Color Management Help Needed

Sam · March 27, 2005

I was not pleased with the color matching between by monitor, and printer, so I dove off the high board into the deep end of the pool. (This is English for the Ausse, " I stole the pig and stabed the camel")

I just picked up a Monaco EZ Color and OPTIX xr. Oh yes, and a new Canon i9900 printer. I have spent way too much of the day trying get this right, and to understand the various instructions.

No problem calibrating the monitor, and scanner. (Well ok a couple, but they have been resolved) I have created 2 different print profiles for 2 different papers. Now for the life of me I can't figure out how to use the damn profiles!

PhotoShop CS has a diolog box that lets you select seperate source space and print space profiles. The new profiles I created are not currently available in the drop down menues. (I am sure I could move them there, but do I want to?)

I have selected Adobe 1998 in both boxes.

If you access the printer through control panel. I can manually choose a print driver, including the new ones I created.

The bad news. I have printed the same photo with the standard printer auto selected default print driver and the custom profile, and the results are the same. No difference!

The good news is they match my monitor!

I would really like to know whats going on here.

Thanks for any input you have.

ps: The i9900 is fantastic!

:

Sam

tmlphoto · March 27, 2005

Sam, I feel your pain. I don't have any answers, but your post was starting to collect a little dust. This is a difficult area that I have read some about, but don't feel like I can get my head around yet. Good luck in your quest. I'll be interested to read any advice that you get. Pathfinder seems to have some of this kind of stuff down pat. I would shoot him a PM if you don't get an answer soon.

Andy · March 28, 2005

tmlphoto wrote:

Sam, I feel your pain. I don't have any answers, but your post was starting to collect a little dust. This is a difficult area that I have read some about, but don't feel like I can get my head around yet. Good luck in your quest. I'll be interested to read any advice that you get. Pathfinder seems to have some of this kind of stuff down pat. I would shoot him a PM if you don't get an answer soon.

i've put out the call for a color expert. standy by, sam....

rutt · March 28, 2005

A really good place for answers to this kind of question is the yahoogroup, colortheory. Answers can be very technical, but you'll always get to the bottom if you can stand to get to the bottom.

Baldy · March 28, 2005

Hi Sam,

You're a brave man! What do the Aussies say? Good onya?

Since I haven't profiled a scanner like you have and don't use an attached printer, I feel like a poser because everything I say would be theory (assign the scanner profile to the image, specify the printer profile to CS for printing) not tested in the fire of producing great prints daily.

Dunno if you've seen them, but Ian Lyons writes some seriously clear tutorials:

Photoshop CS and colour management
Photoshop managing color while printing

I hope this helps!

Sorry about your camel,
Baldy

pathfinder · March 28, 2005

Sam wrote:

I was not pleased with the color matching between by monitor, and printer, so I dove off the high board into the deep end of the pool. (This is English for the Ausse, " I stole the pig and stabed the camel")
I just picked up a Monaco EZ Color and OPTIX xr. Oh yes, and a new Canon i9900 printer. I have spent way too much of the day trying get this right, and to understand the various instructions.
No problem calibrating the monitor, and scanner. (Well ok a couple, but they have been resolved) I have created 2 different print profiles for 2 different papers. Now for the life of me I can't figure out how to use the damn profiles!

PhotoShop CS has a diolog box that lets you select seperate source space and print space profiles. The new profiles I created are not currently available in the drop down menues. (I am sure I could move them there, but do I want to?)

Yes, you definitely want to see and check the box for your profile of the paper you are printing on in the Output color space in the Adobe drop down box. When you get to the driver dialogue box for the printer you should again chose the profile for your paper and check the box that says "No driver color correction" of something to that affect. Since you have taken control pof the color balance in Photoshop you DO NOT want the printer driver to make any changes - hence "NO COLOR CORRECTION" by the printer driver.

I have selected Adobe 1998 in both boxes.

The output box shoudl be checked for the paper and profile you are going to print on. This is straight from Epson and also true for other printer manufacturers as well. TML and I have already gone through this discussion when he installed his Canon printer.

If you access the printer through control panel. I can manually choose a print driver, including the new ones I created.

Yes you can but it really makes no difference because you do not want the printer driver to do any color correction - you've already done that in PS CS!!

The bad news. I have printed the same photo with the standard printer auto selected default print driver and the custom profile, and the results are the same. No difference!

The good news is they match my monitor!

The have all been printed into the ADOBE color space when you checked that 2nd box named output in the Adobe print dialogue box.

I would really like to know whats going on here.

Thanks for any input you have.

ps: The i9900 is fantastic! :

Sam

Sam............
Here is are the settings I use when I am going to print on Premium Lustre paper

Here are my color space settings I have saved in PS

And here are the settings in the printer driver dialogue to assure no color correction by it

Your box for your printer dialogue will be different since it is a Canon and mine is a Ford ( Epson:D), but you will have a similar choice somehwere in your printer driver dialogue.

Let me know if this helps, Sam. This is what I use for my Epson 2200, 4000 and 960.:):

Sam · March 28, 2005

pathfinder wrote:

Yes, you definitely want to see and check the box for your profile of the paper you are printing on in the Output color space in the Adobe drop down box.

OK, I can now see the new paper profiles in the drop down menue for the "Output color space" in CS.

When you get to the driver dialogue box for the printer you should again chose the profile for your paper

To access the driver dialog box I need to go through Windows. No problem, just seems like it should be available through the normal print dialog box.

and check the box that says "No driver color correction" of something to that affect.

There dosn't seem to be any boxes or choices like that, but there is a box called "ICM" (image color management) under the manual option. ( I am not clear what happens under the auto mode) the explanation is it will use the Widows default settings to color manage a photo if checked. It has never been checked, but then again I have been using the auto setting.

Since you have taken control pof the color balance in Photoshop you DO NOT want the printer driver to make any changes - hence "NO COLOR CORRECTION" by the printer driver.

I understand the concept. Now searching for the correct boxes and key strokes.

The output box shoudl be checked for the paper and profile you are going to print on. This is straight from Epson and also true for other printer manufacturers as well. TML and I have already gone through this discussion when he installed his Canon printer.

OK, can do.

Yes you can but it really makes no difference because you do not want the printer driver to do any color correction - you've already done that in PS CS!!

I have just printed out 2 versions of the same photo. The 1st with the custom paper profile in CS output selected, and the same profile selected in the print driver diolog box. Also I selected a paper type (glossy) from the printer diolog box. ICM off.

The 2nd with the custom paper profile in CS output selected, but in the printer I selected a different driver and plain paper with ICM off.

They both came out different. The first was the better of the two. Hence, choices made in the printer menue does continue to effect the printed output.

The have all been printed into the ADOBE color space when you checked that 2nd box named output in the Adobe print dialogue box.

Sam............
Here is are the settings I use when I am going to print on Premium Lustre paper

Here are my color space settings I have saved in PS

And here are the settings in the printer driver dialogue to assure no color correction by it

Your box for your printer dialogue will be different since it is a Canon and mine is a Ford ( Epson:D), but you will have a similar choice somehwere in your printer driver dialogue.

I have been using perceptual. Is there an advantave in using "Relitive Colorimetric"? What the hay....I'll give it a try.

Let me know if this helps, Sam. This is what I use for my Epson 2200, 4000 and 960.:):

Yes your explanation helped. While I still don't have it dialed, I REALLY appreciate the time you took with your answer.

Between your post and my manuals I have spent about two hours tonight on this. I will continue with my efforts. THe conceptual part is seems straight forward, it's how to impliment it all that's the problem.

Thanks,

Sam

pathfinder · March 28, 2005

Sam wrote:

Yes your explanation helped. While I still don't have it dialed, I REALLY appreciate the time you took with your answer.

Between your post and my manuals I have spent about two hours tonight on this. I will continue with my efforts. THe conceptual part is seems straight forward, it's how to impliment it all that's the problem.

Thanks,

Sam

Thankd Sam.. I think the confusing thing is the way the printer drivers are set up. It is obvious to me that the drivers are written as if most printing is to be done from a word processor or a web page where the printer makes all the color decisions. That is why the printer driver asks about paper type et all, even printers like the Epson 4000 or the Canon i9900 which obviously are destined to users who are going to be printing fine art color images from a color corrected space like Photoshop, not web pages or WORD docs. Drives me just crazy.

It took me a while to realize that choosing the paper type in the printer dialogue boxes realy only matters as to paper surface and thickness. The Profiles are really chosen in the Adobe dialogue box, because we are going to tell the printer "No color correction!!""

There is a thread about just this on the Luminus Landscape, but I learned these settings from Greg Gorham or Jacki Reznecki in the Adobe Online Print Academy.

I also use a RIP - ImagePrint 6 to drive my Epson 4000 for B&W images and the same technique applies there as well, but ImagePrint has a much bigger choice of profiles - each for paper type and color viewing light type - daylight, tungsten, cool flourescent.

Sam · March 29, 2005

pathfinder wrote:

Thankd Sam.. I think the confusing thing is the way the printer drivers are set up. It is obvious to me that the drivers are written as if most printing is to be done from a word processor or a web page where the printer makes all the color decisions. That is why the printer driver asks about paper type et all, even printers like the Epson 4000 or the Canon i9900 which obviously are destined to users who are going to be printing fine art color images from a color corrected space like Photoshop, not web pages or WORD docs. Drives me just crazy.

It took me a while to realize that choosing the paper type in the printer dialogue boxes realy only matters as to paper surface and thickness. The Profiles are really chosen in the Adobe dialogue box, because we are going to tell the printer "No color correction!!""

There is a thread about just this on the Luminus Landscape, but I learned these settings from Greg Gorham or Jacki Reznecki in the Adobe Online Print Academy.

I also use a RIP - ImagePrint 6 to drive my Epson 4000 for B&W images and the same technique applies there as well, but ImagePrint has a much bigger choice of profiles - each for paper type and color viewing light type - daylight, tungsten, cool flourescent.

OK I am frustrated! I have had it for tonight! I am chewing paper and ink like Andy's paying for it.

The best results seem to be when I choose Adobe in the source, and output boxes in CS, If I try to use the new profiles in CS I am getting some type of double color correction. Prints are darker and more (over ) saturated.

Even with the printer set to manual, no color correction, (I think), Or naybe I can't turn the printer drivers off. Don't know at this point.

Thanks I'll keep at if I can afford more ink.

Sam

Again conceptually it makes sense, but I can't figure out how to make it happen.

Shay Stephens · March 29, 2005

As I am want to say, welcome to the hell that is color management where nothing works as advertised.

Sam wrote:

OK I am frustrated! I have had it for tonight! I am chewing paper and ink like Andy's paying for it.

Hahahahahaha

patch29 · March 29, 2005

Sam wrote:

Again conceptually it makes sense, but I can't figure out how to make it happen.

Are you on a mac or PC?

pathfinder · March 29, 2005

Sam wrote:

OK I am frustrated! I have had it for tonight! I am chewing paper and ink like Andy's paying for it.

The best results seem to be when I choose Adobe in the source, and output boxes in CS, If I try to use the new profiles in CS I am getting some type of double color correction. Prints are darker and more (over ) saturated.

Even with the printer set to manual, no color correction, (I think), Or naybe I can't turn the printer drivers off. Don't know at this point.

Thanks I'll keep at if I can afford more ink.

Sam

Again conceptually it makes sense, but I can't figure out how to make it happen.

One other thing that can happen to discolor images - particularly with pigment inks like Ultrachrome, is that the nozzles on the print head get clogged, pluggede up, and all of a sudden your pictures go wacko - It took me a while to realize I had the driver and printer software correct, but that the print still had no yellow or something eg: The printer was NOT printing what I was sending it because fo a clogged printer color nozzle. Not sure how often this can happen with a Canon printer which I think is a dye-based system, but worth keeping in mind.

Sounds like you have an idea about how it is supposed to work. Keep at it - when it happens and the images flow off your screen and look just like your monitor it really is a great day in digital image making. I love printing now, but it took a while to whip everything into shape for me too.

pathfinder · March 29, 2005

patch29 wrote:

Are you on a mac or PC?

Patch, I run an Epson 2200 on a WIN XP box with PS CS, and a 4000 on a G5 OS X via PS CS. The printer drivers and PS dialogue boxes are very similar and the same concept of 'no printer color management' is the same on both.

patch29 · March 29, 2005

pathfinder wrote:

Patch, I run an Epson 2200 on a WIN XP box with PS CS, and a 4000 on a G5 OS X via PS CS. The printer drivers and PS dialogue boxes are very similar and the same concept of 'no printer color management' is the same on both.

I still set the paper and printer quality settings via the OSX printer window, after the print with preview as you have shown. I guess you do the same, in a similar location, on a PC?

Sam · March 29, 2005

pathfinder wrote:

One other thing that can happen to discolor images - particularly with pigment inks like Ultrachrome, is that the nozzles on the print head get clogged, pluggede up, and all of a sudden your pictures go wacko - It took me a while to realize I had the driver and printer software correct, but that the print still had no yellow or something eg: The printer was NOT printing what I was sending it because fo a clogged printer color nozzle. Not sure how often this can happen with a Canon printer which I think is a dye-based system, but worth keeping in mind.

Sounds like you have an idea about how it is supposed to work. Keep at it - when it happens and the images flow off your screen and look just like your monitor it really is a great day in digital image making. I love printing now, but it took a while to whip everything into shape for me too.

The printer is new so no issues with that. I can get very good prints now. I just have no ability to use or designate any profiles to adjust color!

I have talked to Canon twice. Ether I can't explain it or they don't have any answers. I am not clear about what boxes / windows do what and how. There is a box to select the media type. Is that tied into a color profile when auto is selected in the printer? If not tied in what action selects it? Why can't I use the driver / profiles from PS?

I can not, I repeat NOT turn off or stop the printer from using drivers. If I select anything in PS output other than the source, (Adobe 1998). I will get a double color corection of some sort!

I can add, and then select different profiles as the printer default, but that has to be done through the Windows control panel. I can select different profiles from PS, but I always get a double color correction.

What I may try is removing ALL profiles from the printer defaut box. That way there can not be any color corection from the printer. Not sure it will print this way, and it seems pretty roudabout way to do it. What the heck are other Canon users doing?

Frustrated in California,

Sam

pathfinder · March 29, 2005

Sam wrote:

The printer is new so no issues with that. I can get very good prints now. I just have no ability to use or designate any profiles to adjust color!

I have talked to Canon twice. Ether I can't explain it or they don't have any answers. I am not clear about what boxes / windows do what and how. There is a box to select the media type. Is that tied into a color profile when auto is selected in the printer? If not tied in what action selects it? Why can't I use the driver / profiles from PS?

I can not, I repeat NOT turn off or stop the printer from using drivers. If I select anything in PS output other than the source, (Adobe 1998). I will get a double color corection of some sort!

I can add, and then select different profiles as the printer default, but that has to be done through the Windows control panel. I can select different profiles from PS, but I always get a double color correction.

What I may try is removing ALL profiles from the printer defaut box. That way there can not be any color corection from the printer. Not sure it will print this way, and it seems pretty roudabout way to do it. What the heck are other Canon users doing?

Frustrated in California,

Sam

Sam, I think Andy has the i9900 or a variant thereof. PM him and ask him how he sets his dialogue boxes. Somehow the printer has to be set for "No color correction" because the color management has alreaady been done in PS CS.

I think TML and I went through this with his Canon printer, but he got it sorted out.

Sam · March 29, 2005

pathfinder wrote:

Sam, I think Andy has the i9900 or a variant thereof. PM him and ask him how he sets his dialogue boxes. Somehow the printer has to be set for "No color correction" because the color management has alreaady been done in PS CS.

I think TML and I went through this with his Canon printer, but he got it sorted out.

Again thanks for the response. Who is TML, and where do I go to kidnap him?

Canon says there is no way to turn off / stop the printer from using a profile / driver. There is a thing called ICM (image color managemet) but that has alway been off. It apparently uses some window default sRGB when enabled.

It seems simple to me: turn off the printers ability to independently use a driver / profile. Then it would have to use the one sent from PS, but I can not figure out how to do this and so far Canon says it can't be done. (Oh they also said that the profile from PS would override the printer profile, but that don't work.

Sam

Sam · March 29, 2005

patch29 wrote:

Are you on a mac or PC?

I am on a PC. I don't think that matters too much. The issue seems to be the Canon printer, and it's controls.

Sam

pathfinder · March 29, 2005

Sam wrote:

Again thanks for the response. Who is TML, and where do I go to kidnap him?

Canon says there is no way to turn off / stop the printer from using a profile / driver. There is a thing called ICM (image color managemet) but that has alway been off. It apparently uses some window default sRGB when enabled.

It seems simple to me: turn off the printers ability to independently use a driver / profile. Then it would have to use the one sent from PS, but I can not figure out how to do this and so far Canon says it can't be done. (Oh they also said that the profile from PS would override the printer profile, but that don't work.

Sam

TML http://dgrin.com/member.php?userid=361

Check with him and see if he isn't using a Canon printer. I've slept since that thread and I am not sure if it was him, but i think it was

I just looked up some of the old threads. Andy does own and use an i9900, Give him a PM and ask him how he handles it.

patch29 · March 30, 2005

Sam wrote:

I am on a PC. I don't think that matters too much. The issue seems to be the Canon printer, and it's controls.

Sam

I am on an Epson 2200 too, so no Canon help. If they have it geared for srgb, why not convert your file in PS to srgb and not do any other conversions, if the Canon driver is expecting an srgb profile then they are automatically applying the appropriate printer/paper profile it might work. That is my best idea without seeing what is going on and different than how I work with my Epson printer.

Sam · March 30, 2005

patch29 wrote:

I am on an Epson 2200 too, so no Canon help. If they have it geared for srgb, why not convert your file in PS to srgb and not do any other conversions, if the Canon driver is expecting an srgb profile then they are automatically applying the appropriate printer/paper profile it might work. That is my best idea without seeing what is going on and different than how I work with my Epson printer.

The printer does a pretty good good job right out of the box, but I want better than pretty good! I want the color to match my monitor close enough that I can't see ANY difference, or VERY slight difference.

Also down the road, (later) I might want to experiment with different papers. I can create custom profiles for these different papers. I want to be able to use these profiles.

It seems like you Epson guys can drive / control the printer profiles your printer uses from PS. That's all I want to know how to do.

It seems like a simple question, "Can I control the print driver / profiles used by the printer from PS?"

Yes: "Good, how do I do it?"

No: " Is there a work around?"

Yes: "Good, what is it?"
No: "Should I keep this or get an Epson?"

I will try one more call to Canon and ask these questions, and see if I can get anywhere.

Sam

tmlphoto · April 2, 2005

Sam,
I was looking through my settings trying to see if I could find some solid advice for you. The settings for the i9900 are very confusing. As you have discovered there are profiles under the control panel as well as within PS and also something Canon calls profiles under the printer properties sections of the i9900 printer. I really haven't figured all of this out. :cry I have gotten good results by always using sRGB as my colorspace. I use sRGB as the color management choice under the output screen in PS. I always use print preview. I have gotten good results using this, but I must admit that I don't have a calibrated monitor. My EZprints seem to match my monitor "straight out of the box" so I haven't messed with it. I use EZprints for my serious prints and just use the i9900 for printing out stuff for friends and my kids so I haven't really gotten too deep in the whole color management issue. Hope this helps a little at least. I think using sRGB really simplifies life without losing any quality, although I'm aware that this borders on being a religious topic in some circles.

TOF guy · April 2, 2005

I have a Canon i9900. Color management is simple, but Canon's driver sure was designed to make it as confusing as possible.

In Adobe PS:
- working space: whatever device-independent working space you like to work with, typical & recommanded choices being sRGB, adobeRGB.

If you want to know (but you don't have to): the differences are 1- in the gamut: with the adobeRGB being able to represent more colors than sRGB, and therefore is better from this point of view, and 2- in the sampling of the color space, which gets coarser with larger gamut space (in other words there is a larger color gap between adjacent RGB values with spaces with larger gamut). This is a consequence of 1 actually. sRGB has the edge over adobeRGB, although in practice the difference is negligible, and in any case 16 bit editing takes care of it.

- you should make sure that the input profile is preserved in input. I recommend consistence: set your camera to use adobeRGB if you want to use that color space in Adobe PS, use sRGB if you use your camera in RGB. (Sure you can convert to working space, but that introduces a small error which you don't want).

- color profile for monitor should be the one created with your calibrating/profiling hard/software, in control panel > monitor

- likewise color profile for printer should be the one you've created for the printer.

Now in the Canon driver, as others have said the whole idea is to disable all color management by this driver, as Photoshop's is just better.

Main tab: Media type should be same as the one used during profiling
- print quality should be same as the one used during profiling (and the highest the printer offers)
- Color Adjustement: Manual. Click on set: make sure color balance is "0" for all colors, for black and intensity. Uncheck Enable ICM. Print type = None

Effects tab: Uncheck Vivid Photo, Image Optimizer, Photo Optimizer Pro, Photo Noise Reduction.

That's it !

Well, not quite. If you have inconsistency between what is shown above and what you had during profiling, you may have to redo the printer profiling.

Thierry

Color Management Help Needed

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