Print Prices

winnjewett · April 21, 2005

I'd like to know why it costs more to order a print from smugmug than it does from ezprints. I knew about and agreed to a 15% commission, but it seems as though smugmug is skimming a little more off the top than they like to admit. If I'm missing something, please point it out. Here's what I see:

Size.... Smugmug....... Ez Prints............ Extra Cost
5x7......... $ 0.99.......... $ 0.85......... $ 0.14 (16%)
8x10....... $ 2.99.......... $ 2.45......... $ 0.54 (22%)
11x14..... $ 5.49.......... $ 3.95......... $ 1.54 (39%)
16x20.... $ 17.99........ $ 14.95......... $ 3.04 (20%)
20x30.... $ 21.99........ $ 17.95......... $ 4.04 (23%)

Mitch · April 21, 2005

winnjewett wrote:

I'd like to know why it costs more to order a print from smugmug than it does from ezprints. I knew about and agreed to a 15% commission, but it seems as though smugmug is skimming a little more off the top than they like to admit. If I'm missing something, please point it out. Here's what I see:

Size.... Smugmug....... Ez Prints............ Extra Cost
5x7......... $ 0.99.......... $ 0.85......... $ 0.14 (16%)
8x10....... $ 2.99.......... $ 2.45......... $ 0.54 (22%)
11x14..... $ 5.49.......... $ 3.95......... $ 1.54 (39%)
16x20.... $ 17.99........ $ 14.95......... $ 3.04 (20%)
20x30.... $ 21.99........ $ 17.95......... $ 4.04 (23%)

Hi winnjewett,

OK...? IMHO Smugmug is a business, and as such are here to make a profit. I will not fault them for that.

When I get all my duck in a row for my site I will pay $2.99 for an 8X10 which I will list out at ????? $35 - $40 - $50 ???? So on a $50 print I will make $39.96. I don't have to print it or ship it.

Just my thoughts

Mitch

Baldy · April 21, 2005

winnjewett wrote:

it seems as though smugmug is skimming a little more off the top than they like to admit.

We actually have no heartburn admitting it: you can buy at wholesale by going factory-direct. I often say in my emails to pros that they also have some products we don't offer, such as panoramic prints.

Here are price lists for others who go through EZ Prints:

Printroom
Webshots

I can't speak for them, but I imagine their reasons are the same as ours: they have credit card fees, fraudulent orders, customer service, etc.

Thanks,
Baldy

winnjewett · April 21, 2005

Baldy wrote:

We actually have no heartburn admitting it: you can buy at wholesale by going factory-direct. I often say in my emails to pros that they also have some products we don't offer, such as panoramic prints.

Here are price lists for others who go through EZ Prints:

Printroom
Webshots

I can't speak for them, but I imagine their reasons are the same as ours: they have credit card fees, fraudulent orders, customer service, etc.

Thanks,
Baldy

I understand, and I certainly don't fault you for using this business model. I guess I was a little surprised when I looked at the prices, and realized that it wasn't just 15% that I'm paying.

-winn

Andy · April 21, 2005

winnjewett wrote:

I understand, and I certainly don't fault you for using this business model. I guess I was a little surprised when I looked at the prices, and realized that it wasn't just 15% that I'm paying.

-winn

when i compared $$, i looked at everything: hosting, fulfillment, customer service etc. smugmug saves me a mint hands down over alternatives.

winnjewett · April 21, 2005

Mitch wrote:

Hi winnjewett,

OK...? IMHO Smugmug is a business, and as such are here to make a profit. I will not fault them for that.

When I get all my duck in a row for my site I will pay $2.99 for an 8X10 which I will list out at ????? $35 - $40 - $50 ???? So on a $50 print I will make $39.96. I don't have to print it or ship it.

Just my thoughts

Mitch

I agree with you completely, Mitch. I get frustrated when I start to notice hidden fees (I don't deal well with cell phone carriers). That hidden fee bug inside me started to wriggle around a little when I noticed the discrepency b/n smugmug and ezprints.
-winn

Cameron · April 21, 2005

winnjewett wrote:

I agree with you completely, Mitch. I get frustrated when I start to notice hidden fees (I don't deal well with cell phone carriers). That hidden fee bug inside me started to wriggle around a little when I noticed the discrepency b/n smugmug and ezprints.
-winn

I can see why it might bother you, but it's good business. I just got back from the grocery store and I'm sure I paid more for my fresh produce than the grocery store paid their supplier. I paid a bit more for presentation and convenience. Besides - the stuff in my garden always dies...

landrum · April 21, 2005

winnjewett wrote:

I'd like to know why it costs more to order a print from smugmug than it does from ezprints. I knew about and agreed to a 15% commission, but it seems as though smugmug is skimming a little more off the top than they like to admit. If I'm missing something, please point it out. Here's what I see:

Size.... Smugmug....... Ez Prints............ Extra Cost
5x7......... $ 0.99.......... $ 0.85......... $ 0.14 (16%)
8x10....... $ 2.99.......... $ 2.45......... $ 0.54 (22%)
11x14..... $ 5.49.......... $ 3.95......... $ 1.54 (39%)
16x20.... $ 17.99........ $ 14.95......... $ 3.04 (20%)
20x30.... $ 21.99........ $ 17.95......... $ 4.04 (23%)

Do you sell to your customers at cost? I most certainly don't. I don't know why you would be surprised that they mark up the prints...just like you do. At least the mark up is relatively small. You can go directly thru EZPrints if you would prefer...no one is holding you hostage here.

bkriete · April 22, 2005

I think the point Winn is making is not that SmugMug shouldn't make a profit...but that he thought from the user agreement that that profit came from the 15% commision, not from an additional 16-39% markup on prints.

rainforest1155 · April 22, 2005

bkriete wrote:

I think the point Winn is making is not that SmugMug shouldn't make a profit...but that he thought from the user agreement that that profit came from the 15% commision, not from an additional 16-39% markup on prints.

These 15% only apply for pros. All the others (standard and power users) don't produce this commision. I guess therefore they increased the EZPrints price. From my standard-account-customer-point-of-view this is totally correct as was stated before with the factory-sale example. Every dealer between the customer and the factory has to get something of the cake to survive.

Sebastian

dashphotography · April 22, 2005

My personal view on this issue.
Okay my first post wiped out by mistake before it posted so maybe it was a sign I should have made it shorter and I'll try to do so this time.

I have a Pro Account. I love Smugmug, think the world of it, and I've referred other users as well.

However, I have serious issues with hidden things/charges not spelled out. I am the type of person that does assume things from time to time. I can honestly say that by reading the info before signing up for the Pro Account that I viewed it as more of a Vendor - Partner relationship. I assumed that everything was plain as day and I was getting the same price as what EZ Prints charged and that the total cost of partnership with Smugmug was my 99.00 per year fee and then I would give up 15% of ALL of my total profits to Smugmug.

I do not look at my Pro Account as a casual user. I am trying to ramp up a personal business on the side to supplement my day job income..and who knows where that may lead down the road. I take every penny I earn using Smugmug seriously and so far it's not a great deal of pennies but it is increasing.

I'm both glad, and sorry that Winnjett posted what he found. If your going to make more money off of me then just flat out hide it all together. Charge me 199.00 per year and 17% of my profits as a Pro Account if you have to but don't hide profits from me. I feel like I'm your partner and should be treated as such. Change the verbage on your Pro Account signup so it's clear that the total cost of ownership as a pro user is a little more than just the 99.00 per year and 15% of our profits. $2.00 or more profit on lots of 8x10 or larger pictures that we sell over time adds up to be a good deal of change. If you do want to make more money off of the Pro User than what is plain to see on the surface, then at least strike a deal with EZ Prints to charge you less than what they have posted on-line or give you a some sort of percentage of sales kickback (maybe something like this are already the case).....and at least this way...it's hidden for the Pro Account user and we don't feel upset with charges/profits etc that were not blatently obvious to us. This model might work for the other accounts...but I feel it is not correct for the Pro Account.

Landrum said : "Do you sell to your customers at cost?" Well my answer is NO..but I dont charge them a yearly fee and take a percentage of their income as well. I don't think Smugmug should look at me as a customer either. Again...charge more or change the model if you have to...but a Pro Account should be viewed as a business partner. I treat my photo business seriously (although I'm learning and have lots to do yet). I want to look at the total big picture, with nothing hidden, hard to see....total cost of ownership or price of doing business with my partner....Smugmug.

Well, I've spoke my mind and the way I feel. Anyone can agree or disagree but at least I've said my take on it.

Shawn.

landrum wrote:

Do you sell to your customers at cost? I most certainly don't. I don't know why you would be surprised that they mark up the prints...just like you do. At least the mark up is relatively small. You can go directly thru EZPrints if you would prefer...no one is holding you hostage here.

flyingpylon · April 22, 2005

I'd certainly be willing to bet that smugmug is paying less per print than the prices quoted on the EZ Prints site. But the thing is, I don't recall seeing any smugmug document that said Pros could set prices above what smugmug pays to make their profit. I'm pretty sure that they say Pros can set prices above smugmug's base prices which is an important difference.

Seems like some people have incorrectly assumed some things, and that's what has led to this misunderstanding. I don't really see a problem with smugmug's policy at all, and in fact it seems fairly reasonable. I don't think a business (even in a "partnership" between two businesses) should be expected to disclose its costs. You need to decide if the base prices work for you, and if they do, why should it matter what smugmug's costs are? If it's a win/win, it's a win/win, not a question about "who's winning more?".

Just my two cents.

landrum · April 22, 2005

dashphotography wrote:

However, I have serious issues with hidden things/charges not spelled out. I am the type of person that does assume things from time to time. I can honestly say that by reading the info before signing up for the Pro Account that I viewed it as more of a Vendor - Partner relationship. I assumed that everything was plain as day and I was getting the same price as what EZ Prints charged and that the total cost of partnership with Smugmug was my 99.00 per year fee and then I would give up 15% of ALL of my total profits to Smugmug.

There are no hidden charges here. They plainly post their prices for each item. If the prices they posted matched EZPrint's prices, and then they added the 20% later...that would be hidden. The don't. They say "We charge $3 for an 8x10" and that's what I pay. They say "for Pros we charge 15% of the profit for handeling fees" and that's what I pay. I know that I can get it for less going direct thru EZPrints and I can get an account there anytime. I choose not to because the fees are worth my not having to deal with any of the problems associated with that end of business. That's for me. Everyone doesn't agree, and that's why everyone doesn't order thru SmugMug.

If my customers knew what I paid compared to what I charge them, could they say that I have hidden fees? The annual cost for having the account has nothing to do with printing prices, so don't throw that up again. I just think that it's ridiculous to expect them to not have any markup. That's business!

:soapbox

Okay, I'm done now.

Mitch · April 22, 2005

Ok...My turn to jump in.

I too am a big fan of SM. That doen't mean that when I hear of a different service I don't check it out.

As soon as I figured out that I could go to ezprint's web page I did, just to check it out. I'm not sure when, but I've know that there was a difference for a while. Was the difference between what ezprints charges and SM charges hidden? NO! Am I a customer of SM? YES!! Are they getting a better price from ezprints that I can? I don't care!

You may notice that mine was the first reply. Not really true though there was another. Even though I addressed my reply to winnjewett it was really meant for the true second post in this thread. This is my way of saying I didn't mean to come down on Winnjewett.

What it all comes down to is SM is a business. From what I have seen a very friendly business, but still a business. When I print my own do I know what the ink cost the person I buy it from? Do I need to know? As long as it is the price I am willing to pay that is all that maters.

Now that part of all this that bothers me the most is something that has not been touched on. Just like everyone of us can go to ezprints web page and see what they charge for their print service your customer can get a SM account and figure out that you are paying $3.00 for a print that you are charging them $50.00 and they still have to pay S&H on it.

Now you can yell "that's not the same. That you are not selling them just the picture, you are selling them your talent, art, or what ever." But isn't that what SM is selling you? Their service?

I like SM. I am willing to pay their prices for now. I do not think any of us has the right to complain about what they pay the service that we buy. No more than your customer has a right to complain about the fact that you pay $3.00 for a print that you are selling for $50.00 or more.

Mitch

dashphotography · April 22, 2005

I agree with the quotes here that Smugmug has a business to run and make a profit. In simple terms I "assumed" that at least on the Pro Account..that the price we paid Smugmug for a print...was the exact same price I would have paid EZ Prints for the same print. I guess I was wrong to assume that the business model for the Pro Account was that Smugmug made 99.00 per year from me, and then they took 15% of all of my profits.

What Winnjett simply pointed out by his post..and what I was not aware of, is that the total cost of ownership/ or doing business with Smugmug...is actually a little higher than what I thought it was costing me. And by this I am talking about comparing them to other services and what they charge, or by thinking about running my own site and handling the orders and processing myself.

I too think I looked at the prices a long while back and I thought the 4x6's were priced the same or exact. What Winnjett pointed out is that the larger the print ordered....the bigger the difference in what Smugmug is charging over EZ Prints for the exact same size picture.

In essence I'm not blaming anyone but myself for assuming that the prices were exactly the same. It is totally my fault for not comparing. If Smugmug wants to be a little more open about it to avoid confusion for any other Pro Account that wants to sign up they can disclose that right there on their site if they choose too. Or not choose to.

It just surprised me thats all, and I will be sure to tell those referrals that I send in the future for any account on Smugmug that this is the way it works. It's just not clear and open unless you do your own comparing and homework.

Cameron · April 22, 2005

dashphotography wrote:

It just surprised me thats all, and I will be sure to tell those referrals that I send in the future for any account on Smugmug that this is the way it works. It's just not clear and open unless you do your own comparing and homework.

I disagree that it's "not clear and open" - you're getting exactly what you pay for at a price that is clearly marked. If you can do it cheaper elsewhere, that's great. It's not smugmug's responsibility to provide you with a cost comparison for all alternatives. So they charge more than EZPrints - that's no surprise. You're a smugmug customer, just like those who buy your prints are YOUR customers. They never claimed to charge you their "cost" or the same as what EZPrints charges.

Anyway, I know you're not trying to stir up any animosity here - we all like smugmug and that's understood (or we wouldn't keep using them). In the short while I've been here though, it seems people are expecting more and more for the relatively small fee that smugmug charges.

landrum · April 22, 2005

dashphotography wrote:

I guess I was wrong to assume that the business model for the Pro Account was that Smugmug made 99.00 per year from me, and then they took 15% of all of my profits.

The annual fee for the service is only for storage and broadband use (and the cost for development, maintanance, customer service, etc, etc). You pay that fee for every account (varying rates for each type of course) regardless of if you use the printing services or not. I don't know why you keep bringing that up because it has nothing to do with the fees involved for printing.

There are lots of services out there that offer online galleries and printing services for your customers. The annual fees are higher on the ones that I've seen. Do you really think that they aren't getting a mark up on the price they charge you for the prints even though they are also outsourced?

You said you didn't do your research before you signed up. You can look for other services that charge only what they pay, but I will save you some trouble...no one stays in business if they sell everything at cost.

Baldy · April 24, 2005

It sounds like this misunderstanding comes in part from being open about who our supplier is, which, as far as I know, no one else does.

We could put a disclaimer on our pages that you can buy similar prints from EZ Prints for less, which you sort-of can. That brings up questions of full disclosure: do we need to explain that it's only partly true because their autoadjust settings are different than ours, they handle cropping differently, we offer lustre finish and print sizes they don't but they offer gifts and panoramics we don't? With our return policy, we rarely ask you to return the prints but EZ Prints always does and will not always accept your returns. We have to charge state tax in California but they charge it in Georgia... Shipping charges may not be exactly equal in some countries. It could be a pretty big list.

It seems to me simpler and clearer to state our charges and policies in full, which I think we do. If I'm not mistaken, EZ Prints has in the neighborhood of 175 companies they supply some print sizes or gifts to, which includes many of the companies you can think of. But I'm trying to think which ones disclose that EZ Prints is one of their suppliers or that you can get prints directly from them cheaper? You can see why they don't — it gets pretty messy.

Print Prices

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