Those darn Judges are blind.

Tango · February 25, 2009

Gotcha.

divamum · February 25, 2009

I used to ride the hunter/jumper show circuit. Sometimes you would suck (by your own assessment) and win the class. Other times, you would do what absolutely EVERYBODY around you confirmed was a stunning, polished, even, together round that was WAY better than everybody else (all of who made a mistake) and.... not even place.

The bottom line is this: judging (in hunter classes as in opera, as in photography) is subjective. And it's like ice cream. You can offer that judge a fantastically rich and tasty chocolate, but if they want strawberry, or vanilla, or pistachio, they WILL choose a version of one of those flavours, even if you provided the best chocolate the world has ever known.

I have to say that analogy has stood me in VERY good stead in a competitive career which requires constant auditioning (competition) and highly subjective assessment! I apply the same philosophy to anything competitive that I do, and the challenges are no exception.

To be honest, I'm in this for the fun and the learning rather than the winning - sure, it's nice to get a pat on the back, but just the DOING of it has been far more beneficial to me than anything else!!!!!

Grly · February 25, 2009

I was completely unaware that this was even an issue here! I always felt that everyone was pretty relaxed about these challenges and that's what prompted me to join.

I never felt upset or offended when my photo wasn't chosen as I know that art is completely subjective. I am glad we have such a diverse crowd here and I always look forward to hearing everyone's opinions on all the different types of photography entered in these contests.

Velvet-Art · February 25, 2009

Grly wrote:

I was completely unaware that this was even an issue here! I always felt that everyone was pretty relaxed about these challenges and that's what prompted me to join.

I never felt upset or offended when my photo wasn't chosen as I know that art is completely subjective. I am glad we have such a diverse crowd here and I always look forward to hearing everyone's opinions on all the different types of photography entered in these contests.

When I saw the title of this thread I thought it was a thread bashing the judges on one of the challenges

scratch

As a newbee here I cant say if there is a trend of judge-bashing, but I cant say I've noticed any. (but then I'm not the most observant guy around!!)

I was absolutely amazed to find myself through into the final of the 1st DSS that I entered, and I am very greatful to the judges for putting me through. Also, on the last 2 DSS's I have not got through to the finals, but I dont have any hard feelings toward anyone, least of all the judges. I just take it all in my stride and learn from my mistakes and learn from the great shots of the others.

I think the judges do an amazing job, and one that is very difficult. All power and kudos to the judges, and let's remember that while the judges select the 10-20 shots to go through to the final, it is us the Dgrin members that actually vote and select the winner/ top runners up, so if there is any complaining about a photo not winning the complaints can only be levelled at us the voting members.

Tim

KevXman · February 25, 2009

Aaron, I have noticed this also from time to time and feel bad for the Mods and whomever is judging at that particular time. I agree that everyone needs to take whatever criticisms or compliments they get with a grain of salt. Just do the best that you can and whatever happens happens. Don't get discouraged or frustrated (its never worth the agony), apply any new knowledge to your next image and enjoy yourself. Hopefully, most of us are here to have fun and learn. Winning a challenge is just a by-product of your efforts. Anyone who manages to come up with an image that they think is worthy of entering is already a winner. Sorry for rambling on, just thought that I'd share my reasons for being here.

We now return you to your original program....................

divamum · February 25, 2009

Velvet-Art wrote:

I think the judges do an amazing job, and one that is very difficult. All power and kudos to the judges, and let's remember that while the judges select the 10-20 shots to go through to the final, it is us the Dgrin members that actually vote and select the winner/ top runners up, so if there is any complaining about a photo not winning the complaints can only be levelled at us the voting members.

Tim

Acting as a judge was one of the hardest things I've had to do in a long time. Ultimately, many of the choices came down to an entirely UNrationalised preference for one very good image over another very good image and I felt really bad at having to leave several out of my choices (I was lucky in that my co-judge actually picked a couple of the ones I'd agonized over cutting, so that helped but even so... Guilt, anybdoy?!) Once you have pulled out the images which ALL nail the the theme with technical success, you're back to chocolate vs pistachio iow.... entirely subjective.

I can only reiterate that the warm sense of community here is what has pushed me from snapshooter into photographer. I have a long, LONG way to go, but I know I'm at least on the path. And it is pretty much 100% because of dgrin that I'm walking along it.

lust

The Curious Camel · February 25, 2009

I wasn't aware that people here were doing that at all but I can't always look through all the threads here.

I always liked the phrase he had in is thread failure is feedback.

Everyone here is willing to help so we should all be thankful and appreciative.

Peace always, gail

richtersl · February 25, 2009

divamum wrote:

The bottom line is this: judging (in hunter classes as in opera, as in photography) is subjective. And it's like ice cream. You can offer that judge a fantastically rich and tasty chocolate, but if they want strawberry, or vanilla, or pistachio, they WILL choose a version of one of those flavours, even if you provided the best chocolate the world has ever known.

With regard to judging, no truer words have ever been spoken.

Fortunately, we've not had the clashes with DSS like we had in LPS. I remember one contestant really jumping over Shay about his/her photo not having been chosen for anything during one round. It got pretty ugly, IMO, and I think Shay handled it a lot better than I ever could have. The individual has not been heard from since. It was a nice photo, but not one that really stood out from the rest of the entries.

I see these challenges as a good way to get used to juried exhibitions. My confidence has grown a lot since I started hanging out here and if I don't win an award or get chosen for an exhibit, it's OK -- life goes on. I've definitely seen my share of wonderful photos get chosen and/or win but I've seen my share of WTF's or "who's been sleeping with the judge" too.

richtersl · February 25, 2009

AaronNelson wrote:

... but everyone knows Strawberry is of the heavens:D

I must respectfully disagree because everyone knows -- CHOCOLATE RULES! :poke:eat

AnnasPhotos · February 25, 2009

I didn't know people thought this way. For me, these challenges are a great learning experience and a lot of fun. I don't think there has been one challenge that I haven't learned something new. I chalk it up to this great forum and the great people here.

Have a great day everyone!!

AnnasPhotos · February 25, 2009

richtersl wrote:

I must respectfully disagree because everyone knows -- CHOCOLATE RULES! :poke:eat

I agree with you 1000000000000%

clap

Eia · February 25, 2009

I sure respect the judges! If I ever had to judge I think I think I would be ill! The bottom line for me is learn, learn, learn!:D

divamum · February 25, 2009

AaronNelson wrote:

KevX, can i get your vote for Strawberry?

Rigged! Currying favour! Lobbying!!!! :lol

Be your best friend if you'll buy me some chocolate

:

JAG · February 25, 2009

being in the "judge's shoes" several times myself...I fully understand what they go through and give them kudos for a job well done. That said I also know that it alot of time comes down to subjective which you like better. With the quality of images that are increasing improving each round...it gets tough. There can only be so many and whether I agree with other judges assesments or not....I am genuinly happy for those who made it though! I have learned from these challenges how to be happy with my own work. I was my own worse critique for a long time. But I have learned so much about how to improve...that now I am pleased with my shots and that is what counts the most. I still have lots more to learn...but I thank dgrin for having such a great forum that tells it like it is.

I have been in many 'challenges and competitions" on other forums and won more than i can count. But never have I been on a forum such as this that actually gives you the feedback you need to hear and keep you planted in not only the basics of photography but the 'pulse' of what works and not works in an image. I am so greatful for that. And I have enjoyed the banter and the friendships that I have made here. You all are the bests and kudos to the judges!

KevXman · February 25, 2009

AaronNelson wrote:

KevX, can i get your vote for Strawberry?

Sure, I'm easy. Not cheap, but easy. It'll only cost you a pint of Chunky Monkey. Mmmmmm, vanilla and banana with chunks of chocolat and walnuts, oohhhh, I think I just wet myself.

Huh, what? Oh yeah.

I WANT ME SOME STRAWBERRY ICE CREAM!

How's that?

The Curious Camel · February 25, 2009

I did not volunteer to be a judge because I am not experienced enough and would be terrified to do that. I

to the folks that have done this. I have been trying to comment on photos from each challenge to try and learn what to see and look for and how to interpret it into words. It's still kinda scary but is a part of what I need to learn.

I have only competed in a couple of other contests and challenges. I won a few times but the this place is by far the biggest star. I am also grateful for the friendships.

Your all wrong, vanilla is tops.

Peace, gail

Llywellyn · February 25, 2009

Mint chocolate chip FTW. :food

...I don't have anything more conducive to add. It's all been said.

dnie · February 25, 2009

AnnasPhotos wrote:

I agree with you 1000000000000% clap

me too, Chocolate rules my world.

But for my 2 cents on topic...
I am a newbie here, but the reason I am here is that I want to get better. I hope to learn and be inspired by some of the wonderful work I have seen on here. I want the criticism, though I would love to hear it is great. But in the end, I want the truth. I may or may not agree, but I will learn from it.
I am not so egotistic to assume I would win any challenge, but if I do someday I would count it as one of my accomplishments.

DeuceFour · February 25, 2009

AaronNelson wrote:

theres more to my reasoning of posting this...i asked for suggestions on DSS #19 Feedback thread via PMs, and my eyes were opened of a few things...

1. there is a sub-culture within dgrin with the use of PM's
2. some people are very troubled and frustrated but will not post for help.
3. some people dont like me:D , its ok.. if they really knew me maybe their opinion would change (atleast i like to think that, haha)

so, maybe the links from Shay will help...maybe not....

First I'd like to just say that I love the challenges..Win or Lose.. Picked or Not Picked.... It's free and fun and best of all you can get all the critique and feedback you can handle, if you just ask for it. Another good point that was brought up is that your gonna have so many different people and opinions judging/looking at your photos.

I have sometimes wondered about this forum, if maybe there was a certain group of people "The Veterans" who might be in a little click. Maybe being biased towards one another. But it didnt take very long before I realized how much this place is not like other forums, where people use their post count as a seniority symbol or status symbol. I've yet to come across a thread that was bashing a "newbie" or anything of the sort. This place is a really fair, kind, generous, helpful forum!! I love it here. Besides, you may only have one post but have been a pro photographer your whole life and just found the site, or have thousands of posts and still be brand new to taking pictures.

In the end I guess if I felt like my feelings could get hurt by posting in a contest and not getting picked..I wouldnt do it. But I think we all would love to get better and stronger and more diverse as photographers, so its natural to want to be competitive. No Pain, No gain Right? Haha.

I hope this wasnt a giant ramble..Yikes! Oh and Im gonna have to go with...

VANILLA!!

~Cheers

The Curious Camel · February 25, 2009

I hope this wasnt a giant ramble..
VANILLA!!

~Cheers[/QUOTE]

Yeah, another vote for vanilla.

baldmountain · February 25, 2009

Any time I feel resentful about not making the cut in a challenge I have a surf over to One Exposure, (1x.com), and look around. Then I look back at my own pictures and say, "Bleah, yeah. My images are weak. I have some work to do." The images there are frighteningly good.

BillyTom · February 25, 2009

Only a short comment....there's a fine line between Passion and Competition, just ask yourself if this is a Hobby or Sport, I image for most it's a hobby....at times getting a bit sporty, just remember to stay grounded and have fun!! :ivar

dnie · February 25, 2009

AaronNelson wrote:

i think the best way to get that is starting a thread specific for C&C and fish a little for direction or suggestions...

Yeah. If I can come up with an idea and feel good enough about it for DSS#20 I was going to try that.

doesn't mean I'll know how to fix what is wrong, but I can try.
Scary places those C&C threads. :eek1

Lorri Freedman · February 25, 2009

Shay Stephens's post was really funny! I enjoyed that...

What I like most about these challenges is seeing everybody else's work. Win or lose, it's always interesting. But it's only a natural reaction for everyone to be disappointed when their photo isn't picked. So what do you do about it? You pick up your camera, and you go out, and you take more pictures, and try again! And that's what makes the world go round. Eventually you'll win... maybe.

ic4u · February 25, 2009

If you're only reason to be in it is to win it, then perhaps you're in the wrong place...
if you're in it to learn from it, and you just happen to win it, then you got the best of both worlds, and this is by far the best place to be (IMO)!
What helps me the most, is reading the feedback from those of you who are "seasoned" and feel comfortable in critquing others.
It makes me look at things I may not have noticed on my own. In time I hope to gain the confidence to offer up my opinions more.
I think about where I was last year this time, and I'd be willing to bet my camera was in a corner, desperately wanting to be picked up and used!
This forum has resparked my love for photograpphy, and the on-going themes help me to think more creatively....so a big thank you to dgrin and all who keep it going so smoothly!
I think at some point everyone will experience dissappointment that their image wasn't chosen,
but geez, if you're feeling dissappointed, then you must have felt you did really well with your image, and isn't that a success in it's own?? Just my 2c's...
I love it here, and hope to stick around...as a side note, my son has watched how much fun I'm having and has jumped on the band wagon
( although he's limited to what he can participate in since he's only 13) I can see his passion building, and that is really cool to see!

Oh, and another vote for CHOCOLATE!!! but can we add some peanut butter??!!:D

richtersl · February 26, 2009

dnie wrote:

Scary places those C&C threads. :eek1

Scary? How? I've met some of the nicest, most helpful folks at the C&C threads.

divamum · February 26, 2009

richtersl wrote:

Scary? How? I've met some of the nicest, most helpful folks at the C&C threads.

Is it scary to put yourself out there at first? Yep, it sure is. But it is the ONLY way to improve and grow. Honestly, if I hadn't been encouraged to try posting some stuff for C&C in the challenges I'd still be sitting here wondering how everybody took such great pictures. (and my first attempts were ABSOLUTE RUBBISH and people STILL offered helpful advice!). I still have ABSURD amounts to learn before I feel like I actually know what I'm doing, but I'm enjoying it and growing and improving all the time. Believe me, 6 months agao I was still afraid to shoot raw and if you had said "LAB Curves" or "Muench star effect" to me I'd have sat here shaking my head in total lack of comprehension. Now I use them both regularly

Yes, you may get told the things which are WRONG with your picture... but that's what's RIGHT about C&C!! Corrections are not "failure", they are a gateway to GROWTH and if you want to improve, you couldn't ask for a more talented, supportive and encouraging group of folks to nudge you in the right direction.

Never in my 6+ months of active posting here have I seen anything other than constructive, encouraging criticism. Not one "you suck, go play somewhere else" or "you're not up to our standard". Try it - you may even find you like it!!!!

thumb

dnie · February 26, 2009

richtersl wrote:

Scary? How? I've met some of the nicest, most helpful folks at the C&C threads.

Not terrifying ... I just haven't been here long enough to really know what to expect. It is a little scary when I see the fantastic work on here and think, what am I doing here? Are they gonna laugh at me?

But yes, everyone has been very nice and friendly and I like that it seems like a nice little neighborhood.

Trevlan · February 27, 2009

dnie wrote:

Not terrifying ... I just haven't been here long enough to really know what to expect. It is a little scary when I see the fantastic work on here and think, what am I doing here? Are they gonna laugh at me?

But yes, everyone has been very nice and friendly and I like that it seems like a nice little neighborhood.

Donna, when I first joined this forum, I thought to myself,"This will be a great place to learn and share my work." Then I saw the quality of the photographs on this site, and said to myself, "I'm never going to be able to take a photograph like that."

It was about 3 months before I posted my first picture. I didn't start doing the challenges until recently. Do I feel my work has improved so much that it stands a chance in this competition? LoL. Far from it. But if you don't get the courage to post, you'll never know what's wrong with your picture. I've since, added a few shots to the whipping post, mini and DSS challenges. Have I won anything? Everytime someone says yay or nay. You never loose, infact, you win just by posting.

Some people are not satisfied with that. They feel they have to be in first place in order to win. That's what happens when you get to that level of photography. When you expect to win. I expect to loose, so if I'm an HM or place in the top 5, it's a great surprise to me.

My last feeble attempt, was an attempt to paint with light, the shape of my car.

On my monitor it looked great. Composition was, as best as I could have imagined it. But Diva said all she saw was black and a few lights. She really had to concentrate to see what it really was. I went back and saw it with this crappy laptop monitor, and it didn't have the same impact as on my adjusted 52" monitor at home. I'm not going to quit. Right back, I'm jumping in on #20. Do I feel I can win, No. Why bother? Because one day, I will produce and incredible photograph.

This is a hobby for me, a full time job for some, but I love it. I wish I could kiss Citigroup's servers goodbye and do this full time. Not practical at the time, but soon enough. ;-)

Every picture that was entered was my favorite. I actually loved one over all, which was 'I was wrong' but that's because of my rebelious and twisted humor nature.

I just rambled. Wow. Great job everyone!

dnie · February 27, 2009

Trevlan wrote:

Every picture that was entered was my favorite. I actually loved one over all, which was 'I was wrong' but that's because of my rebelious and twisted humor nature.

I loved that one of yours also. It made you think and I like that.
Thanks for the ramble...
I have always been a pretty shy person and had a hard time walking into a group of people I didn't know. About 2 years ago I got really sick, fought my way out of that hospital and am just waiting for a transplant.... so I can't work. Photography is what has kept me from doing the poor pitiful me, and in the process I have made alot of new freinds and joined different things that I never would have before. Funny how something so bad can be so good for you in another way.

I did post one of those "make ya think" kind of pictures on here (http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=122297) if you would like to see it. Keep in mind the theme I was going for. I have had a wide range of reaction to this one. Now, I am off to enter the finished work in the show.

Benjer · February 27, 2009

Trevlan wrote:

I'm not going to quit. Right back, I'm jumping in on #20. Do I feel I can win, No. Why bother? Because one day, I will produce an incredible photograph.

I've been absent from the forum for a few weeks, and coming back to read this thread has been very encouraging to me. I'll just share a few things, and try to keep it brief, in the hope that it helps somebody somehow.

Having had the honor of winning a mini-challenge a while back, and the responsibility of judging the following round, I can say that winning isn't everything and judging is very hard work! In fact, I almost feel that winning a round kind of made me think I could rest on my laurels a bit, instead of trying harder as I had done before. At the same time I was growing frustrated with my slow progress and the thought that the best I could do was still not good enough.

Constantly comparing my images to those of so many talented photographers here made me feel I had little of value to add to the collective body of work. It got to where I became more and more reluctant to try. It was completely in my head, I realize, but the feeling that I had to create a winner with every shot began to hinder rather than inspire me. I passed up so many "good" opportunities because I knew they weren't "great."

I'm starting to understand now that we learn so much more from our failures than from our successes (which would make me a master scholar by now!), and the point of "bothering" (as Trevlan said) with doing work that may be less than great now is that it's the only path to making really great work in the future. The hardest part for me is applying what I've learned from past mistakes to the next shot. Like, for example, forgetting to adjust my white balance, or reset from B&W back to color!

I've grown more here from criticism of my work than from praise. And I'm grateful that so many talented and experienced folks take the time to pass on their knowledge and suggestions - and always with kindness and encouragement. Even newbies needn't be afraid to share opinions - because photographs can be viewed by people from all experience levels and all walks of life, not just pros, and we can learn a lot from each other by offering our thoughts on what we see (or don't see). I know I've posted some pretty lame comments myself (in retrospect), but critiques have always been received with grace and humility, even when I've been off. I learned a lot from that too. Articulating critiques of another's work really helps develop a more critical eye for one's own.

Well so much for "brief" - sorry for rambling! Thanks again everyone for a thoughtful discussion and inspiring me to get off my butt and just do it (apologies to Nike). This is about having fun, honing our skills, and sharing our vision with others. I think that's really cool!

Those darn Judges are blind.

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