thanks

Angelo · June 9, 2008

I don't think your prices are too high but I also don't see too many pictures, other than a few of your son, that creatively isolate individual players to make those shots irresistable to other parents.

Grumpy_one · June 9, 2008

Angelo wrote:

I don't think your prices are too high but I also don't see too many pictures, other than a few of your son, that creatively isolate individual players to make those shots irresistable to other parents.

There's about 150 photo's of the t-ball team, the soccer and basketball are just place holders for now.

Angelo · June 10, 2008

Angelo wrote:

I don't think your prices are too high but I also don't see too many pictures, other than a few of your son, that creatively isolate individual players to make those shots irresistable to other parents.

darkdragon · June 10, 2008

I'd say $3 for 4x6 and go from there.

Also, I know there are more pricing threads in this same forum - but I am horrible at search terms

Just trying to help

achambers · June 10, 2008

For my event galleries I use the long side of the image as the price. Makes it easy to quote a price off the top of your head.

darkdragon · June 10, 2008

achambers wrote:

For my event galleries I use the long side of the image as the price. Makes it easy to quote a price off the top of your head.

That is a great idea!

achambers · June 11, 2008

Actually for 5x7's I only charge $5 but I give a conspiritorial look and tell them "I'm knocking off $2 today."

nobody · June 17, 2008

I have only priced and sold very few myself, but what I see as a reasonable approach for individual action shots is first determine what is your maximum markup on any product. Set the digital original at that price (say $20). Understand you will only ever sell one of it. Next, take say 50% or 75% of that markup and apply it to the largest prints. For small things, like 4 x 6, you can make the markup fairly small, even as low as 10% of the digital file because very few people ever order just one copy of a 4 x 6 due to the $3 shipping cost.

I don't like % markups because they distort things and don't reflect the value of the work you have done, especially if someone orders things that are very cheap (4 x 6) or very expensive.

For group photos, that approach kind of breaks down because you have to assume that if you sell one digital original, it will be circulated among all members of the group. For them, you would need a higher price for the digital file.

zack75144 · June 17, 2008

Of the 150 plus photos I've sold so far this baseball season, 80% are 4x6.
You cannot lowball this print size hoping to make more on the larger prints.

I charge $6.25 on lustre.

bkatz · June 17, 2008

First - I feel your pain - I went through this last year.

Originally posted by Sam
The real problem comes if you start selling at $0.19 ea, and then out of the blue (at least to the viewer) you want $5.00, or $10.00 each. Then they think your ripping them off.

I had a hard time pricing and went from $3 to $5 to $7 for 4 x6 which is really about right for Northern NJ. On the other hand - my daughter's team which I started doing for free - can't stand that I now charge a $1 for 4x6 and so on for larger. Some on the team are okay with it while others hate it and one even tells me they are taking my watermark off.....got to love parents.

I spent time looking at what other photographers were charging and had my epiphany when I did a tournament and saw what one of the other tournament photographers was charging. I raised my price to be comparable and not a single complaint from the teams that bought but compliments on the photos.

That's why I was considering Costco prices, but you have a good point, they dont have photo's of the kids....sooooo, I off to figure out a good price for a budding photog. I mentioned the web site to the coach, he countered with "put'em on a cd and give them out, we've done that in the past". No way I'm putting these on a cd and give them out, unless they want to pay for my lens!! But, it is tball.

You obviously put a value on your photos so why aren't you charging what you think they are worth. Most photographers in my area do not do action shots of t-ball and the parents go gaga when they see them - if they are true action shots you can charge market value. What do they charge for the team/individual pictures that your league provides. Figure out those prices and start from there. My guess is when you do that you will find that they are $3 - $6 for a 3 x 5/ 4 x 6 and you know you probably bought them (my wife gets the basic package every year

)

Anyway - jmho

nobody · June 18, 2008

Zack:

Might I ask what is your price on the full-size download? I am new at this, but that info is useful, and quite frankly, surprising. My initial assumption was that people want the downloads and big prints and if they get 4 x 6, they would most likely get multiple copies. That's part of the reason I decided on such a low price for small prints.

I have seen some pros that charge something like $10 for a 4 x 6 and $15 for an 8 x 10. That's almost the exact some dollar amount markup on each one. To each his own, but I just did not think that made sense. Few people will buy the 4 x 6 at those prices when you can buy the 8 x 10 for $5 more. The photographer makes about the same either way. I think the solution is packages, which hopefully will be available at smugmug before too long. If I were pricing a package of two identical prints, I would set the markup at 1.5 times the markup of a single print. For more than two, it would get a little more complicated.

Ethan

bkatz · June 18, 2008

Ethan -

The majority of pictures I sell are 4 x 6. I know some photographers who don't sell that size and start with the 5x7 at the $10 price. My suggestion would be that if most photographers sell 4x6 at $10 and you are uncomfortable you look around the $7 range. I found that going from $3 to $7 decreased my sales by 10% to 15% in some segments but I actually made more money.

I can also say that as my pictures have improved with time I have less trouble selling more and the percentage is going back up. It also depends on the sport and whether the team ever gets photographed. If you are it chance are you can charge more.

You need to look at your market segment - I shot a game last week where a parent was there with their DSLR and told me that he gave the parents the photos on CD. I have already had one sale on that team and expect another. He actually became a salesman for me because he missed the goal by one girl on their team who hasn't scored all season and I have her shot and the reaction. Her parents are ecstatic and will also be buying because he specifically went and told them how good the shot was. Then I have other games where I no longer take pictures because there are two parents who already take pictures and give them out. I do one game a year for that team now and still sell - but I limit my time there.

Final thought - how much is your time worth. You spend an hour at the game taking pictures - then you go home and work on them for awhile (10 minutes - 3 hours depending on your workflow or more) and you bought the equipment. What's your time worth?

:soapbox (Sorry last paragraph was me getting started)

nobody · June 18, 2008

bkatz:

The way I see it, there are two issues to address with pricing: (1) your maximum markup on any product, either the full-size digital file or largest print and (2) Relative pricing -- everything else as a percentage of that maximum markup. Like anyone else, my goal is to choose a pricing scheme that maximizes gross profits.

gross profit = (markup per sale) x (number of sales)

If you think in terms of economics, there is a sort of Laffer curve effect with photo prices. If I sell digital files for $1, lots of people may buy them, but I won't make much money because I've only made $0.85 on each one. If I sell them for $1000, very few people or nobody will buy and I'll still make little or no money.

Somewhere in that $1 - $1000 range is a single value that will result in maximum possible gross profit. I would like to find it. I am convinced that for amatuer sporting events in most parts of the USA, its somewhere in the $10 - $60 range on digital files, assuming everything else is scaled down properly. I have seen pros, like Bright Star Photo selling for $50, but they no longer do many races (triathlons, duathlons, running, etc.) here in the east Tenn. area, probably because they weren't selling enough to justify it. Now, they're done by fotojack, which gets about $28 on a digital file.

If you can go from $3 to $7 on a print price, and only sell 15% fewer prints, then you have clearly made a move in the right direction, since you will have almost doubled your gross profits. If you increase your markup by 10% and your number of items sold decreases by 10%, then you are at or near the peak of the curve. If you increase your price to $10 and your sales decrease by 50% of what they were at $7, then you have overshot the peak. Of course, the underlying problem with all this theory is that conditions are never the same at any two events, so in some respects, it is a crap shoot.

As far as the question of relative pricing goes, I certainly made the initial error of underestimating demand for small prints, but I still plan to find some kind of a general percentage scheme and stick with it. For example:

small prints / products -- 20 to 30% of the maximum markup
products and medium prints -- 40 to 50% of the maximum markup
large prints -- 75% of the maximum markup
full size digital file -- 100% of the maximum markup

Please let me know if you think I'm off-base with any of these percentages. They are somewhat in line with what brightstar charges ($13 for 4 x 6 and $50 for digital). I will have to figure out the maximum markup myself through trial and error.

Ethan

zack75144 · June 18, 2008

nobody wrote:

Zack:

Might I ask what is your price on the full-size download?

Ethan

For my sports photos I charge $10 for the small version and $15 for the original. I know this is lower than mentioned by others, but I figure that the guy who buys the 4x6 is going to scan the print so he can have a digital version, he'll probably then email it to his family and friends. Is this crappy scanned image the version of my photo that I want his buddies to see? Why not offer a quality jpeg for a fair price, and maybe generate a little additional business from his buddies after seeing a quality image.

nobody · June 18, 2008

Zack,

Thanks for the info. If I were your client, I would be very much inclined to buy the digital file, since with shipping of one 4 x 6, I'm close to $10. For a mere $5 more, I can get the full size file and get it now, so it looks cheap by comparison. I am surprised you don't sell more files. The problem occurs when you have someone who wants say, two or three 4 x 6. They will probably buy the digital file and have it printed elsewhere.

I have not encountered that situation yet, but I suppose if I had someone who wanted a bunch of prints of the same thing, I woud tell them just to buy the full size digital file, let me know, and I will temporarily eliminate the markups on prints (of that one pictures only) so they can print all they want of it. This may, on the surface, seem like a dumb thing to do, but if they have the digital file, they can take it anywhere they want and get all the prints they want. And if it is an individual action shot, no one else is going to buy it anyway, so why not let the customer get the best print possible. I personally like smugmugs prints better than walmart's or flickr's.

As I've said before, the one thing I would like to see is some method to sell packages on smugmug, or else some kind of option for a multi-print discounting scheme. That would soundly address the issue of what happens when somebody wants a bunch of wallets or 4 x 6. The one thing I've noticed about the pro sites like brightstar is that they are sort of like pizza places -- they don't want you to get out without spending some minimum amount of money, usually around $12 or $15. Their package of two 4 x 6 is only about $2 more than getting only one. I suppose that makes sense, because in the first one, the photographer has already been paid enough to make it worthwhile. With the scanning issue, it makes sense there too because they get the same ability to scan no matter how many they get.

Grumpy_one · June 19, 2008

bkatz wrote:

Ethan -

Final thought - how much is your time worth. You spend an hour at the game taking pictures - then you go home and work on them for awhile (10 minutes - 3 hours depending on your workflow or more) and you bought the equipment. What's your time worth?

:soapbox (Sorry last paragraph was me getting started)

That goes without saying. These parents have no idea the work behind the photo. I ended up giving the parents a nice 4x6 each of their son/daughter in a plastic standup frame (about 17.00 total) with my calling card on the back. I saved the best pictures of their kids for online. Haven't sold any yet. This is a trial/error for sure. Thanks for the input, cheers.

Pricing help

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