Question for Canon 20D Owners...

Nee7x7

I finally broke down and bought a dslr after much debate...I got the Canon Digital Rebel XT because reviews seemed to rate it's photo quality about equal to the 20D for a much lower price, (plus the much smaller size was appealing to me!) but after having it about a week, I'm not so sure if I'll keep it or not. The kit lens isn't very good (none of my pics have come out very sharp with it) and there are some quirky things about the camera I'm not too crazy about.

With the XT, you have to half press the shutter in order to make any changes to your shutter or aperture settings. Is this "feature" the same for the 20D? The menu for making changes on the XT only stays *active* for 3 seconds after you half press the shutter and if you don't make all your changes in that short time, you have to half press the shutter again!!! Really eats up time here as you search for the right buttons to press or turn!

Also, getting around the "custom" features on the menu is time consuming and they're not as "custom" as one would hope. Each custom setting only has a couple possible options (on or off usually). Only the first one has different parameters, but they mainly concern the usage of certain buttons for certain functions. The flash defaults to 1/60th of a second, so you have to half press the shutter to adjust that setting if you're in anything but the Shutter Preferred (TV) or Full Manual settings.

I've been testing a used 75-300 USM IS lens with the XT, and I'm getting super nice, super clear and sharp pics with it, so I know it's the kit lens that has a problem. I've also been finding the auto focus points don't really grab focus that well (I think they're confused, LOL!) so I've had to go to only one focus point or use manual to get things in focus. Is it the same with the 20D?

Auto focus is important to me because I have that old age syndrome...things close up (as in the viewfinder) just aren't that clear for me, even when I have the diopter set at the optimum setting for my eyes. The XT has a pretty small viewfinder, so I'm thinking the 20D will help me with focusing because of it's much larger one.

I'm just not keen on spending more money and lugging around more weight unless the 20D really outperforms the XT as far as ease of use is concerned.

Anyhow, I appreciate any help and suggestions you might have!
Thanks in Advance,
~Nee

DavidTO

First off, I had a friend with the original Rebel, who got a bum lens. His was terribly soft, and mine was fine. See this thread here. Read all the way through until you see me eat my words.

Second, yes, the pushing the shutter half-way is required on the 20D, but the controls are much mo better. Easier to use. Better built in every way.

Andy

not totally true...

DavidTO wrote:

Second, yes, the pushing the shutter half-way is required on the 20D, but the controls are much mo better. Easier to use. Better built in every way.

actually, in av (aperture) or tv (shutter priority) modes, you needn't 1/2press to change the settings... can do with out half pressing.

david's way right on the rest of his statement - the ergs on the 20d rawk....

Ric Grupe

Links...
Phil Askey has the answers!

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos350d/

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/

DavidTO

andy wrote:

actually, in av (aperture) or tv (shutter priority) modes, you needn't 1/2press to change the settings... can do with out half pressing.

david's way right on the rest of his statement - the ergs on the 20d rawk....

It's been a while, but isn't that true of the Rebel, too? I thought that I was answering that where the Rebel needs it, the 20D needs it, but maybe I've lost some gray matter...

mercphoto

DavidTO wrote:

It's been a while, but isn't that true of the Rebel, too? I thought that I was answering that where the Rebel needs it, the 20D needs it, but maybe I've lost some gray matter...

On a 20D, and in Av or Tv mode, as Andy points you, you can change the shutter or aperture w/o half-clicking. However, if you want to change the EC you need to be half-clicked.

I'm not sure if the original post was talking about changing EC or not, or if they were in a creative mode or in a basic mode. It was unclear to me.

leebase

It is likely true that the photo quality between the XT and the 20D just as the 300D was to the 10D. It is NOT true that it's "just as good" a camera. I started with the 300D so I can sympathize with some of your complaints (we actually had more).

The kit lens isn't so bad stopped down. I was going to lecture you on post processing...but if you are getting sharp photos from the other lens, well....

The 20D has a second dial so no "combo presses" needed. It's AF is better and there are more AF points....and a slightly larger brighter eye piece.

If the kit lens isn't doing it for you...check out the Tamron 17-35 f2.8/4 or the Sigma 18-50 f2.8 -- very nice glass for significantly less than the excellent Canon 17-40L

Lee

leebase

mercphoto wrote:

On a 20D, and in Av or Tv mode, as Andy points you, you can change the shutter or aperture w/o half-clicking. However, if you want to change the EC you need to be half-clicked.

Right...but that's not nearly as annoying as trying to shoot manual with only one dial and a press-twist for the second dial.

At least you don't have to half press and HOLD in order to move the EC.

Lee

Shay Stephens

What's everyone talkning about having to half press to change the shutter or aperture on the 20D? If you are in manual mode and have the dial turned on, you just spin the right dial (top dial for shutter speed, back dial for aperture).

The only time I have had to half press to do anything was for EV compensation in the auto or semi-auto modes

Ric Grupe

My experience with...

leebase wrote:

If the kit lens isn't doing it for you...check out the Tamron 17-35 f2.8/4 or the Sigma 18-50 f2.8 -- very nice glass for significantly less than the excellent Canon 17-40L

Lee

...the EFS 17-85 IS is very favorable. I have read many mixed reviews on this lens, but I think some folks wouldn't be happy...no matter! Much better IMO than the 10D + 28-135 IS combo I had.

Nee7x7

Thanks, Guys!
I reread the reviews on Dpreview to compare the features (operations) of the 20D and XT side by side, and the main differences I found were that the 20D uses a spin dial and a main dial which would appear to work much quicker than what the XT has. We seem to have mixed results as to whether a half shutter press must be done on the 20D in order to change shutter and aperture settings in full manual...but it may be that it can be accomplished with or without a half shutter press (the half press would be needed to switch between playback mode and shooting mode for either camera, or to change the EC, but that's not what I'm talking about here...)

Leebase, are you referring to the XT with the press/twist or another camera? The XT does need a button pressed in (AV+-) and the main dial on top to be turned at the same time in order to set the Aperture Value in Full Manual as well as to change the "EC", (or EV), which is a hassle to do (forces you to look at the back of the camera to accomplish this because the AV button and Drive Mode button are the same size and right next to each other).

I'm glad you all didn't lecture me, ! Actually, I've tried the kit lens at several aperture settings because I wanted to make sure it wasn't because of being wide open or stopped down all the way (btw, it does very poorly at both extremes!). I also made sure the shutter speed was high enough to rule out camera shake. Once I realized there was a problem, I went back to the store where I bought it to test it to see if the camera also had a problem or if it was just the lens. (The camera worked fine with other lenses!) I also visited the Canon Rebel forum on Dpreview to see if others were having similar problems, and found that some of the other XT owners were also experiencing lack of sharp focus with their kit lenses. However, some folks were getting quite good results, so apparantly some of the lenses are good, some are not.

Anyhow, I'm still unsure of what to do. Money wise, the XT is a bargain and allows me to get more extra lenses to start off with. But that bargain comes with a price (as in ease of use)! We just paid a big hunk of change to good old Uncle Sam, (Our yearly taxes that go to our Federal and State funds for those of you who hail from other countries) so our cash flow is a bit low right now. Otherwise, the decision would be a lot easier!

PS. Will the 20D kit lens be a disappointment, as well? Will I still need to buy another all around (standard) lens for it? I only want to start off with 3 lenses...a standard (similar to the kit) lens, a tele-zoom (already buying one) and a macro (have a 50mm used one already on my radar screen). Anybody have better suggestions than these 3 for a start up set? (keep in mind the need to keep costs down, so L lenses are not an option just yet!)

Thanks!!!
~Nee

ChrisJ

Nee7x7 wrote:

PS. Will the 20D kit lens be a disappointment, as well? Will I still need to buy another all around (standard) lens for it?

You don't have to buy the kit; I just bought the 20D body and a seperate lens of my choice (EF-S 17-85mm). The kit may seem like a good deal, but if you're not going to like the lens, you aren't really saving any money. My lens isn't "L" quality, but I'm pretty happy with it, and I could afford it! :

Chris

Nee7x7

Thanks, Chris~

95Mcaj wrote:

You don't have to buy the kit; I just bought the 20D body and a seperate lens of my choice (EF-S 17-85mm). The kit may seem like a good deal, but if you're not going to like the lens, you aren't really saving any money. My lens isn't "L" quality, but I'm pretty happy with it, and I could afford it! :

Chris

I was planning to get the EF-S 17-85 USM IS lens as part of a kit with either the 20D or XT (you get $100 off the price of the lens if you buy it as a combo with the 20D). There's also a $100 rebate on the 20D right now, making the deal even sweeter. But the camera store doesn't have the 17-85 in stock right now, so I have to wait a little longer to resolve the situation...

Cheers,
~Nee

leebase

Nee7x7 wrote:

Leebase, are you referring to the XT with the press/twist or another camera?

Both the Rebel and the XT have only 1 main dial. Since changing aperature and shutter are NORMAL things to do...it only makes sense that there should be 2 such dials.

Then again, the target market of the Rebel series are amatuers...users of the idiot modes far more than manual. If you have the camera in either shutter or aperture priority mode, the one dial is just fine. It's mostly a pain when shooting in manual and desiring to control both the aperture and shutter.

On neither the 20D nor the Rebel series is there a dial just for exposure compensation. If I'm shooting aperture priority mode, and I want to keep the shutter open a little longer, I would dial in some negative EC. This is done by first half pressing the shutter, then twisting the dial that would OTHERWISE be changing the aperature.



Lee

ubergeek

Original DRebel vs. XT
I currently use the original Digital Rebel. I don't have my XT yet (have one on order), so I can't yet confirm anything, but I would expect aperture value or shutter value (in Av or Tv mode, respectively) or EC to be adjustable without half-pressing the shutter. It isn't necessary to do so on the original, so I can't imagine why they would add such an interface faux pas to the XT.

Settings such as ISO and WB, though, appear to have changed: they used to be set by holding down a button and rotating the dial; now it appears that they are set through the menu. I think I'd rather have the old way, but I expect that I'll get used to it (obviously those settings don't change much from one shot to the next).

As for the kit lens, it won't win any awards for sharpness wide open, but it does well enough stopped down. I don't have anything wider at the moment, so I pretty much use it only for landscapes, which are generally shot at small apertures anyway. But if you feel that yours is overly soft, you may, as others have suggested, have a bad copy.

By the way, when it comes to lenses, I used to think I'd use a zoom most often. (I have one--the Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8--which is quite good, especially considering the price.) But as it turns out, it's almost always the 50mm f/1.4 or the 28mm f/1.8. These lenses are priced at $330, $300 and $390 respectively, although if you're not in a hurry, you can sometimes find an excellent deal on a used copy (I obtained the 28mm for around $200, through what I'm sure was a pricing mishap).

I'm looking forward to shooting with my new XT. If Dell delays my order, and you decide that the 20D is more your thing, and your XT is black, perhaps I'll buy yours.

Cheers,
Jeremy

Nee7x7

Here's the latest...
Well...I returned the XT with the funky kit lens and we drove 45 miles to the "big city" (Fresno, CA...!) where there's a Boots camera store which has a lot more selection than our little ma and pa (actually bro and sis) camera store in town on Main Street. They had the 20D body, 20D with cheap kit lens and the XT in the same configurations, except they also had the XT in a deluxe kit with the 17-85mm IS USM lens. It took a little bit of debate but in the end, I opted for the XT with the better lens. Price, weight and better kit lens choice were the final deciding factors (plus my hubby whining about the money I was spending helped nudge me in that direction, !).

Neither store had the 17-85mm lens in stock as a seperate purchase, and I didn't really want to wait another week or so (I'd already been waiting nearly 2 weeks for the lens!) so I went with what was available. Better to have a bird in the hand than hope for one to show up when it was already so late in coming! Besides, I saved $200 buying it in a kit than if I bought it seperately.

Getting the less expensive camera allowed me to add some other nice goodies to my bag, so (hopefully) I'm going to be a fairly happy camper for the most part. I figured I can find ways to work around some of the issues I had as far as the auto focus and menu niggles. And I'm guessing that in a couple years down the road, (maybe less), I'll most likely be in the market for an upgraded camera body anyhow, and then I'll have the XT as a backup.

Thanks again for all your very good advice!

Cheers,
~Nee