20D/1d mkII vs Sports

Bodley · April 24, 2005

I have been using the 20D/70-200mm f2.8 IS for shooting action sports shots (High School & youth league). My general setup is large JPEG, auto-exposure, Av and center AF point. While I have ~1800 shots posted to my site I have culled many shots and many of the posted shots required a lot of work in PSCS and are not that sharp.

I've read that the 1dMKII is much better for sports. My questions are:

1) What kind of AF difference is there if center point is selected on each?

2) Is the auto-exposure system better on the 1D MKII?

3) What other differences (i know 5fps vs 8.3 fps) should be expected.

Thanks,
Greg

ian408 · April 24, 2005

Bodley wrote:

I have been using the 20D/70-200mm f2.8 IS for shooting action sports shots (High School & youth league). My general setup is large JPEG, auto-exposure, Av and center AF point. While I have ~1800 shots posted to my site I have culled many shots and many of the posted shots required a lot of work in PSCS and are not that sharp.

I've read that the 1dMKII is much better for sports. My questions are:

1) What kind of AF difference is there if center point is selected on each?

2) Is the auto-exposure system better on the 1D MKII?

3) What other differences (i know 5fps vs 8.3 fps) should be expected.

Thanks,
Greg

Greg, I moved your post over here to the Serious Camera forum.
It should get a few more eyes here.

Ian

winger · April 25, 2005

Bodley wrote:

I have been using the 20D/70-200mm f2.8 IS for shooting action sports shots (High School & youth league). My general setup is large JPEG, auto-exposure, Av and center AF point. While I have ~1800 shots posted to my site I have culled many shots and many of the posted shots required a lot of work in PSCS and are not that sharp.

I've read that the 1dMKII is much better for sports. My questions are:

1) What kind of AF difference is there if center point is selected on each?

2) Is the auto-exposure system better on the 1D MKII?

3) What other differences (i know 5fps vs 8.3 fps) should be expected.

Thanks,
Greg

Ok I went from a 20D to a 1dMKII and I will see what I can do in terms of answering your questions.
1) I get alot more keepers. I dont get nearly as many OOF shots or back focus shots as I used to. I also dont know if that is the difference from going from indoor sports to outdoor. But i did notice the couple of hockey games I got with it before the season ended "so sharp it will cut your eyes" my friend says.

I dont usually use, actually have never used the auto exporsure on the camera. I always leave in manual. I am sort of new to photograhpy so I like to mess things up so I learn.

The camera for sports is great, sometimes being able to fire off photos like a machine gun is great. But I dont use it all the time. Like for softball and baseball I will do it once for each new pitcher. And maybe if I am trying to get a certain batter, but otherwise I use the low continuous mode. Besides I am trying to work on my timing for when im all grown up and get some strobes for indoors.

I am not sure why you are thinking about switiching thought, the 1dMKII as you know doesnt come cheap, I had to take the expensive plunge when my 20d had to get serviced and when it gets back I will have to make a decision. Althought the 1dMKII is increadible camera, its heavy as hell ( I had to break down and by a monopod) and isnt really designed for my little hands (which will proably be the case for ANY pro camera) so i get wrist soreness and tendinitis developing in my hands. The 20d IS much smaller and lighter but after seeing the photos the mkII can produce I dont know if I can go back.

mercphoto · April 25, 2005

Need more info

Bodley wrote:

I have been using the 20D/70-200mm f2.8 IS for shooting action sports shots (High School & youth league). My general setup is large JPEG, auto-exposure, Av and center AF point. While I have ~1800 shots posted to my site I have culled many shots and many of the posted shots required a lot of work in PSCS and are not that sharp.

I've read that the 1dMKII is much better for sports. My questions are:

1) What kind of AF difference is there if center point is selected on each?

Dunno. But with the 20D you are better off in AI Servo mode with all points active for sports. Initial focus aquisition on center-point, then follows that subject around the frame to all active focus points. The Mark II will focus faster and better, but you are talking about moving people, not 200mph race cars. The 20D can keep up just fine here.

2) Is the auto-exposure system better on the 1D MKII?

Are you having exposure problems? Which exposure mode are you using? I use the default exposure metering mode.

[/QUOTE]3) What other differences (i know 5fps vs 8.3 fps) should be expected.[/QUOTE]

I sometimes shoot second-camera for a motocross and bicycle photographer. We both use 70-200/2.8, but I use a 20D and he uses a 1D MkII. He is rather happy and impressed with my images and sells about as many of mine as he does of his. In fact, he switched his Mk II from spot metering to evaluative after seeing my shots. The 20D is a rather capable sports camera. But like anything, technique will make a difference.

You mentioned you were in Av mode. But what aperture are you choosing? Are you going full-wide? Are you in AI-Servo focus mode? What ISO? What shutter speeds are you getting? Are your photos not sharp, or are they out of focus instead?

Lastly, are you in large-fine JPG (you mentioned only large), and what processing parameters are you using?

Not enough info to know why your shots need to be Photoshopped.

DoctorIt · April 25, 2005

winger wrote:

I am not sure why you are thinking about switiching thought, the 1dMKII as you know doesnt come cheap, I had to take the expensive plunge when my 20d had to get serviced and when it gets back I will have to make a decision. Althought the 1dMKII is increadible camera, its heavy as hell ( I had to break down and by a monopod) and isnt really designed for my little hands (which will proably be the case for ANY pro camera) so i get wrist soreness and tendinitis developing in my hands. The 20d IS much smaller and lighter but after seeing the photos the mkII can produce I dont know if I can go back.

Whichever way you decide to go, I'll take the unwanted one off your hands

Bodley · April 25, 2005

mercphoto wrote:

Are you having exposure problems? Which exposure mode are you using? I use the default exposure metering mode.

I mainly shoot center weighted ( ) sometimes eval (*) mode.

You mentioned you were in Av mode. But what aperture are you choosing? Are you going full-wide? Are you in AI-Servo focus mode? What ISO? What shutter speeds are you getting? Are your photos not sharp, or are they out of focus instead?

Ai Servo Av from 2.8 to 5.6 depending on light. Generally like to keep shutter speed above 1/1000.
ISO 200, 400 & 800 lowest possible for available light.
Some photos are OOF generally to the back.

Lastly, are you in large-fine JPG (you mentioned only large), and what processing parameters are you using?

Large-Fine

mercphoto · April 25, 2005

Bodley wrote:

I mainly shoot center weighted ( ) sometimes eval (*) mode.

Based on my experience and the feedback I got from the working pro I have done work with, switch to (*) as your metering mode.

Ai Servo Av from 2.8 to 5.6 depending on light. Generally like to keep shutter speed above 1/1000.
ISO 200, 400 & 800 lowest possible for available light.
Some photos are OOF generally to the back.

Back focusing may be the camera failing to keep up with an object fast approaching you. I shoot motorsports in Tv mode, not Av mode. The goal isn't the fastest possible shutter, the goal is to control the amount of motion blur present.

Do you go half-click on the shutter and pause, waiting for the moment, before you take the shot? Or do you just nail the shutter?

Bodley · April 25, 2005

mercphoto wrote:

The goal isn't the fastest possible shutter, the goal is to control the amount of motion blur present.

Thats why I try to keep the shutter speed above 1/1000 is to reduce the possibility of camare shake and to freeze the action (i.e. ball in flight, bat ect...)

Do you go half-click on the shutter and pause, waiting for the moment, before you take the shot? Or do you just nail the shutter?

I use the * button on the back for focus then pick what I think is a good spot for AE and half press the shutter release and prepare to fire. I must admit, I'm still learning and if I "NAILED" the shutter it wouldn't be the first time but I'm trying to press not jab at the button:D

leebase · April 25, 2005

No doubt the 1DMkII is a better camera. At that price, it should be. And no doubt that you'll likely get more consistent sports shots with it.

However, the 20D is not a bad sports camera. You SHOULDN'T have that much trouble getting in focus shots.

Here's what I do:

- Set AF to AI Servo
- AV mode wide open or 1 stop down, ISO so that my shutter speeds are 1/500 or better. Some like a slower shutter speed to allow some motion blur on the ball. If you are struggling with focus issues...go with a higher shutter speed to solve them, before trying slower.
- Half press to focus....keep half pressed as I follow the action and rattle off shots in 2 or 3 shot burst. Pay attention to the focus, and re-half-press if the focus goes awry.

I still get some out of focus shots...but I can usually tell when I've done so when I'm shooting.

Lee

winger · April 26, 2005

DoctorIt wrote:

Whichever way you decide to go, I'll take the unwanted one off your hands

I dunno after seeing that lens at hunts I maybe keeping my 20d too :-P....

I LOVE WIDE!!!!!!!

You around this weekend, big lax game, you wanna play with the big lens with me????

winger · April 26, 2005

leebase wrote:

However, the 20D is not a bad sports camera. You SHOULDN'T have that much trouble getting in focus shots.

Maybe I should of mentioned I shoot alot of hockey and sometimes behind glass without holes......so between the speed and the extra piece of glass in between me i saw a difference in the indoor hockey shoots (at least in focus, and also sharpness). Hockey you have the speed of the game, low light and white ice to compete with. Where as I was perfectly happy with my 20d till it crashed, that is why I bought the mkII.

But if you have little girly hands the mkII is a little big for me, I get hand cramps

ian408 · April 26, 2005

There are a number of ways to set focus on the mkII. For example; I use
"*" for focus and half-shutter for AE. There are also AF 'speeds' that can
be set via custom function. Meaning you can make the lens try and focus
faster or slower. I've not touched that and don't really understand what
it is--does it mean focus is held for more or less time before re-focusing
occurs?

How you set the focus point depends on what you're shooting. I use
Center point most of the time. However, if you were shooting a sport
like bb, you might want a point up from center to get the player's eyes.

I'm also of the evaluative metering camp. Though the mkII allows you to
pick multiple measuring points and average them--don't know if the 20d
does that or not.

You can find sample settings (including downloadable configurations) on
www.siphoto.com.

Ian

Andy · April 26, 2005

ian408 wrote:

You can find sample settings (including downloadable configurations) on
www.siphoto.com.

Ian

interesting link, ian. thanks!

DoctorIt · April 27, 2005

winger wrote:

I dunno after seeing that lens at hunts I maybe keeping my 20d too :-P....

I LOVE WIDE!!!!!!!

You around this weekend, big lax game, you wanna play with the big lens with me????

you just want me for my big lens :cry

ian408 · April 27, 2005

andy wrote:

interesting link, ian. thanks!

it's very interesting to see how SI standardizes settings. The article someone
posted on their work flow for big events makes it clear why standardization is
important.

A reminder that if you find a setup that works for you, save it and transfer the
config to your PC/MAC (does this work for Nikon users too?).

Ian

20D/1d mkII vs Sports

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