Fudging the Vote Count?

jeffmeyers

Forgive me if these questions have been asked before. I see that there's a related discussion in the "disqualified" thread right now.

So here are my questions: what controls are there in place to make sure that no voting fraud takes place in the DSS challenges? Since the prize is fairly substantial, the temptation to create false DGrin accounts for voting purposes seems to be pretty strong.

Again, perhaps this has been dealt with and I missed the thread.

I did a little experiment yesterday.

GREENSQUARED, please delete two of the votes for my image in the Primary/Pastel challenge. Both votes were cast by me using two anonymous email addresses I created for the purpose of registering a new DGrin account and casting a vote. One was FotoForce and the other BunnyCapture (I think). My only purpose in doing this was to see if these votes would be recorded. I didn't do it to pad my votes because I really didn't have any stake in this DSS challenge--I'm already in the Mega challenge this quarter. But it was really easy to do.

I'm not exactly sure how you can avoid this without scrutinizing every DGrin account when a vote is cast.

Seems to me like there ought to be some set of minimum requirements.

- No one should be allowed to vote for 3 or 6 months after joining DGrin?

- No one without a gallery in SmugMug should be allowed to vote?

- Some other way of qualifying DGrin accounts for voting?

I really don't know exactly what controls need to be in place, but something probably needs to be done. Otherwise, we can get our friends and family to join DGrin and immediately vote for our images. Or like I did, the contestant him/herself can create new email addresses in gmail or yahoo or wherever, join DGrin, and vote for his or her own photos. Right?

Am I being too paranoid? I really enjoy these challenges. I'd hate to see them corrupted so easily with fake votes.

We might hope that everyone would be honest, but the truth is that even good people can be tempted when something worthwhile is at stake. The quarterly MEGA prize is big and the recognition for winning can be a strong enticement to fudge.

Thanks for considering this. I'll probably be away from my computer and not able to interact with the responses until this evening. I hope I did't cause too much trouble! :uhoh

Tango

this has been discussed allot in the past.
i have been thinking about all the variables that have been brought up by mods, and members etc...

the only solution i could come upwith is a watchdog group of sort with necessary viewing. im sure there are varibles to that, but i wanted to bring it up incase it was a good idea........no more no less

richtersl

There was a HUGE to do regarding this at the end of the LPS finals last year and I mean HUGE. Here's the thread: http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=85283&highlight=Final

Andy had to get involved because the DGrin gurus noticed something fishy happening on account of a sudden rise in membership with a noticeable number of "new" members casting votes. He was furious.

Apparently there are ways to check and DGrin is on top of it.

Tango

jeff read this thread, there is alot of info here for your thoughts
http://dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=83660&highlight=ethical

BeemerChef

Sad!!!

eoren1

Jeff and Aaron raise some good points.
With the addition of prizes and a 'mega' round, there is now a tangible reward for entering and succeeding in these contests. That has definitely served to increase the number and quality of entries. However, with prizes at stake and in a contest open to voting by the public, there will always be concerns about the voting process.
I think that putting the common sense rules that Emily stated in her 'disqualification' thread into the official rules thread will help immensely. I don't think anyone is out there trying to accrue new members and push up the vote counts with any ill intentions. It's just the nature of a contest - you get sucked in and tell your friends and colleagues that you've made it pretty far in a photo contest. Those friends' next step is to vote for the person rather than the image.
Putting a statement such as this one from Emily:
"As far as voting is concerned, don't solicit votes, don't campaign for votes and in future rounds, please acknowledge the proper etiquette of not voting for yourself."
Will go a long way in setting a level field of play.
Just my humble opinion. Hope this comes off in the colleagial tone it is intended.
E

divamum

I don't know the background software which runs this forum, but surely poll voters are identifiable to the mods/owner - if any voters are noticeably recent, perhaps those should be manually disqualified? Or, perhaps even take it one step further: could voting be restricted (either automatically or manually, if that's not too much work) to those who have been a member for 2 weeks or longer (that would ensure that those who are genuinely new wouldn't be disq'd for more than one round, but people couldn't inflate votes with pseudoidentities).

And can I just say here (since I haven't found a better place to say it yet!) that this forum is, IMO, one of the very BEST of the best on the web. I am daily astounded at the generosity, wealth of knowledge and warm community spirit roun' these here parts and (as well as the extraordinary images which are posted!) As those of us who have been around the net a while know, that is NOT always the case (especially in competitive fields like this one!)

Thanks to whoever started this place, and the folks who keep it running smoothly. I'm very happy to have found it!

Tango

good points all!

+1 Eoren,

heck just pointing it out in the "read me page" the fact that doctorit and greensqd have the eyes to see what is happening i would think it would deter anyone from doing what has been discussed.

VelvtRide

Just a thought but perhaps an 'approval' process would be necessary now that the site is getting larger and because of the contests?

I'd volunteer to moderate new accounts signups, if that helps. This is done at advrider.com to keep the riff raff down.

BeemerChef

VelvtRide wrote:

Just a thought but perhaps an 'approval' process would be necessary now that the site is getting larger and because of the contests?

I'd volunteer to moderate new accounts signups, if that helps. This is done at advrider.com to keep the riff raff down.

Riff Raff? on advrider?... Oh! my God... I had no clue... :hide

VelvtRide

BeemerChef wrote:

Riff Raff? on advrider?... Oh! my God... I had no clue... :hide

Greensquared

jeffmeyers wrote:

Forgive me if these questions have been asked before. I see that there's a related discussion in the "disqualified" thread right now.

So here are my questions: what controls are there in place to make sure that no voting fraud takes place in the DSS challenges? Since the prize is fairly substantial, the temptation to create false DGrin accounts for voting purposes seems to be pretty strong.

Again, perhaps this has been dealt with and I missed the thread.

I did a little experiment yesterday.

Jeff, and anyone else paying attention, I am respectfully asking you to NOT try this experiment again. You could have just asked. Intentionally fudging results just to see if it can be done and then asking us to put in more work for it to be corrected is, in my opinion, less than honorable.

DoctorIt

There are lots of comments and questions above... let me make it clear:

1. yes, sure we can see everything about who's voting (email addy, reg time, location, ip address, etc), but it still requires a fair bit of our volunteer time to go in and check them all. There is obviously no automatic algorithm to detect "improper" voting, no LED that lights up on my screen saying that 3 of jeff's votes came from the same IP address. Frankly, it's not worth it.

2. Everyone needs to remember the last rule. If it comes to it, we'll cancel the challenges. We don't need to do this for you. As soon as it becomes more chore than "fun" to keep tabs on childish and selfish behavior, we pull the plug.

It's that simple.

jeffmeyers

I just read my previous "apology" post and there's a bit too much self-justification in it. So I'll come clean. My "experiment" was boneheaded and stupid. I'm old enough to know better. I have no excuse. I apologize to the whole list and ask your forgiveness.

Bodwick

VelvtRide wrote:

Just a thought but perhaps an 'approval' process would be necessary now that the site is getting larger and because of the contests?

I'd volunteer to moderate new accounts signups, if that helps. This is done at advrider.com to keep the riff raff down.

As part of the 1% advrider members who are Riff Raff subscribed I'll call for more members rather than less via Rally Pan Am... Supporters are required every year...(I'll add that the Riff Raff are not taking new members at the moment, sorry but check back Oct/Dec)

Robbie Gordon showing his support on his Hummer, Atar 2007 ...

NeilL

DoctorIt wrote:

There are lots of comments and questions above... let me make it clear:

1. yes, sure we can see everything about who's voting (email addy, reg time, location, ip address, etc), but it still requires a fair bit of our volunteer time to go in and check them all. There is obviously no automatic algorithm to detect "improper" voting, no LED that lights up on my screen saying that 3 of jeff's votes came from the same IP address. Frankly, it's not worth it.

2. Everyone needs to remember the last rule. If it comes to it, we'll cancel the challenges. We don't need to do this for you. As soon as it becomes more chore than "fun" to keep tabs on childish and selfish behavior, we pull the plug.

It's that simple.

Why threats????? WHY

Neil

DoctorIt

NeilL wrote:

Why threats????? WHY

Neil

Ah, italic, underline, bold, and 7 smileys? Touche!

Andy

NeilL wrote:

Why threats????? WHY

Neil

Because no matter what we do, or how hard we try, there are people who will undermine the effort, that's why. Emily is a Mom, Photographer, and volunteer on Dgrin to do these challenges.

If it becomes un-Fun for her (and the rest of us) to do these Challenges, we just won't do it, period. I'll find other ways to bring more involvement to Dgrin, that don't involve childish behavior.

richtersl

NeilL wrote:

Why threats????? WHY

Neil

If folks weren't undermining the effort, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Members shouldn't be trying to buck the system in the first place.

eoren1

I really think that, after we finish the first Mega round, most of these concerns will die down. At best/worst, padding votes will help someone get into a mega challenge round. However, with the brilliant change from the LPS of now having 5 judges decide on that round's winner, there is no room for campaigning or self-voting in that 'all-important' round. I'm hoping we can all keep our focus on producing some great shots for DSS M1 and DSS round 6. Can't wait to see what people turn out with these concurrent rounds!!!
E

NeilL

DoctorIt wrote:

Ah, italic, underline, bold, and 7 smileys? Touche!

DrIT !!

I wouldn't want to LOSE them by not using them as they were intended, since you gave them to us... if you get my meaning?

Thanks for your pics of the Red Centre, enjoyed them much! Try to get down to Melbourne if you can and if good dining and nearly two hundred years of fine architecture interest you.

Neil

NeilL

Andy wrote:

Because no matter what we do, or how hard we try, there are people who will undermine the effort, that's why. Emily is a Mom, Photographer, and volunteer on Dgrin to do these challenges.

If it becomes un-Fun for her (and the rest of us) to do these Challenges, we just won't do it, period. I'll find other ways to bring more involvement to Dgrin, that don't involve childish behavior.

Yes. Very worthy. I support you!

Neil

NeilL

richtersl wrote:

If folks weren't undermining the effort, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. Members shouldn't be trying to buck the system in the first place.

I guess I was reacting to what struck me as a lowering of tone - threats...

Neil

NeilL

eoren1 wrote:

I really think that, after we finish the first Mega round, most of these concerns will die down. At best/worst, padding votes will help someone get into a mega challenge round. However, with the brilliant change from the LPS of now having 5 judges decide on that round's winner, there is no room for campaigning or self-voting in that 'all-important' round. I'm hoping we can all keep our focus on producing some great shots for DSS M1 and DSS round 6. Can't wait to see what people turn out with these concurrent rounds!!!
E

Nice point, eoren.

Like you I'm looking forward to a very exciting challenge round. I am so inspired by what folks do here.

Neil

Greensquared

eoren1 wrote:

I really think that, after we finish the first Mega round, most of these concerns will die down. At best/worst, padding votes will help someone get into a mega challenge round. However, with the brilliant change from the LPS of now having 5 judges decide on that round's winner, there is no room for campaigning or self-voting in that 'all-important' round. I'm hoping we can all keep our focus on producing some great shots for DSS M1 and DSS round 6. Can't wait to see what people turn out with these concurrent rounds!!!
E

Yes, I intentionally wanted a panel of non-involved, respected people for the Mega-Challenges specifically for this reason. And if the public vote issues continue, then I can always change the qualifying round top 5 to be determined by myself and the previous challenge winner only. It would certainly be less work. I'd like to keep everyone else involved here though.

Let's move forward now. I'm really excited to see what these rounds bring...but since I set all the themes, I can't WAIT to see what you do with Round 7! Oh, and 8, 9 and 10 will blow your mind too!!!