How to get Lightroom to update CNX edited version

f-rider

I've been using Nikon's Capture NX 1.x, upgrading to CNX2 and would like my edited NEF to show up in the Lightroom thumbnail. Is there a command, or method to do this, without re-importing the edited NEF file?

TIA

--Doug

jfriend

f-rider wrote:

I've been using Nikon's Capture NX 1.x, upgrading to CNX2 and would like my edited NEF to show up in the Lightroom thumbnail. Is there a command, or method to do this, without re-importing the edited NEF file?

TIA

--Doug

As best I know, Lightroom does not read the editing information that CNX puts in the NEF, so the only way to get those CNX edits to show in Lightroom is to save as a separate TIFF or JPEG and import that into Lightroom.

This, in my opinion is the problem with these tools today. If you use a stand-alone RAW editor that isn't also a DAM program, then the only way to see your edits anywhere else is to save everything out to duplicate JPEG or TIFF files. And similarly, the only efficient way to use a DAM program like Lightroom is to also use it's RAW editor so that you can see/organize your RAW files without having to make JPEGs/TIFFs from them all. There is no efficient way to mix and match.

arodney

jfriend wrote:

This, in my opinion is the problem with these tools today. If you use a stand-alone RAW editor that isn't also a DAM program, then the only way to see your edits anywhere else is to save everything out to duplicate JPEG or TIFF files. And similarly, the only efficient way to use a DAM program like Lightroom is to also use it's RAW editor so that you can see/organize your RAW files without having to make JPEGs/TIFFs from them all. There is no efficient way to mix and match.

All Raw processors are using proprietary processing, we'll never see that change. But for that matter, the curves in say Photoshop are not like the curves in any other image editing product. If you want to process an image in product A, its very unlikely the same edits, unless burned INTO the pixels will be the same in product B. So render the image and move on.

At least Adobe Raw converters (ACR and LR) share the same processing.

f-rider

arodney wrote:

All Raw processors are using proprietary processing, we'll never see that change. But for that matter, the curves in say Photoshop are not like the curves in any other image editing product. If you want to process an image in product A, its very unlikely the same edits, unless burned INTO the pixels will be the same in product B. So render the image and move on.

At least Adobe Raw converters (ACR and LR) share the same processing.

It is my humble understanding that the embedded jpg is use for all previews. What I am wondering is if it is possible to make the edits in CNX, then have the thumbnail image, which I understand to be based upon the embedded jpg, rendered, with the changes made. Nikon's View NX, Camera Bits Photo Mechanic and other DAM programs seem to handle this. I'm just wondering if there is a way to do it with the Adobe programs. This is not so that I can print an image edited in CNX via Lightroom, but just so I can see my catalog of images with the edits, crops, etc. that I make in CNX.... in Lightroom. The embedded jpg is great for this, works well with the other programs, seems straightforward enough.... maybe a "render" button or an "update embedded jpg" button.

arodney

f-rider wrote:

It is my humble understanding that the embedded jpg is use for all previews.

Used by who? In Lightroom, it builds its own previews and builds a file of them to use.

f-rider

arodney wrote:

Used by who? In Lightroom, it builds its own previews and builds a file of them to use.

Again, as I understand it, when any camera takes a raw image, it is capturing data. The "brains" of the camera, using whatever Mfg algorithms, internal software, etc., then produce an "embedded jpg." This is done quickly enough that the say, Nikon internal processing engine, displays that "embedded jpg" on the LCD screen of the camera. This "embedded jpg" is then used later, as well, when we upload our memory card to the computer before we even get to Lightroom, Capture NX, whatever. Windows/ Mac OS will use this "embedded jpg" for OS commands such as "view thumbnail" and the like. Now I might be wrong in the above, I ain't no programmer. Just a simple guy trying to take some photos.

Now, we choose our weapon of choice, be it Lightroom or CNX and select a folder of NEFs to import into either the catalog or the CNX Browser. If the latter, we make our selections from the CNX browser, make our edits, crop, etc. and in CNX can simply "save" what we've done and CNX writes a file describing the edits. It then "rebuilds" the jpg it first used (which I am assuming to be the "embedded jpg") and updates that jpg using the CNX edit list and displays said jpg with all edits in its browser or in Nikon ViewNX. From the Capture NX browser we can then export/ convert the CNX edited NEF, either singly or batch, and have our way with it, e.g. printing.

If we bring it into Lightroom, I interpret your comment to say that Lightroom builds its own jpg from the NEF raw file and does not use the "embedded jpg".... n'est pas? Therefore, edits done in any other program, such as Capture NX, do not affect this LR jpg which, it would seem, is a kind of proprietary jpg and is tied to the edits done in LR and LR only. Am I on track? I'm just trying to proceed logically to understand this and, again, am not a programmer or a teacher of Adobe programs. I understand that they can't do it all for every third party program. This is not a thread of "suggested improvements for LR3." I'm just trying to see if LR does-- or does not-- use the CNX edited jpg or if there is an a command to do so, other than using CNX, saving out a TIFF, re-importing another copy of that edited NEF/now TIFF back into LR. That is what jfriend suggests is the only way to do it and I'm gathering that he is right. That's a rather tedious process, IMHO. If that's how it's gonna work,... cool. OK by me, I'll just limp along without Lightroom and I am absolutely certain, absolutely, that Adobe won't notice...

arodney

f-rider wrote:

Again, as I understand it, when any camera takes a raw image, it is capturing data. The "brains" of the camera, using whatever Mfg algorithms, internal software, etc., then produce an "embedded jpg." This is done quickly enough that the say, Nikon internal processing engine, displays that "embedded jpg" on the LCD screen of the camera. This "embedded jpg" is then used later, as well, when we upload our memory card to the computer before we even get to Lightroom, Capture NX, whatever.

its a small, low rez preview, its not used by many Raw converters expect for a few seconds upon import, then they build their own previews based on a default rendering. Most don't store the newer preview in that Raw (its a no-no to edit a Raw document). Certainly Adobe products don't touch the camera original Raw. They store the preview they generate in a separate file OR if you convert to DNG, then its fair game to embed this into that container. IOW, this embedded JPEG in the Raw is pretty useless.

Now, we choose our weapon of choice, be it Lightroom or CNX and select a folder of NEFs to import into either the catalog or the CNX Browser. If the latter, we make our selections from the CNX browser, make our edits, crop, etc. and in CNX can simply "save" what we've done and CNX writes a file describing the edits.

But where? LR and ACR do the same, they save this info, but they do NOT save it in the Raw! In LR, the thumbnails are saved in the Previews.lrdata file.

If we bring it into Lightroom, I interpret your comment to say that Lightroom builds its own jpg from the NEF raw file and does not use the "embedded jpg".... n'est pas?

Correct.

Therefore, edits done in any other program, such as Capture NX, do not affect this LR jpg which, it would seem, is a kind of proprietary jpg and is tied to the edits done in LR and LR only.

All Raw rendering is proprietary. So you can't edit either the Raw/preview/thumbnail in C1 and have Bibble or NX or LR see this unless they are writing this small, pretty useless JPEG into the Raw (which again is not good). They might see an embedded JPEG if it's in a DNG and that product supports DNG.

I'm just trying to see if LR does-- or does not-- use the CNX edited jpg or if there is an a command to do so, other than using CNX, saving out a TIFF, re-importing another copy of that edited NEF/now TIFF back into LR.

IF your product actually builds a new JPEG in the Raw, LR would use it temporarily and then it would build its own and you'd lose that preview. And it doesn't matter because that converter can't automatically set itself to reproduce that rendering anyway. As soon as you move from one Raw converter to another companies, you draw a line in the sand and dismiss anything done prior (unless you render a pixel based image). Raw converters are basically metadata editors. You're building a set of instructions using proprietary processing that tells the converter what you'd like a rendered (full color, pixel based image) to look like. Only at that point can you take that pixel based image into say Photoshop, or Painter or some other pixel editor and see a matching color appearance.

jfriend

arodney wrote:

its a small, low rez preview, its not used by many Raw converters expect for a few seconds upon import, then they build their own previews based on a default rendering. Most don't store the newer preview in that Raw (its a no-no to edit a Raw document).

Andrew, it's clear to me that LR doesn't cooperate to solve the problem that Doug is describing. I'm not sure you understand what he is asking.

There are people in this world who like other RAW converters more than they like the ACR engine in Lightroom. Doug has expressed that he likes Capture NX from Nikon. That particular RAW converter does update the JPEG preview image in the NEF RAW file after adjusting RAW settings. So, Doug was wondering if it was possible to use Capture NX for his RAW editing, then use Lightroom for DAM organizing. For that to work effectively, Lightroom would need to NOT make it's own proprietary preview, but just use the one in the RAW file and then just let Doug use LR just for organizing.

It is clear to me that LR is an all or nothing proposition. You cannot effectively use it with a different RAW processor so you cannot use just the DAM capabilities in LR while using some other RAW processor. There are very inefficient ways to do so by rendering all your edited RAW files to TIFF or JPEG before LR ever sees them, but that's so inefficient that it likely defeats the whole purpose of trying to use LR in the first place.

Doug, there are many other DAM tools that don't even try to be a RAW processor or are explicitly designed to work with other RAW processors. In that mode, these other RAW processors do often use the preview in the RAW file as their means of showing you the image they are managing for you. Photo Mechanic, iView Media Pro, ACDSee are the ones I've heard of, but I'm sure there are others too. It seems to me that you should explore those and give up on LR unless/until you get interested in using it as your RAW processor also.

arodney

jfriend wrote:

There are people in this world who like other RAW converters more than they like the ACR engine in Lightroom.

Then they should use those converters! That's how C1, Bibble, Raw Converter etc have customers.

So, Doug was wondering if it was possible to use Capture NX for his RAW editing, then use Lightroom for DAM organizing.

He could for the Raws if all he wanted to do was "find them" but not process them and of course he could for rendered images. But its a bit like buying Photoshop only to use Bridge.

For that to work effectively, Lightroom would need to NOT make it's own proprietary preview, but just use the one in the RAW file and then just let Doug use LR just for organizing.

That's not how it works (nor most other converters). So game over.

It is clear to me that LR is an all or nothing proposition. You cannot effectively use it with a different RAW processor so you cannot use just the DAM capabilities in LR while using some other RAW processor.

Sure you can. But its not a very effective game plan.

f-rider

arodney wrote:

So game over.

That was the purpose of my post,... to find out if there was a way to do this. As arod says, game over. I'm evaluating Photo Mechanic which may soon have a "catalog" feature in addition to its photo browser features so that may be the way I go.

FWIW, I remain a big fan of Adobe products. As a user of Adobe Illustrator since the 'Illustrator 88' days, InDesign and PS Elements, I know what a great software design team they have. And Lightroom2, with its new non-destructive adjustment brush, is approaching the intuitive design brought to the table by Nik Software. They may soon crush any competition.

With CNX, PM or others, I will limp along. Thanks for your insights, gents.
--Doug

f-rider

New Game Plan
FWIW, I've found that I can get Expression Media (IView Media) to refresh and update the thumbnail in its catalog after edits done in Capture NX.x with a simple menu command, or keyboard shortcut. Seems so intuitive to me and can't help but wonder why other software apps don't do this as well. Having a thumbnail of the edits done in any program seems to be the point of a visual database such as Lightroom, IDImager, others. But, hey, that's just me.

f-rider

f-rider wrote:

That was the purpose of my post,... to find out if there was a way to do this. As arod says, game over. I'm evaluating Photo Mechanic which may soon have a "catalog" feature in addition to its photo browser features so that may be the way I go.

FWIW, I remain a big fan of Adobe products. As a user of Adobe Illustrator since the 'Illustrator 88' days, InDesign and PS Elements, I know what a great software design team they have. And Lightroom2, with its new non-destructive adjustment brush, is approaching the intuitive design brought to the table by Nik Software. They may soon crush any competition.

With CNX, PM or others, I will limp along. Thanks for your insights, gents.
--Doug

Just an update to this post for others using Capture NX, I found that Expression Media does what I was looking for, i.e., updates the thumbnail after edits in Capture NX. Capture NX2 on a dual core processor works pretty speedily and Expression Media has a very clean, user friendly interface for cataloging and, yes, updatinig those thumbs ! Happy Camper!