wedding in a dark church, no flash, no rehearsal.......ugh

Shudderz · August 15, 2008

OK all.......I am in need of your advice.

I have a wedding coming up on Saturday. It will be my first where flash is NOT allowed. In a Catholic Church. There is NO rehearsal. The Father has simply told them to show up 30 minutes prior to the ceremony. I can't seem to convince them to do ANY pix before the wedding starts (just the gals, just the guys.......) They want to do them all between the ceremony and the reception, at the reception site. They seem to think they can get people in/out of the reception for the photos (and Alcohol will be served in abundance) I told them today that what they are wanting is not very realistic if they want good pics.

I will gladly take any and all advice you all have to share with me on any or all of these contributing factors to a stressful wedding job coming up.

Thanks!

david_h · August 15, 2008

Hi Heather,

This shouldn't be too much of a problem. We shoot in dark churches all the time here in New England and I never use flash during the ceremony because I think it is too distracting and I want to be as unobtrusive as possible.

I always use a pair of bodies, one with my 70-200 vr lens (I'm a Nikon guy) and one with either the 50mm 1.4 or 14-24 2.8. If you use Canon you have access to those great f1.2 primes which would be even better. I just crank up my ISO to 3200 or 6400 and everything works very well.

I'll post a couple of examples later today if I get the chance.

Scott_Quier · August 15, 2008

Shudderz wrote:

OK all.......I am in need of your advice.

I have a wedding coming up on Saturday. It will be my first where flash is NOT allowed. In a Catholic Church. There is NO rehearsal. The Father has simply told them to show up 30 minutes prior to the ceremony. I can't seem to convince them to do ANY pix before the wedding starts (just the gals, just the guys.......) They want to do them all between the ceremony and the reception, at the reception site. They seem to think they can get people in/out of the reception for the photos (and Alcohol will be served in abundance) I told them today that what they are wanting is not very realistic if they want good pics.

I will gladly take any and all advice you all have to share with me on any or all of these contributing factors to a stressful wedding job coming up.

Thanks!

It seems you care about the product you deliver. I do too, but there are limits. It would appear to me that you have "done due diligence" with the couple but my first question to you would be, "Do you have a contract?" If it as a "It is what it is" clause, you have no issues - just warn them, again, that this is a train wreck waiting to happen.
As for the rehearsal - It would appear that the priest is expecting to do a run-through before the ceremony. Anyway, I would get there a bit more than the 30 minutes before the ceremony and be prepared to observe, etc. Use this opportunity to dial in your exposure settings so you don't have to rush right before the ceremony.
No flash during the ceremony - My limited experience shows that to be more the rule than the exception any more. I've had to deal with "house rules" that said:
- Shoot where you like, just don't get between me and the couple. Flash - it's OK.
- Shoot only from the back of the church - don't move forward of the last seated person. Oh, and no flash.
- Find a place and stay there - don't move. Oh, and no flash.
- You can use flash during the processional and the recessional, but not during the ceremony.
- You can use flash during the processional and the recessionall, but you will not photograph during the ceremony - at all.
Your contract should have a clause that addresses having to shoot according to "house rules" and that doing so will have concequences.
Do no be afraid of shooting at ISO 800 or even ISO 1600 (I've never needed anything more than 1600). Your 5D is one of the best low-light cameras around. "Embrace the noise" might be a motto to carry with you on this day. You just have to be sure to get the exposure right - dark images lead to lots of noise. And, having software like Noise Ninja (and others) will help you out a lot during PP.
Portraits at the reception - I have a clause in my contract that makes the client responsible for getting the people for the shot(s) rounded up. I usually suggest they nominate someone who knows most or all the folks there and is not afraid of making their presence known. I phrase is as they are paying me to make photographs, not to waste a lot of time running around trying to find people I don't know so I can then pose them for the shots. They buy into that with little problem. But, I think you are right - getting people to cooperate, especially if the EtOH has been flowing, will be a problem. My advice - don't stress about it. You've already told them that they are not going to be satisfied with the result - I just hope you've documented that conversation.

Travis · August 15, 2008

One of the hardest that I had to shoot was from a room in the back of the church through a plate glass window with no flash. This was back in the film days and I was thooting iso 400. Even though the photos actually managed to come out well, I still have nightmares about that day. lol Definitely follow the advice on putting a clause in the contract that stipulates house rules and the impact on the shoot.

Shudderz · August 15, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

[*]It seems you care about the product you deliver. I do too, but there are limits. It would appear to me that you have "done due diligence" with the couple but my first question to you would be, "Do you have a contract?" If it as a "It is what it is" clause, you have no issues - just warn them, again, that this is a train wreck waiting to happen.

I would NEVER shoot w/o a contract. I think perhaps in this wonderful new "Wedding" forum we should have a thread w/ everyone posting sample contract wording.

Scott_Quier wrote:

[*]As for the rehearsal - It would appear that the priest is expecting to do a run-through before the ceremony. Anyway, I would get there a bit more than the 30 minutes before the ceremony and be prepared to observe, etc. Use this opportunity to dial in your exposure settings so you don't have to rush right before the ceremony.

The couple has asked me to meet them and arrive together at the ceremony site.....the other kink is that the Wedding begins at 1pm, I can't get into the reception location until 12pm to set up my lights. The reception is set to start at 2.....(wedding at 1, reception at 2.....the groom first told me I couldn't get into the location until 1, I reminded him I would be busy shooting the WEDDING at that time. Then he suggested I set up between the ceremony and the reception, I reminded him I'd be shooting their formal shots then.....ugh)

Scott_Quier wrote:

No flash during the ceremony - My limited experience shows that to be more the rule than the exception any more. I've had to deal with "house rules" that said:

Shoot where you like, just don't get between me and the couple. Flash - it's OK.

Shoot only from the back of the church - don't move forward of the last seated person. Oh, and no flash.

Find a place and stay there - don't move. Oh, and no flash.

You can use flash during the processional and the recessional, but not during the ceremony.

You can use flash during the processional and the recessionall, but you will not photograph during the ceremony - at all.

I guess that's where the beauty of Central California comes in. Most weddings are taking place outdoors here, even in November. However, the draw back are the brides that decide to plan a 5pm outside wedding in July. One of my last outdoor weddings was during a heat wave......110 degrees at ceremony time, no shade.

Scott_Quier wrote:

[*]Your contract should have a clause that addresses having to shoot according to "house rules" and that doing so will have concequences.
[*]Do no be afraid of shooting at ISO 800 or even ISO 1600 (I've never needed anything more than 1600). Your 5D is one of the best low-light cameras around. "Embrace the noise" might be a motto to carry with you on this day. You just have to be sure to get the exposure right - dark images lead to lots of noise. And, having software like Noise Ninja (and others) will help you out a lot during PP.
[*]Portraits at the reception - I have a clause in my contract that makes the client responsible for getting the people for the shot(s) rounded up. I usually suggest they nominate someone who knows most or all the folks there and is not afraid of making their presence known. I phrase is as they are paying me to make photographs, not to waste a lot of time running around trying to find people I don't know so I can then pose them for the shots. They buy into that with little problem. But, I think you are right - getting people to cooperate, especially if the EtOH has been flowing, will be a problem. My advice - don't stress about it. You've already told them that they are not going to be satisfied with the result - I just hope you've documented that conversation.
[/list]

Thanks! I appreciate the advice! I care a great deal about the product I deliver. After all, it's my name tied to it.

I will be sitting down tomorrow to note all of our conversations regarding the limitations that are set in place and the lack of cooperation in setting time aside for photos.

I have yet to meet a couple that doesn't stress out between a ceremony and reception during pictures. Even those that have told me pictures are THE priority of the day. Something about knowing you have hundreds of people waiting on you to finish to eat

jonh68 · August 15, 2008

Portraits at the reception - I have a clause in my contract that makes the client responsible for getting the people for the shot(s) rounded up. I usually suggest they nominate someone who knows most or all the folks there and is not afraid of making their presence known. I phrase is as they are paying me to make photographs, not to waste a lot of time running around trying to find people I don't know so I can then pose them for the shots. They buy into that with little problem.

That's a big one! I shot my first wedding two weekends ago. The mother of the bride liked the pictures, but asked why I had more pictures of the grooms family than hers. The easy answer is they ASKED! Get with the two families and ask someone to round up the people and families they want pictures of. Unless you know the family, you do not know who is important and who isn't.

Scott_Quier · August 15, 2008

jonh68 wrote:

That's a big one! I shot my first wedding two weekends ago. The mother of the bride liked the pictures, but asked why I had more pictures of the grooms family than hers. The easy answer is they ASKED! Get with the two families and ask someone to round up the people and families they want pictures of. Unless you know the family, you do not know who is important and who isn't.

Even more than that - make them responsible for creating and managing a prioritized shooting list. When I meet with them over the list, I tell them to budget at least 5 minutes for each pose. Sometimes I can make that target, sometimes I can't - it all depends on how well they can keep all the people in one place and ready for the photos.

Managing - This means they keep the order, they mark off the ones that are done, they track down Uncle Joe who's already found the open bar, etc. Rational: the B&G aren't paying you to play secretary and you don't and can't know all those individuals that need to be in the group photos. At a recent wedding, there was one guest that was nearly impossible to find. It took them almost 20 minutes to find that person. I just told them that we need to move on to the next in sequence and that we would get back to the one that included the MIA person.

Prioritized - Because there's never enough time to get them all done - no matter what the B&G say about pictures being the priority. Pictures may be their priority (even on the day) but seldom is it at the top of the guests' list of things to do between the ceremony and the reception.

As for the "they asked" comment - I always tell my B&G, usually within the hearing of the MoB and FoB, that they should feel free to let their guests know that I'm happy to photograph anyone who asks. And, why not? It's all about making the day as great for the B&G as possible.:D

Scott_Quier · August 15, 2008

Shudderz wrote:

I would NEVER shoot w/o a contract. I think perhaps in this wonderful new "Wedding" forum we should have a thread w/ everyone posting sample contract wording.

Good idea! I started the thread here.

Richard · August 15, 2008

Scott_Quier wrote:

Good idea! I started the thread here.

Thanks, Scott. I added a link to the new thread in the Tips and Resources sticky.

bham · August 15, 2008

Richard wrote:

Thanks, Scott. I added a link to the new thread in the Tips and Resources sticky.

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Since the tips and resources sticky is currently somewhat limited how about a thread for wedding albums that we can add to the list. It would probably be great to have a moderator start the thread, or someone who will take the new info added in new replies and add it to the first message, for easier reference.<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>
Shudderz, well good luck. Catholic wedding ceremonies tend to be long. The last one I did ran 45 minutes. I hope yours is shorter. Get a short list of poses and prioritize. Start with the larger photos, so say after you are done with the wedding party (except for immediate family of bride or groom) you can let them go onto the reception, then same for the family, then leaving you just the B&G. Keeping them a little into the reception should be fine especially since people will be getting in line for the bar and food. With there being alcohol, I find the receptions tend to run longer. And like was said before get at least one, two would be better(that way one is off getting missing people while the other is still there if needed & to help), family members who know the relatives and can go and get them.<o:p></o:p>
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Well just thought to ask this. Is where you will be doing the photos an area that can be blocked off from the rest of the reception location? I just reread your initial post. Depending on the length of the reception (say its 4 hours), and the ceremony goes long and there is only 20 minutes left before the reception starts when you arrive and are ready at the location. You may choose to do just some of the B&G and then wait some time to the groups. This would allow the B&G to some time to meet and greet their guest before trying to do all the group shots. If there is not a separate area that you will be doing the shots from where everybody else is, it may actually be better to wait a while, versus having to try to stop all the friends and family that want to come talk to the couple, etc. You will also have less people shooting over your shoulder later, since they hopefully will be caught up in enjoying the reception.<o:p></o:p>

P.S. Shudderz (Heather) on your contact me page of your website I get some funky looking text, like 2 line of text are overlapped, on the first line next to the blank spaced to be filled in. (in InternetExplorer v6)

Richard · August 15, 2008

bham wrote:

<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Since the tips and resources sticky is currently somewhat limited how about a thread for wedding albums that we can add to the list. It would probably be great to have a moderator start the thread, or someone who will take the new info added in new replies and add it to the first message, for easier reference.<o:p></o:p>

The Tips and Resources thread is an open one. You can add whatever you like to it by replying in it, including a link to another thread you start. As I said, I will try to reorganize it from time to time to make it easier to use, but you are all encouraged to add to it any time.

jeffreaux2 · August 15, 2008

Most churches are open Monday through Friday and also ...of course...on Sunday. Call and make an appointment with the church's wedding coordinator and meet with her to get a look at what the lighting will be like in the sanctuary. You can take test exposures...develop your custom white balance, and find out what the rules of engagement are for photographers shooting weddings there.

It's really no big deal.

Shudderz · August 15, 2008

jeffreaux2 wrote:

Most churches are open Monday through Friday and also ...of course...on Sunday. Call and make an appointment with the church's wedding coordinator and meet with her to get a look at what the lighting will be like in the sanctuary. You can take test exposures...develop your custom white balance, and find out what the rules of engagement are for photographers shooting weddings there.

It's really no big deal.

I usually go along with a couple to the rehearsal, it's worked well for me. I get to see the setting, I know exactly what's happening in the ceremony. Everyone ahead of time gets to know me.........

It just would have been nice if they had let me know before yesterday that they changed plans and decided not to have a rehearsal. I had appointments already set during the day today in my studio. That left me with no time to get out there before hand.

jeffreaux2 · August 15, 2008

Shudderz wrote:

I usually go along with a couple to the rehearsal, it's worked well for me. I get to see the setting, I know exactly what's happening in the ceremony. Everyone ahead of time gets to know me.........

It just would have been nice if they had let me know before yesterday that they changed plans and decided not to have a rehearsal. I had appointments already set during the day today in my studio. That left me with no time to get out there before hand.

Well, I think you will be fine. You will have the same light at the wedding with or without a rehearsal. I always try to make rehearsals myself, but not all weddings are rehearsed. Just do what you know how to do....you will be fine. Just get in there a 'lil early!

Scott_Quier · August 15, 2008

jeffreaux2 wrote:

Well, I think you will be fine. You will have the same light at the wedding with or without a rehearsal. I always try to make rehearsals myself, but not all weddings are rehearsed. Just do what you know how to do....you will be fine. Just get in there a 'lil early!

- a little early and you will have it all figured out before the start and you will have a chance to relax/calm a bit.

Good luck - not that you will need it:D

Shudderz · August 16, 2008

ok, now just because I need a bit of humor before tomorrow...............

there are always new rules/regs/policies being written. Most of them, along with a lot of legal precedents come about because of someone messing up, having a great lack of common sense, or making really poor decisions. I've always joked that the new policies written should be named after the one that the rule was created after.

Imagine our wedding contracts.......with

The Jones wedding clause....
The Smith wedding clause.......
etc. etc.

(All characters are fictional. Any resemblance to actual people is purely by coincidence):D

Shudderz · August 17, 2008

My day wasn't as bad as it could be......
As I got to the church and met the priest, I was informed I could stand in one place and not move during the ceremony. This made me even more glad that I had brought my pocket wizards and remote trigger cord for my second camera! I set my second camera up on the balcony w/ my 70-200 2.8 on it. Got it set, switched the lens to manual focus.....and then headed down to my "spot" for the wedding. I was able to use flash for some of the shots from the front, thankfully.

The one kind of funny side effect of the remote camera, is that I took more pictures of me today than ever!

This shot was taken just before the ceremony began.

Agnieszka · August 17, 2008

Dark church??? Haha ... (sorry)

Shudderz · August 18, 2008

Agnieszka wrote:

Dark church??? Haha ... (sorry)

I know.....

I think the priest has dealt with some really pushy photographers. He made a comment about photographers coming into the church and wanting to take over the place. He would actually look at me during the ceremony and tell me.....you must stop taking pictures now, no pictures are allowed at this time.........then a bit later in the ceremony would look at me and tell me I could take pictures again.

I wasn't allowed to go in before hand, only 30 minutes prior to the ceremony. I was going off of what the couple had told me, and another photographer had told me that the church was really dark. I think the wedding being at 1pm helped too, lots of light coming in through the windows.

I got away with ISO 800 1/50 @2.8 with the remote camera. With the 70-200 I wouldn't have hand held that....but on a tripod I was ok.

Unfortunately where the priest had me standing I couldn't see the bride come down the aisle. The only pictures I got of her walking down the aisle are from the remote camera up above behind her.

It actually ended up being one of the easiest weddings I've shot. (but one of the most boring receptions) No wedding cake, no bouquet toss, no garter toss, no toast............... simply dinner, pie, and a Mariachi Band...FOR THREE HOURS.

I had my laptop with me and had downloaded the pictures before I left the reception. The couple wanted to see some of them and seem very pleased. The Mariachi band liked some of the shots of them as well and will be contacting me for large prints to hang in a family restaurant.

I know most photographers don't take their laptops like that, but I've found that if I have a small table in the corner of a reception it gives me a place to store some of my gear as well. I run a slideshow of some of the shots from the day while I'm away from my computer. The guests REALLY like being able to see a few shots from the wedding, (I've seen quite a few mother of the brides thrilled to be able to see some of them right away). I usually put my business cards next to the laptop. I seem to get more referrals from wedding location owners to couples too. They get a chance to see some of my work right away, even if it is all straight out of camera. (Better get it right the first time, not something I'd suggest if you rely on photoshop to rescue you.....lol)

jonh68 · August 18, 2008

I have only done two weddings, but I did bring my laptop to download after the weddings. I just felt safer doing that.

wedding in a dark church, no flash, no rehearsal.......ugh

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