little question on what to do

GerryDavid · April 28, 2005

I was in a green house a couple of weeks ago and all the flowers together were really nice. So I got thier business card and emailed them asking permission to take some pictures. I also asked if I could get a property release so I could display them on my website *and who knows, sell prints later on?*, and if they liked any of the pictures, we could work something out. I was hoping they would like some and want to use some of them on thier website.

A few days later I got a response saying that yes I can go take pictures *no mention of the property release* and that "but I would like a copy and be able to use them as well. Let me know if you want to discuss it any further."

I wont be using a high end camera, just a fuji 3800 digital so Ill probably have alot of throw away shots due to no manual focus and the lcd screen doesnt always show when a shot is soft or something. So out of 200 pictures I may be lucky to get 50 good ones.

I also dont want to give away any shots, so I was thinking of replying something with........

"Hello and thanks for your reply.

Part of my photography education has taught me that I shouldnt give away any photo's since it sets a bad precedence for future sales and dealings. So if you wanted to use any of the pictures on your website, in store promotions or anything like that, we would have to work out a fair deal."

I would add more but im not sure what to add yet. Also im not good at this sort of writting so it could be all wrong.

Usually you give something if you get a model/property release, and in some cases I think you have to to make it legal, im not sure there.

Does anyone have any suggestions what to do with this? The pictures would be more for fun and practice of taking flowers, trying to get different perspectives that I like. Any sales would just be a bonus.

Thanks for any advice. :0)

Shay Stephens · April 28, 2005

Well here's the thing. If this is private property, you will need permission to shoot. You don't need a property release to post photos, but you should have one if you plan on selling the photos.

Now the tricky part. The property owner doesn't have to give you permission or sign your property release. It is obvious here that the property owner is interested in photos, so it would seem to me a good trade to provide photos in exchange for open access and permission to shoot.

It was you who approached them, not the other way around. You also have no pressure to get any one particular shot. If you walk away with nothing good, there is no harm done.

So while it is important not to give your work away in principle, it is also important to be able to get the work shot in the first place, and this is where you will have to negotiate with the property owner. Don't make it a one way deal where only you come out on top, or you will never get your permission or a release.

When I am working at venues, I am generous with providing images I take for their use, and they in turn are generous in allowing me access to get and use those images. A win/win situation for both parties.

Now, if instead the property owner was the one contacting you for photos so they could make a new flyer and print ads and the like, then you would want to make sure that you were charging accordingly and that you were not giving your work away. You would also have the pressure of making sure you walked away with good photos that fulfilled their needs.

Do a good job here where both benefit, and it could very well end up with paying work down the road from them or a referral.

Angelo · April 28, 2005

I agree with Shay completely and would add the following.

1) The time for emails has ended. Go meet in person. Nothing beats a handshake.

2) Offer to provide prints of selected shots (maybe even framed). This shows your appreciation yet somewhat limits his use of the shots. Yes he could scan the prints but it's more likely he would contact you in the future to negotiate a file purchase should he want to use an image in a print ad.

3) Have a written agreement spelling out the terms.

4) This part is tricky - Flowers are universal; The nursery owner will know you. If this person is less than honorable he could keep tabs on ANY flower photo you ever publish and "claim" it is his. You can help avoid this with a "contact sheet" of all shots and have him sign off on it as part of his selection process.

GerryDavid · April 28, 2005

Thanks for the replies.

The place is 40 minutes away, each way. So unless I get a job in Ottawa I wont be in this area for a while since its a bit out of the way. I sent the email hoping for a reply before my final class or before my interview today, so I could stop by on my way, but it was half a day to late for that, hehe.

With the cost of gas I cant afford to just go there out of the blue. For comparison its like $3us a gallon if I did the exchange and calculations right.

Now if I was getting something out of this, it would make it worth while, which is what im trying to figure out here, hehe.

Also Ill be moving 14 hours away within 6 months, hopefully within 3 months, so the long term thing doesnt really work in this situation.

I like the idea of giving him a couple 8x10s for the property release but I dont think he would go for it, it sounds like hes more interested in the pictures for website use.

Thanks again for the replies and ideas.

GREAPER · April 28, 2005

The way I see it, I would give him the rights to at least some of the images for his website (with photo credit) in exchange for the property release and then you can use his site as a "published" credit, while you have the rights to the pics for possible sale, stock, etc.

I dont see where you lose giving him the right to use your shots of his property. Even if you do not expect to have him as a client in the future, word of mouth and the use of him as a refence may get you a gig in the future.

I did the Senior Pictures for a co-worker, charged a modest fee, and his reference just landed me a repeating gig at a dance studio that should yield steady cash flow.

GerryDavid · April 28, 2005

Hmm, good point about publised credit and reference.

I presume there should be a written contract saying pictures such and such can be used for his nursery website purpses in exchange for property release and photo credit. Does it matter if this is in legal jargen or something I tossed together in word?

Should I try to get this signed before I take pictures or after? Im thinking after *to make sure theres some worthy results*.

Should I get the property release signed later, at the same time as the contract? Or should I get it the day of the shoot?

Then once I get those 2 things filled out and signed I could mention that if hes interested in using any of the pictures for advertising/etc to contact me?

Again, thanks for the help.

GREAPER · April 28, 2005

GerryDavid wrote:

Hmm, good point about publised credit and reference.

I presume there should be a written contract saying pictures such and such can be used for his nursery website purpses in exchange for property release and photo credit. Does it matter if this is in legal jargen or something I tossed together in word?

Should I try to get this signed before I take pictures or after? Im thinking after *to make sure theres some worthy results*.

Should I get the property release signed later, at the same time as the contract? Or should I get it the day of the shoot?

Then once I get those 2 things filled out and signed I could mention that if hes interested in using any of the pictures for advertising/etc to contact me?

Again, thanks for the help.

I think I would try to get it all in one document.

I ___________________________________ Herby grant Gerry David rights to photograph "Big Ed's Cucumber Farm" and any items on the property, and to retain copyright to the images obtained. Gerry David is granted the right to use the images as he sees fit. In exchange, I will recieve x number of quality images to use for the purpose of advertising and promotion of "Big Ed's Cucumber Farm". Photo Credit will be given to Gerry David whenever the images are used. etc etc.

Signed Big Ed
Property Owner

Signed GerryDavid
Photographer

GerryDavid · April 28, 2005

Thanks GREAPER. I prefer the photography side of the busines over the legal side of it.

GREAPER · April 28, 2005

GerryDavid wrote:

Thanks GREAPER. I prefer the photography side of the busines over the legal side of it.

Me too, I keep hoping for someone to jump in and handle the business thing for me, but it aint happenin.

GerryDavid · April 28, 2005

GREAPER wrote:

Me too, I keep hoping for someone to jump in and handle the business thing for me, but it aint happenin.

Tobad my fiancee didnt focus on law in college, that would have been sweet, hehe.

Marketing isnt to bad, just finished a class in it and I should have a 70-80% in it, depending how badly I messed up on the multiple choice on the final exam.

The accounting part im not to bad at. I plan to get quicken business or something when im at that stage. Actualy what Ill probably do is just get the excel forms from an accountant and fill those out. I already do spreadsheets with my business income but its not layed out professionally. Then give that to an accountant each year.

Now the legal stuff, the government paperwork, etc, I hate all that stuff. Why do they need 5 pages to say something simple? hehe.

Im also an idea person. Actually getting out and doing it is the part I dont care for, mostly cuz im a bit shy.

little question on what to do

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