Fortunately, we've not had the clashes with DSS like we had in LPS. I remember one contestant really jumping over Shay about his/her photo not having been chosen for anything during one round. It got pretty ugly, IMO,
I think part of the reason for the fact that clashes like this are less common is that prizes are no longer part of the equation. The LPS was probably a great marketing tool, and I am sure it brought people out of the woodwork and onto the boards.
However, to be fair to the critic of Shay (I don't remember this particular critic, but I remember the type of incident) there were instances of stuff being selected that was, by any sort of measure, pure dreck.
Let me be very clear about this. It's easy for a criticism of what the judges have chosen to be taken as sour grapes. It is also true that, within reason, any judging of artistic creations is necessarily subjective. But this subjectivity has limits. For example, I really don't care for an enormous number of the shots that get entered into contests on Dgrin because, in general, I don't care for sentimentality in art. As I have said countless times before, Kids and puppies aren't my thing.
But maybe they are your thing. The prevailing aesthetic here on Dgrin is not in agreement with me. I won't get into this subject, but I have a lot to say on it. A lot to say that would be both pointless and irritating for most readers. Suffice it to say that this is within the realm of reasonable aesthetic difference. If the kid shot is good. If it sucks, then, well, it sucks.
During the LPS it wasn't so much the fact that I didn't get selected (I did a few times) but that it was very clear that by no reasonable application of subjective standards could a vast amount of the stuff that was selected be considered good, or even interesting.
One shot in particular sticks in my mind: A dude had taken a shot of a neon sign. It was dead center in the frame. The horizon was slightly off (not enough to be deliberate, but enough to show that the dude had'nt bothered to do any post processing at all. Perhaps he hadn't even closely examined the photo he submitted). A tiny flare of light from another neon sign intruded into the bottom right corner of the frame. There were a lot of awesome pics that round- pics that people had put a lot of hard work into, and a lot of thought. This was a snapshot. I dont mind getting beaten, but I do mind getting beaten by thoughtless nonsense.
It was a snapshot by any standard, subjective or otherwise, and it won. In the LPS, a great number of people entered shots like this (anyone else remember the shot of dirt) and a scandalously high number of them met with success. To the point where respectable contributors began to look askance at the whole process.
It's a bad idea to mix in lucre with art- particularly on a site like this. I like the challenges because when an interesting topic rolls around (like High Key/Low Key) It can prod me to stretch and that's cool. The contests before the LPS were cool, the contests now are good too. It's back to the normal.
I'm always on the fence about how to critique people in these sorts of threads and in these sorts of contests. Dgrin has a delicate ecology- it composed of a mix of professional level people, rank amatuers (like myself) and total noobs. Yet the level of jackassery is so low as to be all but nnexistent. Where else can I get free training from a dude like Nikolai, without the almost obligatory bucket of pretentious excreta that would accompany it anywhere else? One of the reasons I really disliked the LPS was that I thought it woudl threaten that balance (I think I was wrong about that).
Yet we are here to learn, and to discuss, and to talk abut something that I think we all care veyr much about. So it's bound to get heated.
I can't speak to the previous challenges since I wasn't here, so I'll leave that part of the discussion to others. But on the subject of feedback...
I'm always on the fence about how to critique people in these sorts of threads and in these sorts of contests. Dgrin has a delicate ecology- it composed of a mix of professional level people, rank amatuers (like myself) and total noobs.
I teach voice, and thus a lot of my time is spent giving feedback - both positive and negative - in regard to one of the MOST personal of all the artistic forms because the instrument IS the person (imagine being born with a very complicated camera permanently attached as a part of your body that you don't know how to use, can't upgrade, and can only develop and try to modify without any instruction manual ... while trying to take pictures at the same time )
I subscribe to the definition of "critical" not as "negative" but as "analytical" (as in "a critical essay"). What I have found for myself (and subsequently tend to pass on to others) is that ANY comment - good or bad - can be positive and constructive if it comes with clear suggestions for how to fix the problem. So if somebody says to me "your skin tones look way off to me" that's not as helpful as "your colour balance is off and on my calibrated monitor there's way too much red so your skin tones are funky" (particularly if that then comes with detailed suggestions of which functions in CS3 to use to correct it ).
Speaking for myself, this willingness of dgrinners to teach through the C&C threads is WHY posting for feedback (in the challenges and elsewhere on the site) has been such an amazingly growth-filled and helpful experience. People have not only told me what is WRONG with a shot, but have given me wonderful alternative suggestions to try. Some of those I've liked, some of them haven't appealed to me, but even the ones that DIDN'T directly solve a problem for me often prompted me to think sideways and come up with a different solution so those were just as much a help in the end.
I dunno - perhaps it's because I teach and face this all the time that I feel passionately about learning both to give AND TAKE constructive criticism. "Darling you're wonderful" comments do NOTHING to spur further growth and excellence. A nice ego boost for sure, but... there is ALWAYS something that can be learned by noticing the things that could be changed for next time.
Thus, for me: Criticism is NOT failure. It's growth. I've lived by that idea as a singer and a teacher , and see no reason to modify my point of view as a photographer.
Sorry this has moved slightly tangentiallly off topic, but this is a about which I'm passionate!
I can't speak to the previous challenges since I wasn't here, so I'll leave that part of the discussion to others. But on the subject of feedback...
I teach voice, and thus a lot of my time is spent giving feedback - both positive and negative - in regard to one of the MOST personal of all the artistic forms because the instrument IS the person (imagine being born with a very complicated camera permanently attached as a part of your body that you don't know how to use, can't upgrade, and can only develop and try to modify without any instruction manual ... while trying to take pictures at the same time )
I subscribe to the definition of "critical" not as "negative" but as "analytical" (as in "a critical essay"). What I have found for myself (and subsequently tend to pass on to others) is that ANY comment - good or bad - can be positive and constructive if it comes with clear suggestions for how to fix the problem. So if somebody says to me "your skin tones look way off to me" that's not as helpful as "your colour balance is off and on my calibrated monitor there's way too much red so your skin tones are funky" (particularly if that then comes with detailed suggestions of which functions in CS3 to use to correct it ).
Speaking for myself, this willingness of dgrinners to teach through the C&C threads is WHY posting for feedback (in the challenges and elsewhere on the site) has been such an amazingly growth-filled and helpful experience. People have not only told me what is WRONG with a shot, but have given me wonderful alternative suggestions to try. Some of those I've liked, some of them haven't appealed to me, but even the ones that DIDN'T directly solve a problem for me often prompted me to think sideways and come up with a different solution so those were just as much a help in the end.
I dunno - perhaps it's because I teach and face this all the time that I feel passionately about learning both to give AND TAKE constructive criticism. "Darling you're wonderful" comments do NOTHING to spur further growth and excellence. A nice ego boost for sure, but... there is ALWAYS something that can be learned by noticing the things that could be changed for next time.
Thus, for me: Criticism is NOT failure. It's growth. I've lived by that idea as a singer and a teacher , and see no reason to modify my point of view as a photographer.
Sorry this has moved slightly tangentiallly off topic, but this is a about which I'm passionate!
DivaMum:
I loved reading about you as how it relates to the feedback and failure for photography. I hope there are many more of us out there that read this. It' is beautiful and for you to share a slice of your life in order to help others understand that part of the challenges which challenge our egos? It is a real blessing to us all. Thank you.
First off let me say that it is Chocolate covered Strawberries on Vanilla Ice Cream.
Or just Choc Chip cookie dough ice cream by itself or with Strawberries
OK I think I covered all bases there.:ivar
I have enjoyed the competitions I have participated in, it is interesting to sees how others look at things differently. You learn a lot from looking at things critically.
It helps you improve your craft when you are out shooting and you run through checks and balances of composition that you have seen and thought about.
I find this fun I love competing and the feedback. Does it bother me when things dont go my way? Of course I am human. But I let the politics of human nature go, it is not worth the stress.
Sit back, observe, participate, live life and keep pressing the shutter
Comments
I think part of the reason for the fact that clashes like this are less common is that prizes are no longer part of the equation. The LPS was probably a great marketing tool, and I am sure it brought people out of the woodwork and onto the boards.
However, to be fair to the critic of Shay (I don't remember this particular critic, but I remember the type of incident) there were instances of stuff being selected that was, by any sort of measure, pure dreck.
Let me be very clear about this. It's easy for a criticism of what the judges have chosen to be taken as sour grapes. It is also true that, within reason, any judging of artistic creations is necessarily subjective. But this subjectivity has limits. For example, I really don't care for an enormous number of the shots that get entered into contests on Dgrin because, in general, I don't care for sentimentality in art. As I have said countless times before, Kids and puppies aren't my thing.
But maybe they are your thing. The prevailing aesthetic here on Dgrin is not in agreement with me. I won't get into this subject, but I have a lot to say on it. A lot to say that would be both pointless and irritating for most readers. Suffice it to say that this is within the realm of reasonable aesthetic difference. If the kid shot is good. If it sucks, then, well, it sucks.
During the LPS it wasn't so much the fact that I didn't get selected (I did a few times) but that it was very clear that by no reasonable application of subjective standards could a vast amount of the stuff that was selected be considered good, or even interesting.
One shot in particular sticks in my mind: A dude had taken a shot of a neon sign. It was dead center in the frame. The horizon was slightly off (not enough to be deliberate, but enough to show that the dude had'nt bothered to do any post processing at all. Perhaps he hadn't even closely examined the photo he submitted). A tiny flare of light from another neon sign intruded into the bottom right corner of the frame. There were a lot of awesome pics that round- pics that people had put a lot of hard work into, and a lot of thought. This was a snapshot. I dont mind getting beaten, but I do mind getting beaten by thoughtless nonsense.
It was a snapshot by any standard, subjective or otherwise, and it won. In the LPS, a great number of people entered shots like this (anyone else remember the shot of dirt) and a scandalously high number of them met with success. To the point where respectable contributors began to look askance at the whole process.
It's a bad idea to mix in lucre with art- particularly on a site like this. I like the challenges because when an interesting topic rolls around (like High Key/Low Key) It can prod me to stretch and that's cool. The contests before the LPS were cool, the contests now are good too. It's back to the normal.
I'm always on the fence about how to critique people in these sorts of threads and in these sorts of contests. Dgrin has a delicate ecology- it composed of a mix of professional level people, rank amatuers (like myself) and total noobs. Yet the level of jackassery is so low as to be all but nnexistent. Where else can I get free training from a dude like Nikolai, without the almost obligatory bucket of pretentious excreta that would accompany it anywhere else? One of the reasons I really disliked the LPS was that I thought it woudl threaten that balance (I think I was wrong about that).
Yet we are here to learn, and to discuss, and to talk abut something that I think we all care veyr much about. So it's bound to get heated.
Bring on the Kids and Puppies![PHP][/PHP]
Thoughtful and thought-provoking post. Thanks!
I can't speak to the previous challenges since I wasn't here, so I'll leave that part of the discussion to others. But on the subject of feedback...
I teach voice, and thus a lot of my time is spent giving feedback - both positive and negative - in regard to one of the MOST personal of all the artistic forms because the instrument IS the person (imagine being born with a very complicated camera permanently attached as a part of your body that you don't know how to use, can't upgrade, and can only develop and try to modify without any instruction manual ... while trying to take pictures at the same time
I subscribe to the definition of "critical" not as "negative" but as "analytical" (as in "a critical essay"). What I have found for myself (and subsequently tend to pass on to others) is that ANY comment - good or bad - can be positive and constructive if it comes with clear suggestions for how to fix the problem. So if somebody says to me "your skin tones look way off to me" that's not as helpful as "your colour balance is off and on my calibrated monitor there's way too much red so your skin tones are funky" (particularly if that then comes with detailed suggestions of which functions in CS3 to use to correct it
Speaking for myself, this willingness of dgrinners to teach through the C&C threads is WHY posting for feedback (in the challenges and elsewhere on the site) has been such an amazingly growth-filled and helpful experience. People have not only told me what is WRONG with a shot, but have given me wonderful alternative suggestions to try. Some of those I've liked, some of them haven't appealed to me, but even the ones that DIDN'T directly solve a problem for me often prompted me to think sideways and come up with a different solution so those were just as much a help in the end.
I dunno - perhaps it's because I teach and face this all the time that I feel passionately about learning both to give AND TAKE constructive criticism. "Darling you're wonderful" comments do NOTHING to spur further growth and excellence. A nice ego boost for sure, but... there is ALWAYS something that can be learned by noticing the things that could be changed for next time.
Thus, for me: Criticism is NOT failure. It's growth. I've lived by that idea as a singer and a teacher , and see no reason to modify my point of view as a photographer.
Sorry this has moved slightly tangentiallly off topic, but this is a about which I'm passionate!
DivaMum:
I loved reading about you as how it relates to the feedback and failure for photography. I hope there are many more of us out there that read this. It' is beautiful and for you to share a slice of your life in order to help others understand that part of the challenges which challenge our egos? It is a real blessing to us all. Thank you.
Peace always, gail:D
Or just Choc Chip cookie dough ice cream by itself or with Strawberries
OK I think I covered all bases there.:ivar
I have enjoyed the competitions I have participated in, it is interesting to sees how others look at things differently. You learn a lot from looking at things critically.
It helps you improve your craft when you are out shooting and you run through checks and balances of composition that you have seen and thought about.
I find this fun I love competing and the feedback. Does it bother me when things dont go my way? Of course I am human. But I let the politics of human nature go, it is not worth the stress.
Sit back, observe, participate, live life and keep pressing the shutter
http://kadvantage.smugmug.com/