IS a Second Shooter a Volunteer or Paid Pro?

jhelms

I'm trying to get some more experience and want to do a few 'second shooter' weddings - should I volunteer for those spots or request a certain $xx/hr rate or flat fee or something else?

I know it probably varies a good bit but I didn't want to be totally off the mark when approaching some local pros about it.

thanks...

dangin

typically a "second shooter" is a paid position unless you're doing it as a try out for employment with that particular studio/photographer. this may vary of course on the market you're in, your level of experience, your equipment, and the expectations of the studio/photographer.

for instance, i hire my 2nd shooters for 10 hours (with a few exceptions). i don't hire anyone without a good (not just decent) camera body, at least one wide lens with fast glass, and some wedding experience. otherwise i'd start the shooter off as an assistant. i pay between $20-35/hour; my current 2nd shooter makes about $35/hour. she's a great pj shooter and since i'm more of a mixed pj/traditional shooter, we work well together. if the client wants all pj; i'll hire her out as a lead and she makes even more. i can't send her out on my regular jobs yet because i require 2 bodies, fast glass covering the ranges from 28-200mm, 2 on camera flash units, 2 300ws+ strobes, a background stand w/ 2 backgrounds and/or a canvas background. once she gets the few extra pieces of equipment, i wouldn't have a problem sending her out.

Swartzy

A second shooter generally will make a per hour of some sort based on their experience and allowed to use those images for their port. Some will start out as an assistant allowed (or not at times) to bring a camera.

In all reality, if you've not shot any "real" weddings, tagging along as an assistant is incredibly beneficial.....yea, for free in many cases. Most photogs aren't greedy idiots (notice I said most) and are helpful if you have the personality and flexibility. This is a great way to establish relationships, then learn about angles, lighting, capturing particular parts of the day, etc. Plus, they are willing to share more and include you in on their thoughts, eventually asking you what you think.

I would not expect (if I were you) to take your camera, get paid and have the photog use lots of your images.....maybe later down the road. Eye and style in conjuction with attitude and personality are the big 4 for me. I don't care how great a shooter one is....if they have the personality of a rock (or worse) then forget about it...

I still shoot second here and there as it allows me to stretch out creatively...less stress, less filling, less calories.....

Good luck!

Scott_Quier

It depends, like others have already said, on what you've done.

If you come to me with a portfolio and the work is solid and you have a good camera body and at least one good and fast lens (e.i., 24-70 f/2.8, or 17-55 f/2.8 or something like that), then I might be willing to hire you on; depends on your personality. If I can work with you and you can take direction and you have initiative and are a self-starter, then you get the chance of one gig at bottom dollar.

If you are successful (at all the above) then we sit done and start talking specifics for future work.

If you don't have any portfolio or admit to not having worked at least two weddings (and you damn well better not lie to me - I'll see the lie in your work and you're out of there like right now!), then you get to start for scratch as a sherpa. You can bring your equipment to the gig but you get to pull it out only on my say-so. Do a couple of gigs like that, show some promising work, some initiative, and some understanding of light and lighting (I'm not going to do much for training the first couple or two gigs) and an understanding of what it is you are attempting to capture (you have to have that, I'm not going to give it to you until I see what you bring to the table), then you have a chance and we'll sit down and talk about it.

I sound like a real a$$-**le there, but that's what it is. I don't have time to mess around with wanna-bes - just too expensive.

dangin

Scott_Quier wrote:

It depends, like others have already said, on what you've done.
...
I sound like a real a$$-**le there, but that's what it is. I don't have time to mess around with wanna-bes - just too expensive.

take it easy on the guy. his sig states that he doesn't have the equipment you're talking about: nikon d200, 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6, a 50mm f/1.8 and a single sb-600.

john - take the time to hone your skills as a photographer. shoot everything to keep your eye trained to catch stuff as it happens. learn to shoot all manual so that you don't become reliant on the particulars of equipment. if you're just starting out with weddings (<25 weddings), then ask to see if you can apprentice under an established photographer or at a studio. this will allow you to hopefully learn the craft of wedding photography which extends beyond the camera and into crowd control, posing, time management, and some more crowd control. once you've got these concepts down, then it's a good time to start as a 2nd shooter. over time, you'll hopefully acquire additional equipment as well. keep at it and always be open to learning.

dan's rules to wedding photography:
1) know thy equipment
2) always get the best equipment you can afford
3) if it's that important, get 2 (lenses, shots, everything)
4) don't rely on TTL
5) learn to shoot manual
6) get a good tripod
7) know what's next
8) never underestimate the power of a kind word
9) always have a pen
10) i accept cash, check, or money order

Scott_Quier

dangin wrote:

take it easy on the guy. his sig states that he doesn't have the equipment you're talking about: nikon d200, 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6, a 50mm f/1.8 and a single sb-600.

I'm not going to apologize for my views. If the individual doesn't have a port, but does have the drive, etc - well that counts for more with me than all of the above - and that's why the third paragraph is there. That's the opportunity for the individual to impress me and convince me that they are worth my time.

heatherfeather

dangin wrote:

dan's rules to wedding photography:
1) know thy equipment
2) always get the best equipment you can afford
3) if it's that important, get 2 (lenses, shots, everything)
4) don't rely on TTL
5) learn to shoot manual
6) get a good tripod
7) know what's next
8) never underestimate the power of a kind word
9) always have a pen
10) i accept cash, check, or money order

And I would add to that a lint roller- works wonders after rolling around on the ground for some low angle shots
And Scotch tape- almost as important as duct tape, only more classy.

bham

And realize that you are there to work and take photos, or do what the photographer wants you to do. You may learn something, but the main photographer is paying you to work, not to teach you. Teaching is what happens in seminars, etc.

jhelms

dangin wrote:

typically a "second shooter" is a paid position unless you're doing it as a try out for employment with that particular studio/photographer. this may vary of course on the market you're in, your level of experience, your equipment, and the expectations of the studio/photographer.

Cool, I'm hoping to make several new contacts shortly that may allow me to be a 2nd here and there (I'm enrolled in some additional local photo-classes, etc.).

Swartzy wrote:

A second shooter generally will make a per hour of some sort based on their experience and allowed to use those images for their port. Some will start out as an assistant allowed (or not at times) to bring a camera.

In all reality, if you've not shot any "real" weddings, tagging along as an assistant is incredibly beneficial.....yea, for free in many cases. Most photogs aren't greedy idiots (notice I said most) and are helpful if you have the personality and flexibility. This is a great way to establish relationships, then learn about angles, lighting, capturing particular parts of the day, etc. Plus, they are willing to share more and include you in on their thoughts, eventually asking you what you think.

I would not expect (if I were you) to take your camera, get paid and have the photog use lots of your images.....maybe later down the road. Eye and style in conjuction with attitude and personality are the big 4 for me. I don't care how great a shooter one is....if they have the personality of a rock (or worse) then forget about it...

That's about what I was thinking - I definitely have an eager/helpful attitude and make a habit of not stepping on the toes of the person in charge, so hopefully that will help me once I pick up a few events. The best way for me to learn (personally) is through experience, and I don't mind giving up the time in exchange for a little pay monetarily and big pay educationally.

Scott_Quier wrote:

It depends, like others have already said, on what you've done.

If you come to me with a portfolio and the work is solid and you have a good camera body and at least one good and fast lens (e.i., 24-70 f/2.8, or 17-55 f/2.8 or something like that), then I might be willing to hire you on; depends on your personality. If I can work with you and you can take direction and you have initiative and are a self-starter, then you get the chance of one gig at bottom dollar.

I sound like a real a$$-**le there, but that's what it is. I don't have time to mess around with wanna-bes - just too expensive.

I totally understand - there's too much $$ involved in these events for the pro to have to worry about some newbie trying to show up and mess stuff up or make guests feel awkward or not keep their mouth shut when setting up shots, etc.

As far as my equipment goes, some faster glass is definitely on the wish list - I've held off so far (had the D200 for 2 years now) because I want to make sure I'm learning how to do things right and in most cases make do with what I have. I don't use photoshop and although that has caused me to miss a few things (mainly related to white balance) I feel like it's helping me to go back and do things the right way.


Heather - good idea on the lint roller and scotch tape, I have both of those in my goody box with some of my camera mounts and extensions.

bham wrote:

And realize that you are there to work and take photos, or do what the photographer wants you to do. You may learn something, but the main photographer is paying you to work, not to teach you. Teaching is what happens in seminars, etc.

That's the plan, I want to kind of be transparent - listening and soaking up everything I can.


On a related side note (this will come up when taking reception pictures) - what speedlight settings do ya'll recommend for those tricky 'round table' shots of guests? I made a separate post about it here in the technique section:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?p=913484#post913484