The perfect rugged standard DSLR?

LizardRanch · July 21, 2008

I'm in a buying dilemma, searching for the "perfect" camera, so far it doesn't seem to exist but maybe I can get some advice on this forum to help me decide. I'm looking of a DSLR or DSLR-ish type camera. So far I've had a Nikon 990, Olympus 5050 and now a Canon A640. From my film days, I really miss having a decent peice of glass and good viewfinder. If the Olympus 5050 had changeable lens I'd still be using it.

I've been taking pictures most of my life. Nowadays it is mostly scenic and travel photos. As I said, nothing seems to be right for me, but a few that "kinda" fit are:
Pentax K200d
Olympus E-3
Fujifilm S9100 (not really a DSLR, but nice configuration)

Money is no object (well almost no object), but I am kind of stuck on having a few key features, some of which you might be able to convince me I really don't need or can deal with. Of course the camera has to take good pictures, but I'm not a professional and slideshows and 11x14 prints are as fancy as I go. I'd like a single decent lens, when I'm out traveling and scrambling I'm not hauling the bag of lenses about, 24mm or less (lots of pictures inside canyons), telephoto not really necessary Some features that matter to me (in order) are :

1. Adjustable Live view LCD screen - I'm into taking the unusual shots, on the floor, overhead...You just can't get that with your head stuck in the viewfinder. I take 90% of my shots through the viewfinder, but its always the funky unusual shot that everyone likes. The Pentax would have been my choice except it doesn't have a live view screen. What's up with that?

2. Standard Batteries - AA are the standard, of course. Why doesn't everyone use them, and I don't mean in their add on battery packs (more crap to haul)? I travel all sorts of funky places, sometimes I don't see an outlet for a while. All my other travel accessories are AA. Why carry around two chargers? If it wasn't for the proprietary battery, the E-3 would be for me (ever try to buy a replacement BRM-2200a.4 type A6 model 22 or similar proprietary battery in Honduras?). My other cameras all take AA. Am I being paranoid about the life expectancy of a charge. Would you trust taking two batteries (one in camera, one spare) on a three week Grand Canyon trip? Can you buy reliable high quality third party spares? Where?

3. Compact and/or rugged - I like to sling my camera under my armpit or back and go climbing for that great vantage point. I don't stop taking pictures when it starts raining or when the dust flies. Some cameras like the Pentax and Olympus say they are "weatherproof" or "splashproof". Has anyone really ever tested this? Has anyone actually sat in the pouring rain with their new E-3? Is this hype or does it really work (within reason)?

Are there any cameras you might know of that would fit the bill? If push comes to shove right now I'd probably opt for the Olympus E-3. I don't HAVE to buy one right now, one thing I was wondering is if some of these companies might be anouncing the new models, maybe at a convention coming up, that I should wait for. Maybe Olympus will see the error of their ways and stuff AA in their E-3, maybe Pentax will come to their senses and add a moveable live view LCD to their K200d. Should I wait? How long?

Thanks for the help.

Miguel Delinquento · July 21, 2008

A lot for one camera
Seems like you are desiring a lot of mutually incompatible features in a single camera. Which makes me think you should do a bit more homework about the bridge camera and DSLR markets.
1. I don't agree with your reasoning about viewfinder limitations. Live view is a nicety but not a requirement for taking great shots. I've been taking unusual shots for 40 years using a good old viewfinder. Perhaps a LCD-driven bridge camera would serve you better.
Of the newer technologies incorporated into cameras, image stabilization I think is more important. Both Pentax and Olympus have it built into the bodies which works well for me.
2. My last Pentax DSLR used AA batteries and I liked them for all the reasons you listed. But at a certain level of functionality, a camera (especially one incorporating the live view you desire) requires more juice provided by a proprietary battery. I purchased two extra ones and it's not an issue. Some cameras, like my Pentax K10D, use more generic proprietary batteries--I can use Konica Minolta branded ones at 25% of the cost of the Pentax branded ones. I get more shots out of the proprietary batteries too.
3. Weatherproofness is a great feature. I live in the Pacific Northwest and have shot lots in the rain with the K10D that has similar qualities as the newer K200D. The key is whether the lenses are weatherproof. Pentax has a few weathersealed lenses that function fine. Regarding your needs, when I climb or do a strenuous hike I keep my camera in my sling bag. I tend to need to keep both hands camera free on a tough hike. Fortunately when I stop and shoot, access into a sling bag is very easy and quick. If you like to have your camera always exposed for total instant access, then a bridge camera or a P&S may serve you best. Most DSLRs aren't compact, especially if they have to incorporate weathersealing technology.

To me the key aspects of a camera are the ergonomics and menu interface design that you will be interacting with for a fair chunk of your life. They all take great pictures and the lens quality from all makes is quite good at the baseline. I would go to a few shops and feel and play with all the cameras.

New cameras are always coming out. And technology from upstream models gets pushed downward with successive releases. Just like with computers, if you can wait go ahead, but realize that means with you will be without a camera--which is the whole idea.

M

swintonphoto · July 21, 2008

Olympus E-3 gets my vote. The Zuiko Olympus lenses are amazing. It is feature packed, indestructible, and extremely comfortable to hold. The E-520 is also fabulous in a smaller lighter body - more fits your desire for compact. The batteries in the Olympus DSLRs are known for their long-lasting performance. I bought a few extras on ebay and I rarely need to use more than one in an entire wedding.

omnicloud · July 22, 2008

I'd say the Pentax K20D would be a good upgrade from the K200D which you list which is around the $1000-1100 price range, not counting the several rebates floating around. It's pretty rugged and has live view (albeit admittedly lousy functionality associated with the live view but sufficient for the odd shot). There's been one test (that I know of) that tests the K10D, which has the same body, for it's weathersealing. It involves running it under a high pressure tap for awhile. It works perfectly. Sorry, but I forgot where to find it. I believe it was on the DPReview.com forums. A similar test was done to the Samsung GX-10 (exactly the same but in Samsung brand flavour): here. Same verdict. Those are abnormal conditions, but at least someone else tested it. But it really is a testament that it's not just artifical marketing. This is the real whipped cream.

It has all the resolution you'd ever need and has some other tidbits thrown in like shake reduction (IS/VR etc.), and cockamamie anti-dust. It's not K200D cheap, but it's also not as expensive as the E-3.

LizardRanch · July 22, 2008

All good points, still undecided...
I'm really glad to hear that the weatherproof function on these cameras really does seem to work. I'm not going to intentionally wet them down, but it is a big plus for me.

I'm getting a little less picky about the battery, but I still like my stash of AA. Whenever I have to use my OptioW30 for water type shots I have to not only make sure I've got the batteries charged but also bring another charger and cord...all which are larger than the darn camera.

Which brings me to the subject of size. I just saw a picture of the E-3 in the hands of a Japanese woman. It looked like she was carrying around a bowling ball ! This may be OK for wedding photographers, but probably won't work if slinging it under your arm and chimneying up a slot canyon. Ok, I have to let you know that I've not ever even had any of these in my hand. Why? Well I guess I feel bad walking into my local camera shop, looking at the camera, walking out and buying it online. Now I don't feel so bad looking at these at big box retailers though. Where can I see these cameras at someplace like Walmart or Best Buy? Walmart carries Olympus and Pentax but their website says they aren't carried in stores.

The live view I'm guessing I really need though. Although no one except E-3 has an articulated LCD. What's the sense in having an LCD that is not articulated? I guess it works for the occasional macro shot, but still won't work for the waist level shot, or worse yet for the self portrait.

Tell me more about "bridge" cameras. I'm assuming a bridge is something like the S9100, it offers advanced features but not changeable lenses. I already have a nice Canon A640 which has a lot of nice features for the size (including custom WB and underwater housing for scuba pics). Is this more of what you are talking about a bridge camera?

I really need to get out and get some of these in my hands so if any of you know a big box (or even local that sells at a decent price) in the Salt Lake City, Utah area let me know.

Thanks again

LizardRanch · July 22, 2008

swintonphoto wrote:

..... The E-520 is also fabulous in a smaller lighter body - more fits your desire for compact. ...

Yes, I was looking at the E-520. I've found reviews of the E-510, but none for the E-520. Have you seen any good reviews on this ? What's the difference between the two?

Miguel Delinquento · July 22, 2008

This is what I've done: I've checked out DSLRs at the few remaining independent camera shops in my area. When my purchase decision is final, I ask them to sell it to me for the same price as the online vendor. I sometimes carry a printout, but the decision should be a no-brainer for them. I'd rather keep a customer than lose one.
That way your self-perceived guilt is lessened if you have to order online.
If you cannot find one in a store (and Pentax and Olympus' retail dealer networks are much smaller), I would have zero problems ordering a few models online and returning the ones that aren't the keeper. The shipping may cost you a bit, but that's insignificant for the value of the exercise.

LizardRanch wrote:

[deleted]
Ok, I have to let you know that I've not ever even had any of these in my hand. Why? Well I guess I feel bad walking into my local camera shop, looking at the camera, walking out and buying it online.
[deleted]

Tell me more about "bridge" cameras. I'm assuming a bridge is something like the S9100, it offers advanced features but not changeable lenses. I already have a nice Canon A640 which has a lot of nice features for the size (including custom WB and underwater housing for scuba pics). Is this more of what you are talking about a bridge camera?

Thanks again

Yep. The Canon G9 is a good example of a bridge camera; quite a few of my pro friends have purchased them and like 'em.

M

swintonphoto · July 22, 2008

LizardRanch wrote:

Yes, I was looking at the E-520. I've found reviews of the E-510, but none for the E-520. Have you seen any good reviews on this ? What's the difference between the two?

I have the E-510, and have not used the E-520 because it is brand new. That is why there won't be reviews yet - it's just out of the shoot.
However, the changes as far as I have read include the following:
-A 2.7 inch screen (510 has a 2.5 inch)
-Second autofocus mode in live preview including face detection (510 only has 1 autofocus mode in live preview, now the 520 has 2 modes)
-Improved dynamic range (Though I have never really had problems with this on my E-510 - the 520 is supposed to be even better on dynamic range, similar to the E3)
-3.5 frames per second (3.0 frames per second on the E-510).

The E-510 got a "Highly Recommended" rating from DPReview. So, I imagine the E-520 will get great ratings as well.

These are the major upgrades as far as I can see. So, not really major, but some good improvements. I am extremely satisfied with my E-510. I love its size - very comfortable and light. It is significantly smaller than the E-3 but has nearly as many features.

LizardRanch · July 22, 2008

Question on 510/520

swintonphoto wrote:

I have the E-510, and have not used the E-520 because it is brand new. ...

So I don't find anyplace in the reviews about the water/dust proofness of the E-510/520. This uses the same Zuiko 14-42 lens, which is weatherprooof, true? Is the camera weatherproof or do I only get that with the E-3?

NikonsandVstroms · July 22, 2008

LizardRanch wrote:

So I don't find anyplace in the reviews about the water/dust proofness of the E-510/520. This uses the same Zuiko 14-42 lens, which is weatherprooof, true? Is the camera weatherproof or do I only get that with the E-3?

I just picked up the 420 and while it and the 520 feel very solid it's not weatherproof. The E3 is your best bet for a solid camera, if you haven't tried one out Its incredibly sturdy and very well sealed (from reviews I've read the sealing is a lot better than Nikons or canons of similar prices). I don't have any experience with Pentax, and as for the Fujifilm S9100 my only experience is indirect with a friend of mine who bought one and was not too pleased within two months was asking for a advice on a SLR to replace it.

swintonphoto · July 22, 2008

LizardRanch wrote:

So I don't find anyplace in the reviews about the water/dust proofness of the E-510/520. This uses the same Zuiko 14-42 lens, which is weatherprooof, true? Is the camera weatherproof or do I only get that with the E-3?

The E-520 is not weather sealed. However, I recently returned from a 2 week trip to England and it got plenty wet and functioned fine. The E-3 is fully weather sealed (REALLY REALLY weather sealed). The 14-42 kit lens is not weatherproofed. The standard Zuiko zooms that are weather sealed are:
14-54mm 2.8-3.5 ($400) - I have this one - it's fabulous - one of the kit lens options with the E-3.
12-60mm 2.8-4.0 ($800) - Also one of the kit lens options with the E-3
14-35mm 2.0 ($2000)

ziggy53 · July 22, 2008

swintonphoto wrote:

... 14-35mm 2.0 ($2000)

Oh baby.

swintonphoto · July 23, 2008

ziggy53 wrote:

Oh baby.

No kidding! That 14-35mm 2.8 SWD lens would be my first purchase if I was rich

Cheekygeek · July 28, 2008

Another vote for the Pentax K20D
If money is truly no object for you, just buy a fullframe Nikon D3 and call it a day.
You specified rugged and live view. That basically puts you in Canon 40D, Nikon D300, and Pentax K20D land. I just ordered a Pentax K200D because money IS an object for me, but in researching the two Pentax cameras I came away with a LOT of reasons to choose them over the competition. Throw the Canon XSi in there, if you don't mind cameras that feel like plastic toys. But you specified rugged...

If rugged is your game, you'll like the heft of the stainless steel chassis. Ergonomics sounded important to you and the Pentax K20D has that in spades. The TWO adjustment wheels let you change shutter speed and aperture without taking your eye off the viewfinder. The real bonuses on the Pentax for me were: Body-based shake reduction plus the ability to use any K-mount lens back to the early 80's (and get the shake reduction!) rather than be forced to purchase it over and over again with each IS lens. The jury is still out on which is "better" but if they are even CLOSE to the same, I can tell you which one is going to work with more lenses and be easier on the pocketbook.

The weather-resistance/dust-resistance is another biggie for me.

The problem with going to stores and looking at Pentax is, salepeople aren't going to look stupid and good luck finding one who knows squat about the Pentax. Store salesmen will almost universally steer customers to Nikon/Canon because they haven't taken the time to learn anything about Pentax.

I think the K200D is the no-brainer winner in the entry level category, but I could care less about live view. For a true pentaprism (bright viewfinder), best ergonomics, in-body shake reduction, build quality, image quality, lens selection (including vintage glass) and weather-proofing plus live view, I'd be ordering the K20D. I haven't heard of ANYBODY who regretted the decision to buy a K20D yet. Read the reader reviews on Amazon. In fact, if you look at the LENS ALONE right now, scroll down and Amazon has the lens + K20D combo priced at $1,124.90. Thats $125 less than the kit is selling for from Amazon!?! (lens reviews). Odds are you'll have 300-400 bucks in your pocket over a comparable deal on the 40D or D300 (and have a kit lens you don't have to be embarrassed over).

LizardRanch · July 29, 2008

Cheekygeek wrote:

If money is truly no object for you, just buy a fullframe Nikon D3 and call it a day.
You specified rugged and live view. That basically puts you in Canon 40D, Nikon D300, and Pentax K20D land. I just ordered a Pentax K200D because money IS an object for me ...

If rugged is your game, you'll like the heft of the stainless steel chassis....

The weather-resistance/dust-resistance is another biggie for me....

Cheeky,

Pentax drives me NUTS. They put half the features I'm looking for in one camera (AA batteries) and the other feature (live view) in another. If they would have just done both in one camera, and with the weather resistance, this would have been the PERFECT camera (ok, they could have an articulated screen, then it would be perfect). The K20D is still on the top of my list, but damn why didn't they use AA? I understand all the advantages of proprietary lithium ion batteries, but a dead battery in a digital camera means no pictures period. How would you like it if you had a flat tire and the only spare you could get would be to send away to the manufacturer. I'd rather get my spares from the street vendors if it came to that. AA is the ONLY flexible option, IMHO. They even brag on it in advertisements I've seen, if the camera companies really feel this is a nice feature why don't they extend that to their other models? I notice many of the extra battery grips use AA, why is that?

After looking at a few at the local mega furniture store (a great place to shop, I can play all I want and the salemen don't bug me, I hate talking to salemen, I want to play with the cameras in peace), I decided that what I REALLY want is Lightweight, Small and Water resistant. Rugged to me means that it won't break, get dust and sand in it, won't die if rained on, dropped on the floor, smacked up against a rock, etc. I don't really care if it "feels" rugged, plastic is OK with me, you don't see many steel kayaks, they are all plastic, there's a reason for that.

Everything seems so huge, even a smaller camera like the Sony Alpha 300 seems really inconvienient to hang around your neck for a 10 mile hike and climb, let alone sling under your armpit for navigating tough areas. I'm of the opinion that if it is too inconvienient then you will hesitate to take your camera at certain times, and that's the time when the perfect shot appears. Rugged again means "doesn't break", weight and size are actually liabilities for me.

I'm thinking twice about the Olympus E-520 now. Seems like a good smaller camera. I'm going to have to hit up a dealer though as I can't find Olympus in big box retailers and I really need to see how small and easy to handle it is. The Olympus E-3 seems like a great camera too, but I'm already guessing this is going to be way too bulky, once I can find one in a store I'll be able to tell.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-10. Anyone have anything good to say about it? Articulating LCD with a nice manual live view focus.

swintonphoto · July 29, 2008

LizardRanch wrote:

I'm thinking twice about the Olympus E-520 now. Seems like a good smaller camera. I'm going to have to hit up a dealer though as I can't find Olympus in big box retailers and I really need to see how small and easy to handle it is. The Olympus E-3 seems like a great camera too, but I'm already guessing this is going to be way too bulky, once I can find one in a store I'll be able to tell.

Panasonic Lumix DMC-10. Anyone have anything good to say about it? Articulating LCD with a nice manual live view focus.

As mentioned before - I have the E-510 and am extremely happy with it. I have read that the E-520 is even better, so I think that would be a great option. I have spent a month traveling this summer with my E-510 around my neck and think it is a wonderful balance of size - not too big and not too small.

I have never used the Panasonic, but it too looks like a great camera.

This site has good info on both of them: http://www.four-thirds.org

gembobs · July 29, 2008

Rugged to me means that it won't break, get dust and sand in it, won't die if rained on, dropped on the floor, smacked up against a rock, etc.

I doubt very much that an entry level DSLR or bridge camera will survive all that without any damage!

The pro bodies may take some of the knocks, but you have decided you want lightweight.

I know you haven't mentioned this camera, and I am not sure this is quite what your after as it appears to be a straight forward point and shoot, but the Olympus MJU 1030 SW does seem to be rugged under your definition - ie shockproof to 6ft and waterproof to 33 ft! I haven't seen it in person, but I think I read quite a decent review of it a few weeks ago.
http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/cpg_digital_sw.asp

I hope that helps you somewhat, and I appologise if I have confused you more!

Gem

TonyL · July 30, 2008

LizardRanch wrote:

swintonphoto wrote:

..... The E-520 is also fabulous in a smaller lighter body - more fits your desire for compact. ...

Yes, I was looking at the E-520. I've found reviews of the E-510, but none for the E-520. Have you seen any good reviews on this ? What's the difference between the two?

Improved dynamic range.
I have the E-500, and was going for the 520 but am saving some dough for the E-3...thing is a tank!
Size comparison 510 and 520 are identical:

The perfect rugged standard DSLR?

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