Purchasing from an event photographer

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

I recently took part in an event last weekend. It was for charity, a Royal Marines training assault course. I tried to persuade a friend of mine to come and take photos, but he didn't want to get up in the morning, so I have to purchase the photos from the official photographers.

Now, these guys are charging 12 UK Pounds per photo on a CD. I have gone through their website and found all the images of my team. There are 30 photos which come to a grand total of 360 UK Pounds!!

I could buy a new Nikon D60 for that! Now I can understand that the photographers have to cover their costs. But even if they sold one photograph to 10% of the people who took part (over 4000) they would make 4000 UK Pounds, more than enough to cover a decent day rate for each of the four photographers who took part. I know also that they were selling quite a few photos on the day.

Many of the photographs they will NEVER sell because of bad composition, bad facial expressions etc because it was an action event and they just uploaded all the photos to their website regardless of composition and quality. It seems to me that their pricing is based around people only purchasing a single photo. As a result in my mind I think 360 UK Pounds for a CD full of JPEGS is far too much. Especially when no retouching or post processing of any kind has been performed.

What do people here think is reasonable to charge participants in an event for digital photos such as this?

Doing the sums, if the average team consisted of, say 4 people (my team actually had 7 members), if only 10% of those 4000 participants purchased a CD at 70 UK Pounds they would make 16k UK Pounds from it!!

In fact if only 10% of the teams purchased a CD between them at 70 UK pounds per CD the company could still make decent money of around 5000 UK Pounds. That isn't bad for roughly 2 days work! I'm in the high end video production field and that's far, far more than I could get away with charging for a similar amount of work time. And my equipment overheads are far higher than his I can assure you!

Blaker · October 16, 2008

Have you contacted the photographer to see if you can get a discounted price for the 30 photos you want?

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

Yeah, I have contacted them to see what they can do. They have asked me to make them an offer.

I really do feel that promoted properly they could make a lot more money by selling bulk images on a CD to each of the teams rather than individual photos. It really was the type of event where people would want a record of their taking part because it isn't something that people would do every day. But I can't imagine anyone paying their current prices.

Sam · October 16, 2008

Simon,

You seem to have a Smugmug gallery with photos. How did your friend not going impact your ability to take your own photos?

The images they uploaded could just be proofs. Do you know for a fact they aren't going to do any PP on images sold?

You also say it's a charity event. Did a portion of the sales go to this charity?

Here in the US it's more common for event photographers to sell prints as opposed to the actual file.

If your photographers were selling prints at say only 5 Lbs each. Then the cost for each member of your team to have one photo each would be 35 Lbs. The photographers are offering you a file that you can print as many as you want for only 12 Lbs. Doesn't seem all that bad.

You are not being forced to buy anything. It's up to you to determine if the images are worth it to you. The thought that they might make more money for their efforts than you think is needed, isn't part of the discussion.

The real issue here is very common. You want the images. You just don't want to pay the asking price.

Sam

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

You seem to have a Smugmug gallery with photos. How did your friend not going impact your ability to take your own photos?

It would be rather difficult to take photos of myself and my team going over a Royal Marines assault course through waist deep mud, chest deep lakes, and underwater sewer pipes!! Much as I like to think of myself as a multi-tasker I think that would have been a bit too much!

Do you know for a fact they aren't going to do any PP on images sold?

Yes, I asked them.

Did a portion of the sales go to this charity?

Yes. But seeing as I have just raised a lot of money plus an initial fee for the event I took part in I shouldn't be forced into having to contribute twice. Whether or not the photographers send money to the charity is their business, not mine.

The real issue here is very common. You want the images. You just don't want to pay the asking price.

No, the real issue here is that their pricing is based on low volume sales, and doesn't account or allow for bulk purchases.

So far as I can tell selling a single image for £12 is based on the idea that they will only sell a single image and does not account for bulk purchases. £360 for a CD is way, way too much. My team members are in no way prepared to stump up the money for that, and I doubt that many of the other teams who took part would either. So they are literally killing their sales based on that.

Like I said, if they promoted a CD of all the images of a given team for £70 they would only have to sell to 10% of the teams to make £5600. And each team member would only have to contribute around £10 each. If they sold to 20% of the teams they would make £11200! I'd say that was pretty good for two days work!!

Lets put this into perspective. My video camera equipment alone was £30k to buy. That isn't including all my lighting and grip equipment. The overheads for video at my level FAR exceed those for the majority of average event photographers. I'm not saying all photogs don't have highly expensive equipment. But most event guys do not spend this level of money.

Yet the average industry standard day rate I can charge is around £550 per day for a 10hr day. So I'd be rather happy at getting £5k for two days work, especially having to cover the working costs of much less expensive equipment!

If this guy doesn't sell many copies of the photos then I'm not surprised. Everyone I have spoken to has balked at the idea of spending all that money to obtain all the team images.

So, what would you as a business person rather have? No sales at all, or the chance to sell much more and get more money by selling the images more cheaply? If he promoted a much cheaper CD or offer via the official event website he could make a killing. But not at £12 a digital CD image he won't.

If your photographers were selling prints at say only 5 Lbs each.

They aren't. They are selling them at £10 each, and it is unlikely that anyone would buy 30 prints. If the digital images were £5 each it would be reasonable, especially for a bulk purchase of 30 images on a CD. If he charged that (£5) per image on the CD I wouldn't have as much of a problem with it.

Lets face it, most industries would offer a cheaper rate for bulk purchases. There is no way he would sell any of our team images to anyone else but us. And there is no chance of my team buying all of the images at the prices he is charging. So the way I see it is that giving us a CD for £70 isn't really making any difference at all to his bottom line because of the seven team members most would usually only purchase one photo, which would total around £70. Even then it may be that not all of the team would buy a photo. In which case selling us the CD for £70 would mean he would make a lot more than he might otherwise do for the team set!

Nikolai · October 16, 2008

You seem to be upset, but here's the gist: it's a pure supply and demand issue. Nobody is "entitled" to pictures taken by somebody else UNLESS it was a part of initial agreement.

You don't think the price is fair - fine, negotiate (he asked you to make him an offer, didn't he?) or just forget it and try to arrange for your own coverage next time (provided it's allowed).
One thing for sure - you can't tell him what is HIS fair price. It's his choice and his choice only. Your choices are to agree to pay it, try to get a discount and accept the fact it's too expensive and do not get any.

My friend was participating motobike racing thing some time ago. CD with a few images were offered for $100. Guy had an exclusive right with the track, so nobody could have similar pictures even in theory. Deal was take it or leave it. Some chosen to buy it, some didn't. It's that simple.

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

Nikolai wrote:

My friend was participating motobike racing thing some time ago. CD with a few images were offered for $100. Guy had an exclusive right with the track, so nobody could have similar pictures even in theory. Deal was take it or leave it. Some chosen to buy it, some didn't. It's that simple.

$100 is reasonable! I'd have paid that without hesitation. What this guy is offering is over five times that price.

Your choices are to agree to pay it, try to get a discount and accept the fact it's too expensive and do not get any.

That is true, yes. However my not buying them means that he isn't making any money. There is virtually zero chance anyone outside of my team would purchase images of us since the photos are only really of interest to those who took part. So it just looks to me that he's cutting off his nose to spite his face by not accounting for bulk orders.

I'm not upset. Just perplexed. This topic has gone off topic because I really wanted to know what guys here would charge.

Your mention of $100 per CD is much more along the lines of what I would call reasonable. And your friend had exclusive access. The event I took part in, even though it is a course that the Marines use all the time, is actually on publicly accessible land. So anybody could take images there and sell them if they wanted to. So it isn't as if the images are exclusive or not similar to possibly hundreds of others taken by other team members friends and families.

Nikolai · October 16, 2008

Simon, if he doesn't make any sales, chances are he'll eventually go broke or would have to lower the prices. Unfortuantely it doesn't help you in this current situation.

I'll say if you still want the pics - make him an offer *you* think is fair and see how it goes. Simply be ready to walk away if you don't like the prices. Works most of the times:-)

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

make him an offer *you* think is fair and see how it goes. Simply be ready to walk away if you don't like the prices. Works most of the times

This is what I have done, and I am awaiting a reply. I've made it clear that i am prepared to barter.

mercphoto · October 16, 2008

SimonMW wrote:

Like I said, if they promoted a CD of all the images of a given team for £70 they would only have to sell to 10% of the teams to make £5600. And each team member would only have to contribute around £10 each. If they sold to 20% of the teams they would make £11200! I'd say that was pretty good for two days work!!

I briefly tried to sell race CD's when I was doing motocross and karts. I found a few things. One, very few people ever actually bought. So I think you might find that the Photographer probably won't sell as many CD's as you might think. Secondly, locating only the correct images, and all of them, and burning the disc is a lot more work than you probably think. Especially if this was a large event with lots of teams playing multiple games. In other words, CD sales can often create more work for incremental extra income.

Lastly, only the vendor himself can determine if that 5,600 pounds figure is good enough for two days work. Have you figured in the cost of support personnel? Liablity insurance? Vendor fees? Travel costs? Wear and tear on gear? How about all the taxes any business has to pay? This type of business is often much more expensive to run than people realize.

Sam · October 16, 2008

It would be rather difficult to take photos of myself and my team going over a Royal Marines assault course through waist deep mud, chest deep lakes, and underwater sewer pipes!! Much as I like to think of myself as a multi-tasker I think that would have been a bit too much!

And you call yourself a Royal Marine!

Yes, I asked them.

No PP? Bummer I am going to quess you can’t get RAW files.

Yes. But seeing as I have just raised a lot of money plus an initial fee for the event I took part in I shouldn't be forced into having to contribute twice. Whether or not the photographers send money to the charity is their business, not mine.

Well, if they are compelled to give back a % of sales it would impact their ability to lower the price.

No, the real issue here is that their pricing is based on low volume sales, and doesn't account or allow for bulk purchases.

While you can discuss this concept with the photogs, you can’t dictate how another person will price their products or services.

From what you are posting it seems like this should be a opportunity for you.

Next time, get your own group of photographers, cover the event, and charge what you want to charge.

Sam

ChatKat · October 16, 2008

Official
I did some work (not photo) for the local theater company (Actually, my dog was in a play) and the theater company is non profit. Because of the agreement with the photographer, no one could even take photos of the event. You had to buy from their photographer if you wanted any images.
No one but the photographer made any money from the event images.
I wanted photos of my dog on stage and the only way to get them was to pay the photographer
If I shoot a wedding, guests can bring a camera but my contract says no other professionals. It's my contract that states that so that I can make the money agreed upon by contract.

As a professional photographer, I have lots of expenses that are not obvious to the client. My time to process, my computer, my lenses and insurance, lighting, storage, web presence - all that is factored.

When you go to the grocery store and buy a can of beans you can't negotiate. The beans have a set price. And if you go to a restaurant, and you want a soda with your meal, you can't bring your own in. You have to pay for it or drink water which is free.

Same goes for photography. The store is selling the wares. If you want them, it's a free market society. They named their price. If you want to negotiate a bulk price, they said to open negotiations. But if you can't find a happy price with them, you have to suffer the consequences of no photos.

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

And you call yourself a Royal Marine!

Oh no, I'd never do that! I'm not in the Army and never have been.

No PP? Bummer I am going to quess you can’t get RAW files.

Spot on, they are JPEGS.

Well, if they are compelled to give back a % of sales it would impact their ability to lower the price.

I doubt they are compelled to give any back in this instance. I think they are doing it more out of their own free will because it is a good cause (helping the injured soldiers coming back from Iraq etc).

While you can discuss this concept with the photogs, you can’t dictate how another person will price their products or services.

Very true, but it just seems to me to be a case of photographers having participants over a barrel.

Next time, get your own group of photographers, cover the event, and charge what you want to charge.

I might just do that!

Have you figured in the cost of support personnel? Liablity insurance? Vendor fees? Travel costs? Wear and tear on gear?

Yes. Like I say, I work in the video field and my gear costs one heck of a lot more than any normal stills gear! Even a low end cheap lens for my camera costs £4k (about $7k). If I had to cover the event for video using the same number of cameras as him I would have to charge a day rate for each of the camera guys then editing.

So, lets look at what I would have to do videowise.

1. Shoot the event with 4 camera ops. £500 p/day. (£4k for the two days)
2. Ingest and edit all the footage. (eg 3 days editing @ 350p/day = £1050)
3. Grade and match the footage. (1 day. £350)
4. Edit and mix the sound. (1 day £350)
5. Pay music fees. (eg £90)
6. Design and construct the DVD (1 day for basic job £350)

There is more involvement than this (for example I would probably need sound ops to get interviews with people along with camera assistants possibly), but you get the idea.

Total £6190

Now, I would have to pay my camera operators regardless of sales. Let me ask you people. Would you pay me £360 for a video DVD to help me cover my production costs? I doubt it. I could probably get away with selling a DVD at £20 absolute maximum, and even then I doubt people would buy it going on what my colleagues say about videoing car rallies.

Now lets look at the stills guys job.

1. Four photographers to take photos.
2. Pay for assistants to sell photos on the event day.
3. Ingest the photos into the computer and the company web server.
4. Sell the photos online.

If he's been at this a while he should have the process of ingest and upload pretty much automated. His photos should be on a database system so they should be easy to find and copy to a CD. He's not doing any PP work, the photos are JPEGS not RAW.

Simon, if he doesn't make any sales, chances are he'll eventually go broke or would have to lower the prices.

And this is where I think it is interesting. He has been going for a number of years, which leads me to believe that he must be making good money from this. Like you say, if he never made any sales he wouldn't be in business. His individual prices are okay. I don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is keeping each price the same even for a large bulk order.

He has just got back to me and countered with a reasonable offer which I'll consider.

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

I wanted photos of my dog on stage and the only way to get them was to pay the photographer

Okay, forget all of this "thats the price he names, and thats the price you'll have to pay" stuff. I just want a straight answer from you, as a potential customer. Forget that you are a photographer, just answer it like a consumer. £360 at the current exchange rate is $623.

Straight question. Do you think $623 is a good deal for a CD with 30 JPEGs on it?

Blaker · October 16, 2008

SimonMW wrote:

Okay, forget all of this "thats the price he names, and thats the price you'll have to pay" stuff. I just want a straight answer from you, as a potential customer. Forget that you are a photographer, just answer it like a consumer. £360 at the current exchange rate is $623.

Straight question. Do you think $623 is a good deal for a CD with 30 JPEGs on it?

Depends on what the jpegs are- if it were 30 jpegs of me kissing Paul McCartney, then yeah, it'd be totally worth it!

LUCKYSHOT · October 16, 2008

SimonMW wrote:

Okay, forget all of this "thats the price he names, and thats the price you'll have to pay" stuff. I just want a straight answer from you, as a potential customer. Forget that you are a photographer, just answer it like a consumer. £360 at the current exchange rate is $623.

Straight question. Do you think $623 is a good deal for a CD with 30 JPEGs on it?

$20 Per picture does not seem particularily high, but then I am in New York.
BTW, I charge $10 per digital image
all the best
Chris

Nikolai · October 16, 2008

LUCKYSHOT wrote:

$20 Per picture does not seem particularily high, but then I am in New York.
BTW, I charge $10 per digital image
all the best
Chris

on both accounts. I charge $9.99 for mid res (4mpix) digital download.

SimonMW · October 16, 2008

Nikolai wrote:

on both accounts. I charge $9.99 for mid res (4mpix) digital download.

Again, $9.99 is quite reasonable.

$20 Per picture does not seem particularily high, but then I am in New York.

Yeah, but as I keep saying this isn't about a single image. It's about 30 images. $20 isn't much for individual pricing. But it is for bulk purchase.

Nikolai · October 16, 2008

SimonMW wrote:

Yeah, but as I keep saying this isn't about a single image. It's about 30 images. $20 isn't much for individual pricing. But it is for bulk purchase.

Simon, he priced individual images. You made him an offer about bulk purchases and he made "fair counter", which you said you'll consider. What's the problem? It almost always works like that.

FWIW my single image prices are fairly high, too. I cannot preprogramm the shopping cart for all possibilities of bulk deals, so they are alway negotiable. Those who need just a handful of prints simply buy "as is" (or don't buy at all:-), special cases are treated, uhm, specially.

davidweaver · October 17, 2008

BOOM! It is the price. If you don't want to pay it then negotiate. Seems to me that setting up a company to gather shots and then offer then for sale has a lot of costs.

If you don't like the price then don't buy. It is a market economy here as there was the ability for competition. If you are the only shooter then bump your rates and make some money so you can send your kids to a better schiool, go on vacation, buy more gear.... You get it. I'm getting ready to bump up my prices for shots in 2009 as I'm giving away stuff right now...and that is not good.

Nikolai wrote:

You seem to be upset, but here's the gist: it's a pure supply and demand issue. Nobody is "entitled" to pictures taken by somebody else UNLESS it was a part of initial agreement.

Digital Illusions · October 18, 2008

reading this thread i can see both sides of the issue. of course the photographer wants to make money, i mean why else are we in business. the consumer wants a fair deal. personally i think the deal the photographer is offering you is fair.

you try to compare video to still photography. that is like trying to compare apples to oranges. sure they are both fruit but they are not the same fruit. video and still are 2 ways to record an event but they are not the same recoding method. so personally i dont buy that angle.

this photographer has justified his cost of 30 each somehow, you find that this is not adequate. the answer at this point is you either buy the photos or you walk away.

Purchasing from an event photographer

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