Aaahhhh!! Help!!!!

Clickr_Grl

I got an email last night from a woman who needs a photographer for a NOvember 22 wedding. (short notice? LOL!) Anyway, I figured 5 hours total (pre wedding, ceremony and reception) 1 photographer, 1 camera, 3 locations, photo disc with release... $500. Reasonable (if not insanely cheap!). She sends me an email back saying she can get it done for $359... first of all, who's the A$$*&^%# shooting weddings for $359??!! Now I had to lower my price.... hmmmmm.... then she tells me its only for 3 hours. Ok, I'll do it for $100/hr. No less. I sent her tons of my work in emails (which took forever whatwith resizing, reformatting, and uploading) and waited for a response... Here's what she sent back....
"ok
so let me get this right.......................
it'll be $100/hour regardless of how many hours i would need you, correct? Cause it may only be 2 hours total. Do you start the time from when you get there?
I was thinking you can meet us at the church and then come to the rental property afterwards and take pics by the lake, the rental is on the lake.
And I get the disc that I can make my own copies, I dont get prints from you unless I pay extra? Is that what I am understanding?
If this is correct you can mail me the contract, I'll review it, sign it and what deposit amount do you need since I am unsure of how many hours?"
:huh
?????
She wants me to shoot a wedding in 2 hours??!! Meet her at the church??!!! AND get great photos??? For what??? (yep folks you read it here.... $200!!!!!!!!

Oh my god!!!!

So, what would YOU do?
:hang

Llywellyn

Tell her to go with the $359 photographer. Seriously, I don't shoot portrait sessions for $200, and she wants a whole wedding? Save yourself the headache. $200 ain't worth it for all that hassle, in my humble opinion.

Clickr_Grl

Thats what im thinkin too..... She wants million dollar shots for $200! !

Heres what I'm thinking about sending back....


"First, I want you to understand that 2 hours is NOT going to be enough time to get all of the shots. I know you will want photos of your family, friends, guests, and of course your bridal party. I understand that you would like to save money, but this is the most important day of your life and you need to really think about it. 2 hours would prevent me from being able to give you creative and beautiful shots to last a lifetime. Needless to say, I will need some time to set-up, take test shots, and meet you and your fiance'. When taking formals of the family, it always takes a little longer than you expect. People talk during these things and that holds me up. Also, I cant be expected to just take one picture of each pose. I dont know where you got the quote for $359, or if you've seen their work, but I would NEVER shoot a wedding so cheap. I am willing to give you a lower price due to the fact that it would be such a short time and it sounds like a small amount of people. But, I have never in my years of photographing weddings been able to complete a shoot in less than 4 hours. There is always someone stopping me to get a photo taken, there is always a hold-up somewhere.

Second, you say you want me to meet you at the church... you don't want photos of you and your bridesmaids getting ready for this huge day? I will NOT meet you at the church 20 mins before your wedding and be expected to get good shots. It wont happen. I need that little bit of time before the ceremony to get to know you and your bridal party. Again, this is the most important day of your life. Think about it.

I will be perfectly honest, $300 is a ridiculous price for wedding photography. I mean that not in a bad way. You have seen my work, a lot of it, and I know as well as you, that work like that doesn't come for $300 very often. Like I said I am willing to do this cheaper for you knowing that its a small group, its close by for me, and I can tell by your emails that you are trying to save some money. I dont blame you one bit, but you cant expect me to be able to do this in just 2 hours.

so, in short, I will not shoot your wedding for less than 3 hours. If you would like me to meet you at the church, I will do so, 1/2 hour prior to the ceremony and no less. I will begin shooting as soon as I am set up. My time begins when I get to the church, I will set up, take some test shots, and begin my job. From that point on, I will shoot for 3 hours and when that time is up, I will pack my things and leave. If you receive your photos and something was not captured or they are not as good as you wanted, I will NOT be held responsible for them. I have to protect myself as well. Every photo you saw was taken during a span of 5 hours or more and there were photos that couldn't be used due to blurriness due to motion, facial expressions, etc.

I think if this is a problem, I will have to turn down shooting your wedding altogether. I just cant do it for that price, or that amount of time."
:boid

Mitchell

She contacted you! There really is no reason for you to even consider doing this wedding. It all smells like trouble from the start with an insanely cheap person who doesn't value your time or talent.

Just politely decline saying she would be better off with the $359 photographer.

Clickr_Grl

Thank you Mitchell. I'll scrap that email and tell her just that. I appreciate the help guys! I love this forum!! SO quick when you need help NOW!!

Jeff_Milo

I agree with Mitchell, just a short reply saying thanks but no thanks. Whish her a wonderful wedding day and rid yourself of what sounds like a tremendous headache.

Agnieszka

Yeah, seriously .. not worth it .... She sounds like trouble, a LOT of trouble, don't even bother discussing with her anymore. Not worth your time. I understand giving people a special deal, but not if they act like that ...

Btw. sending a mad email won't help (and let me tell you I was close to it so many times!!). Keep t short and tell her something else came in between. - She'll get it.

dadwtwins

As a new photographer for weddings, events and such, it is always hard to turn down a job. But this one just sounds like trouble from the get-go. If she is conducting your time in a way that does not allow your input, think how the post processing of the pictures will go. Sometimes it is just not worth it and your gut always tells you early on what is worth it and what is not.

Good luck with whatever your choice ends up

Scott_Quier

It sounds like you did the right thing - turning this job away. I think you did the right thing, but not soon enough.

The $359 price was a low-ball price, trying to get you to lower your prices - and it worked. Then she/they talked you into re-working your entire business model. Then they were going to cheap on you by having you show up at the church just 20 minutes before the ceremony. Where would it have ended. The next thing you know, they would have wanted you to be at the reception a couple of hours after the ceremony, but OBTW, "we don't want to pay you for the time we are keeping you waiting..."

Take it from one who has learned the hard way - people who will cheap out in this way are not worth the time. I had on couple that was almost that bad and, after I had met the contractual obligations (and then some), the groom threatened me with a civil law suit because his slideshow program "didn't play the photos in the correct order." I kid you not!!

Besides getting to the church just 20 minutes before the wedding doesn't give you enough time to get done what you need to get done before the ceremony. It doesn't give you enough time to meet the officiate, discover their "rules of engagement", find out how the wedding is going to play out, determine where you need to be for each portion of the ceremony.

As for the email you send - no need to lie about anything. "Upon reflection, I feel I'm not a good fit for you and I don't think I will be able to deliver the quality product this occasion warrants." No lies, no placing blame on them. No burned bridges. It leaves them with the impression that you think they are all right - could result in other work down the line.

Consider this a dodged bullet!

Moogle Pepper

$359? Why such an odd number? Why not include some cents to it too?

I had to do a on the spot wedding, two sundays ago right after my first one on Friday. Only because it was for a family friend who only decided to marry. Since I was going to be there and they didn't have a photographer, I said.. sure, I'll do it.

Good thing you declined this!! How did she find you?

jeffreaux2

I think the $500 was too cheap.

I negotiate for sure, but not usually on pricing.

dangin

Llywellyn wrote:

Tell her to go with the $359 photographer. Seriously, I don't shoot portrait sessions for $200, and she wants a whole wedding? Save yourself the headache. $200 ain't worth it for all that hassle, in my humble opinion.

+1. that's just ridiculous. this is the type of business you never want or should have.

Clickr_Grl

dangin wrote:

+1. that's just ridiculous. this is the type of business you never want or should have.

Well, update:
Needless to say, she was pissed. Sent me a nasty email and everything. Says I'm not talented enough to shoot her wedding and that I have a "bad additude"..... I tried to be nice, and helpful.... see where that got me. I was pretty bummed out about the talent thing:cry ... as most people would be, but I got over it. Guess you just have to take it from where it comes sometimes.

Thanks for help on that though. I am definately relieved that I'm not shooting this nut's wedding. :crazy

Scott_Quier

Clickr_Grl wrote:

Well, update:
Needless to say, she was pissed. Sent me a nasty email and everything. Says I'm not talented enough to shoot her wedding and that I have a "bad additude"..... I tried to be nice, and helpful.... see where that got me. I was pretty bummed out about the talent thing:cry ... as most people would be, but I got over it. Guess you just have to take it from where it comes sometimes.

Thanks for help on that though. I am definately relieved that I'm not shooting this nut's wedding. :crazy

Thanks for the update. Good to see that it turned out right for you.

Shay Stephens commented one time about how empowering and gratifying it can be to "Just say no!" and I've found this to be the truth. This, obviously, was a train wreck waiting to happen.

jeffreaux2

Scott_Quier wrote:

This, obviously, was a train wreck waiting to happen.

Yuppers!

urbanaries

Clickr_Grl wrote:

... and that I have a "bad additude"

Oh what sweet irony. Her saying you have problems adding? That's priceless.

Please take heart, trust all of us when we say that you truly avoided a trainwreck. As Shay has been referenced, saying no stings, but it is over much quicker than the long, slow, painful reality of saying yes to a client from he%%.

Chin up! I pity her for taking a low blow at your talent as a response to her being rebuffed in her efforts to essentially convince you to do her WEDDING for nothing.

mmroden

Maybe this is hijacking the thread (just a bit!), but $500 for a wedding seems really low to me, and that's where you start.

I tend to go for $800 for 6 hours, and no fewer hours or cheaper, with each extra hour at $100 more. That includes an assistant (who I pay $15/hour), postprocessing, all the raw photos and processed photos on CD, and a smugmug website that's part of my site, if they want it. If they have more than 100 people, I require a second photographer hired at $35/hour, and charge $50/hour more (coordination time and expenses with that second, ie, driving to pick them up, etc, plus having to go through and process the second's shots).

My prices are a high compared to yours, but all the random contacts I've had have been more than happy with those prices. This is the LA market, so there's (probably) some cost adjustment there, but I'm definitely cheaper than the person I learned from, and the person she learned from. (In fact, I was told I'd better raise my prices to at least $1k for 8 hours, otherwise I was cannibalizing their business). Maybe it's time to raise your base price?

Clickr_Grl

mmroden wrote:

Maybe this is hijacking the thread (just a bit!), but $500 for a wedding seems really low to me, and that's where you start.

I tend to go for $800 for 6 hours, and no fewer hours or cheaper, with each extra hour at $100 more. That includes an assistant (who I pay $15/hour), postprocessing, all the raw photos and processed photos on CD, and a smugmug website that's part of my site, if they want it. If they have more than 100 people, I require a second photographer hired at $35/hour, and charge $50/hour more (coordination time and expenses with that second, ie, driving to pick them up, etc, plus having to go through and process the second's shots).

My prices are a high compared to yours, but all the random contacts I've had have been more than happy with those prices. This is the LA market, so there's (probably) some cost adjustment there, but I'm definitely cheaper than the person I learned from, and the person she learned from. (In fact, I was told I'd better raise my prices to at least $1k for 8 hours, otherwise I was cannibalizing their business). Maybe it's time to raise your base price?

I absolutely agree. My base prices vary by number of hours. But, I'm in PA and it's been REALLY hard here. I've only shot 3 weddings this year when I'm usually shooting 3 just this month! I'm broke and need whatever I can get my hands on. I hated going that low, but like I said, it was 3 hours and really close to home. I was trying to be helpful (maybe get a good reference or two) and make some extra $$ in the process. I messed up by doing that. I know. I definately learned not to change my prices for anyone or for any reason. Again, thanx for the advice.

bham

Well I think you made some assumptions about this wedding, or maybe this info was in the email to you, but you didn't put the info in the thread. First off, when people are booking this close to the date it is usually for a couple of reasons from my experience. 1. Someone is pregnant, and they are throwing together what they can before they start to show to much. 2. The big formal wedding is not a priority to the bride or her family and a small simple ceremony is being planned. 3. They just want to hurry up and get on with being married. 4. Its a second or third marriage for one or both of the couple.

Now, I have photographed a wedding of each of these types and a large budget was not really in there plans. I have had a call as late as 2 days before they were going to get married. It was going to be on a wednesday afternoon in the botanical gardens. They wanted me for one hour. It was me the B&G and the minister. That's it. No family, nobody else. If I would have said well my minimum is 5 hours for $1500 I would have not ended up shooting the wedding. I think you needed to try and get this person on the phone and get a better sense of what was going on. Yes 2 hours is short, but if what she wanted was minimal, 2 hours could have been plenty to satisfy her needs and probably exceed them.

My point is that if you get a call less than 5 months out, that I tend to try and find out why they are just now getting around to planning. It could be one of the things I pointed out above, or they could be extremely busy, or procrastinators. Whatever it is, finding out helps you size up the clients situation, etc to help you determine if you want the business and what their limitations maybe.

Also if you can meet with them in person, it is less likely they will try and pull something like that with you. People find it easier to be rude in emails, forums, etc but don't tend to do that in person.

bham

mmroden wrote:

I tend to go for $800 for 6 hours, and no fewer hours or cheaper, with each extra hour at $100 more.

I am sure that $800 in LA is relatively inexpensive as well. Especially for the time and files. I would say that 2k - 2.5k would be most full time pros low end for compared time and files. Just an educated guess from seeing a few photogs prices.

After time and editing time, etc you are probably less than 100 an hour. My goal after shooting and editing is $200/hour.

Clickr_Grl

bham wrote:

I am sure that $800 in LA is relatively inexpensive as well. Especially for the time and files. I would say that 2k - 2.5k would be most full time pros low end for compared time and files. Just an educated guess from seeing a few photogs prices.

After time and editing time, etc you are probably less than 100 an hour. My goal after shooting and editing is $200/hour.

I feel good if I can get $100 an hour! People here just dont want to pay... Oh well, alls well that ends well I guess.

merrisweel

Right On!
I think you did the right thing, for sure. This woman obviously was so interested in what you had to offer her as a photographer before you turned her down. She only insulted your talent because she wanted to hit you where it hurt because you weren't going to give her what she wanted. I run into people like this (I'm also in PA - maybe it's a PA thing?!) DON'T be insulted by someone like that. I know it's hard. I leave work sometimes, and need to take a bubble bath because someone didn't like something I did, and its hard not to take that to heart... You know your talent and you can rest assured that you're portfolio is probably a heck of a lot better than the one of the person she had doing their wedding for $359!

And just to give you an example. I'm doing my sister-in-laws wedding on Saturday. I'm charging her $500, and she's FAMILY! $500 is insanely cheap for a wedding. Don't feel bad about your prices!

Ed911

Pricing...
What Mitch said...mirrors my experience exactly. Verified by the nasty email that you received. It should have been a clue when the email kept asking, "so let me get this right." She couldn't believe that you would do it so cheap.

Send these people to Wal-Mart's camera counter.

Chin up...do good work and charge a good price.

Good luck in the future...

angevin1

Do what I have done~

Clickr_Grl wrote:

I got an email last night from a woman who needs a photographer for a NOvember 22 wedding. (short notice? !) Anyway, I figured 5 hours total (pre wedding, ceremony and reception) 1 photographer, 1 camera, 3 locations, photo disc with release... $500. Reasonable (if not insanely cheap!). She sends me an email back saying she can get it done for $359... first of all, who's the A$$*&^%# shooting weddings for $359??!! Now I had to lower my price.... hmmmmm.... then she tells me its only for 3 hours. Ok, I'll do it for $100/hr. No less. I sent her tons of my work in emails (which took forever whatwith resizing, reformatting, and uploading) and waited for a response... Here's what she sent back....
"ok
so let me get this right.......................
it'll be $100/hour regardless of how many hours i would need you, correct? Cause it may only be 2 hours total. Do you start the time from when you get there?
I was thinking you can meet us at the church and then come to the rental property afterwards and take pics by the lake, the rental is on the lake.
And I get the disc that I can make my own copies, I dont get prints from you unless I pay extra? Is that what I am understanding?
If this is correct you can mail me the contract, I'll review it, sign it and what deposit amount do you need since I am unsure of how many hours?"

?????
She wants me to shoot a wedding in 2 hours??!! Meet her at the church??!!! AND get great photos??? For what??? (yep folks you read it here.... $200!!!!!!!!

Oh my god!!!!

So, what would YOU do?
:hang

Congratulate her and send her on her way. This happend to me now at least twice, once for certain being asked to match anothers quote. I have so little experience with Weddings so far. But as far as being undersold goes, I'd rather let it ride! I need the experience, I need the decent photos, but I do not need to be devalued. Nor do you.

mho...tw

rsparts

I'm not so sure she even had someone that would do it for $359. My thoughts were that she only told you that to get you to come down in price. Screw her - she's obviously trying to pull a fast one and you handled it correctly by kindly telling her to sod off.

ashton25

If you take this job I bet the morgage she won't be satisfied with your work no matter what you do.

You have to decide what you want to be a low budget photog or a pro. I turn down more events than I accept for one reason or another. I believe you teach people how to treat you and if your haggling on time and cost says so much of you.

geospatial_junkie

Wow.... that is cheap! Wedddings around here go for an average $1500-$2000 a pop. The top end is $6400. The guy doing those is world-reknowned though...

Nikolai

Sorry to be late to the party... I concur with what Scott said: this was a train wreck going to happen.
I recently declined a relatively straight $600 gig simply because I felt it should've been $1200. I politely explained myself and counteroffered. Luckily I didn't have to deal with the "lack of talent" letters in this case, although those also happen from time to time.
The best thing is to forget it and move on.
It's your time, it's up to you what your charge for it.

ashton25

Anyone who haggles on your service that should be a definite sign to turn them down. You have to decide what kind of a photographer you wanna be a bottom feeder or a pro.

I must turn down more people than I accept for one reason or another. I believe in my talents and service. When I used to work for less than what I believed I was worth it showed in my photos, effort and mental state.

IMHO
1crazynite.com

Swartzy

ashton25 wrote:

Anyone who haggles on your service that should be a definite sign to turn them down. You have to decide what kind of a photographer you wanna be a bottom feeder or a pro.

I must turn down more people than I accept for one reason or another. I believe in my talents and service. When I used to work for less than what I believed I was worth it showed in my photos, effort and mental state.

IMHO
1crazynite.com

I couldn't agree more with this philosophy. With all the time spent learning camera/lens differences, lighting, compositions, etc.....then what about post processing...digital darkroom...software, computer, hard drive, associations, insurance....no negotiating.....what's the point? Let the lowlife's get their point and shoots and have their way on Craig's list....if you want to be a pro then there's only one solution...invest in yourself and go after the clients that recognize professionalism. I don't even consider shooting for this type of individual....you shouldn't either.

Blaker

Scott_Quier wrote:

As for the email you send - no need to lie about anything. "Upon reflection, I feel I'm not a good fit for you and I don't think I will be able to deliver the quality product this occasion warrants." No lies, no placing blame on them. No burned bridges. It leaves them with the impression that you think they are all right - could result in other work down the line.

Consider this a dodged bullet!

Oh, I so agree with Scott!!!! Even if you did exactly what she wanted, and only charged her the ridiculously low sum of $359, I'll be she would find fault with everything and try to get her money back!!
I think, after dealing with her, you now know why she is looking for a photographer so late in the game.
I would send the letter that Scott suggested, and not get drawn into any further correspondence with her should she reply.
Good luck!

(Oh, and are you sure you are charging enough for your time in general? Post processing, especially for wedding photos, takes a lot of time and expertise, and you want to be sure to allow for that in the prices you quote. So, if you want to make $100/hr, and you are shooting for 3 hours, you should be charging more like $600 total, not $300. Also, if you are giving them a cd with all of the photos on it so that they can make their own prints, be sure to add a couple of hundred dollars onto the quoted wedding price to allow for that.)