Unfortunately, the camera only allows contrast-detect focus and only allows autofocus with contrast-detect lenses. I think that will be a major fly-in-the-ointment in competing with true dSLRs with electronic rangefinder (phase-detect) autofocus.
This camera, and similar offerings sure to come along, will be major competition for "bridge" cameras and super-zoom digicams. I would not expect it to affect the dSLR market much at all.
There is a solution, build lenses with the phase-detect autofocus built-in to the lens. More than possible this concept was demonstrated and a few lenses built around 25 or so years ago. Now that would be cool and I would be all over this in a "New York minute".
Unfortunately, the camera only allows contrast-detect focus and only allows autofocus with contrast-detect lenses. I think that will be a major fly-in-the-ointment in competing with true dSLRs with electronic rangefinder (phase-detect) autofocus.
This camera, and similar offerings sure to come along, will be major competition for "bridge" cameras and super-zoom digicams. I would not expect it to affect the dSLR market much at all.
There is a solution, build lenses with the phase-detect autofocus built-in to the lens. More than possible this concept was demonstrated and a few lenses built around 25 or so years ago. Now that would be cool and I would be all over this in a "New York minute".
Hey Ziggy,
Could you give us a short explanation of how phase detection and contrast detection work? I gather phase detection must be more accurate, but it's all voodoo to me.
Unfortunately, the camera only allows contrast-detect focus and only allows autofocus with contrast-detect lenses. I think that will be a major fly-in-the-ointment in competing with true dSLRs with electronic rangefinder (phase-detect) autofocus.
This camera, and similar offerings sure to come along, will be major competition for "bridge" cameras and super-zoom digicams. I would not expect it to affect the dSLR market much at all.
There is a solution, build lenses with the phase-detect autofocus built-in to the lens. More than possible this concept was demonstrated and a few lenses built around 25 or so years ago. Now that would be cool and I would be all over this in a "New York minute".
From what they are saying the contrast detect auto focus is on par with the phase detect autofocus on entry-level DSLR Cameras. But the thing that excited me the most was a new sensor with better DR in this application so hopefully in the upcoming Olympus body (tweener and possibly e-3 update) will get a nice boost in this regard
As for this specific micro 4/3 camera, its not for me. I'm hoping Olympus comes out with one with the E420 form factor and a smaller non-IS lens, plus im a big fan of the olympus jpeg engine.
It looks good, and the advances they've made with the AF look good. There are also signs that Panasonic is starting to catch up in the one area where it has long been weak - basic sensor tech (the LX3, for example, is looking very good for a compact and I hope this bodes well for their live MOS cameras). What's not to like? Well, it's not a DSLR. There's no reason for it to look like a small DSLR. Yet it looks like a small DSLR. I was hoping for something a little more range finder like in appearance (just like the quirky Pasnasonic L1 DSLR). I guess quirky doesn't sell......
Unfortunately, the camera only allows contrast-detect focus and only allows autofocus with contrast-detect lenses. I think that will be a major fly-in-the-ointment in competing with true dSLRs with electronic rangefinder (phase-detect) autofocus.
I don't know too much about the technology, but DPReview says:
"our initial tests would suggest that they have solved at least one of the technological problems mentioned earlier (the contrast-detect autofocus is easily as fast as any other entry-level DSLR)"
Anyway - interesting idea. As an avid 4/3 user, I am trying to decide if I want one of these or not...
I don't know too much about the technology, but DPReview says: "our initial tests would suggest that they have solved at least one of the technological problems mentioned earlier (the contrast-detect autofocus is easily as fast as any other entry-level DSLR)" Anyway - interesting idea. As an avid 4/3 user, I am trying to decide if I want one of these or not...
Lens compatibility is something to think about at the moment - this camera only supports lenses that are compatible with contrast-detect (not that many, and presently not the very best that Olympus has to offer).
Today's announcement is very much a "Panasonic only" move (for the first time in a long time, the lenses don't carry the Leica name, which potentially says a lot).
It's the early hours here - I'll write more when I'm sober (or later if shooting conditions are good in the morning).
Could you give us a short explanation of how phase detection and contrast detection work? I gather phase detection must be more accurate, but it's all voodoo to me.
Thx.
If you've ever used a rangefinder camera, with 2 displaced lenses and an overlayed image in the viewfinder, then you have a pretty good idea how a phase detect, secondary-image-registration (SIR) system works. The image from the lens is split into two beams and the two beams are separated by distance. The phase detect system can measure the difference between the two beams and this yields both distance and direction data. In other words, the autofocus system can be told the distance to adjust the lens and the direction (forward or backward) to travel. Obviously the system is self correcting as the image focus is adjusted and the autofocus stopps when the two beams converge with respect to the selected autofocus point (or points). Since the distance and direction of the autofocus is calculated, there is no need to move the focus back and forth. The phase detect system is seperate from the imager and requires a portion of the image path, usually in the form of a half-silvered mirror, to deflect into the phase detect module.
In a contrast detect system, the lens focus is adjusted while the autofocus looks at regions/zones by contrast differentials, light vs dark. When the contrast differentials maximize, it is presumed to be prime focus for the sampled area. The problem with the system is that it has move the lens focus back and forth in order to determine maximum contrast. The system does not give the focus adjuster either distance or direction data. Typically, a contrast detect system uses the camera's imager itself to provide the data for the autofocus system.
Both systems use contrast to some degree but the contrast detect system relies soley on contrast and generally requires higher differentials in order to be accurate.
Phase detect systems tend to be both faster and more accurate and do not rely on the resolution or activation of the camera's imager.
I really like the concept here. Good low key vacation cameras and such for those that want dslr IQ in a near digicam sized body.
There is a video of how fast the AF system works in DPReview and they seem impressed by the speed and I thought it was fast enough for most uses from that video.
They also have a 20mm f1.7 pancake lens in the works for next year.
Only if these looked more like a range finder/Canon G9/Sigma DP1.
I'd wish they look like range finder bodies myself, but we'll see what Leica does with this system. Too bad that once you slap on a Leica logo on the body, it'll probably double the price.
There is a video of how fast the AF system works in DPReview and they seem impressed by the speed and I thought it was fast enough for most uses from that video.
...
I had missed that video. Thanks for mentioning it.
Notice the very small amount of overshoot as the focus passes prime focus and then the lens "snaps back" to prime focus. I suspect the camera is building a small database of contrast detect data and then coordinating the distance data back to the lens. This is pretty remarkable and I am impressed with the speed of the system.
Lots of discussion here about the details of the camera, which is interesting. BUT, is this the look of the future? It seems the improvements in technology could result in a camera with these concepts at the high end. The fact that a FF sensor has such superior capabilities is just a technical limitation on small sensors right now. Won't that be overcome at some point? It seems to me the optics will be the limiting factor. Telephotos still need to be long. But much of what we call a DSLR can change.
Guess we'll have to wait for the reviews and user's reports and see. Personally, more different tools for image making there are, the better it is for those who love to photograph in my view.
Maybe this will spur other makers like Canon and Nikon to seriously improve the IQ of it's luxury digicams like the G9.
I don't think this cameras market is aimed at hard core photogs who want the best image possible, but probably that are tired of low IQ of digicams but want something easier and lighter to use than a dslr and a bag full of $1000 lenses.
I've been shooting with various SLRs for a good amount of time now...
Personally I am absolutely in favour for a smaller Camera with an SLR like image quality - especially in low light / high iso situations.
Also user exchangeable lenses are something I consider a "must"...
The thing for me is, that I mostly travel VERY light (35liter backpack and small sidebag - that's all... even for several months on the road)...
A Huge DSLR Setup is really problematic when it comes to good portability.
That has been "bugging" me so far, as that I at the moment consider to get something like a Canon G9 or Panasonix LX3 or whatever will hit the market in a few month - as a "smaller takealong" camera with good manual controls (the G9 is excellen in that regard, considering it's size).
However I would quite prefer to still have something enpar with the image-quality of a DSLR and with a lens I can choose.
The G1 sounds VERY promising in this regard ... it brings size down a lot. My D70s with the Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 looks huge in comparison.
I'm not in a hurry to buy anything at the moment - as I have no more "real" travel plans until the end of 2008.
But it is something which has been on my "wishlist" for long - a compact yet qualitative camera.
That there are drawbacks (there's always some,...) I can accept.
For me Imagequality is the major "keypoint",...
I also want a lens or a camera with Image stabilization - as that is something I wish I had with my current setup (I know I could buy another lens)..... i've tried it with a friends 18-200 VR (Nikon) and the VR works quite well...
Also a good high ISO Performance is somewhat important to me...
I don't mind some noise, but I hate blurred images and loss of detail.
if it delivers printable shots at ISO 1600 with a little postprocessing I'm fine.
Wiating and seeing is good.
Waiting and seeing is good at the moment. There's lots of game changing stuff going on in the photo biz and, if you're happy with what you've got, there has IMO never been a better time to wait a few months and see what happens.
I'm tempted by the G10 - it's perfect for those business trip where I'm on one of those European airlines that are a bit strict with hand luggage. Nevertheless, I will wait (ok, I look into my crystal ball and see a lens in my future but other than that, I'll wait).
Lots of discussion here about the details of the camera, which is interesting. BUT, is this the look of the future? It seems the improvements in technology could result in a camera with these concepts at the high end. The fact that a FF sensor has such superior capabilities is just a technical limitation on small sensors right now. Won't that be overcome at some point? It seems to me the optics will be the limiting factor. Telephotos still need to be long. But much of what we call a DSLR can change.
Comments
Unfortunately, the camera only allows contrast-detect focus and only allows autofocus with contrast-detect lenses. I think that will be a major fly-in-the-ointment in competing with true dSLRs with electronic rangefinder (phase-detect) autofocus.
This camera, and similar offerings sure to come along, will be major competition for "bridge" cameras and super-zoom digicams. I would not expect it to affect the dSLR market much at all.
There is a solution, build lenses with the phase-detect autofocus built-in to the lens. More than possible this concept was demonstrated and a few lenses built around 25 or so years ago. Now that would be cool and I would be all over this in a "New York minute".
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Hey Ziggy,
Could you give us a short explanation of how phase detection and contrast detection work? I gather phase detection must be more accurate, but it's all voodoo to me.
Thx.
From what they are saying the contrast detect auto focus is on par with the phase detect autofocus on entry-level DSLR Cameras. But the thing that excited me the most was a new sensor with better DR in this application so hopefully in the upcoming Olympus body (tweener and possibly e-3 update) will get a nice boost in this regard
As for this specific micro 4/3 camera, its not for me. I'm hoping Olympus comes out with one with the E420 form factor and a smaller non-IS lens, plus im a big fan of the olympus jpeg engine.
I don't know too much about the technology, but DPReview says:
"our initial tests would suggest that they have solved at least one of the technological problems mentioned earlier (the contrast-detect autofocus is easily as fast as any other entry-level DSLR)"
Anyway - interesting idea. As an avid 4/3 user, I am trying to decide if I want one of these or not...
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Lens compatibility is something to think about at the moment - this camera only supports lenses that are compatible with contrast-detect (not that many, and presently not the very best that Olympus has to offer).
Today's announcement is very much a "Panasonic only" move (for the first time in a long time, the lenses don't carry the Leica name, which potentially says a lot).
It's the early hours here - I'll write more when I'm sober (or later if shooting conditions are good in the morning).
If you've ever used a rangefinder camera, with 2 displaced lenses and an overlayed image in the viewfinder, then you have a pretty good idea how a phase detect, secondary-image-registration (SIR) system works. The image from the lens is split into two beams and the two beams are separated by distance. The phase detect system can measure the difference between the two beams and this yields both distance and direction data. In other words, the autofocus system can be told the distance to adjust the lens and the direction (forward or backward) to travel. Obviously the system is self correcting as the image focus is adjusted and the autofocus stopps when the two beams converge with respect to the selected autofocus point (or points). Since the distance and direction of the autofocus is calculated, there is no need to move the focus back and forth. The phase detect system is seperate from the imager and requires a portion of the image path, usually in the form of a half-silvered mirror, to deflect into the phase detect module.
In a contrast detect system, the lens focus is adjusted while the autofocus looks at regions/zones by contrast differentials, light vs dark. When the contrast differentials maximize, it is presumed to be prime focus for the sampled area. The problem with the system is that it has move the lens focus back and forth in order to determine maximum contrast. The system does not give the focus adjuster either distance or direction data. Typically, a contrast detect system uses the camera's imager itself to provide the data for the autofocus system.
Both systems use contrast to some degree but the contrast detect system relies soley on contrast and generally requires higher differentials in order to be accurate.
Phase detect systems tend to be both faster and more accurate and do not rely on the resolution or activation of the camera's imager.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Me too
Ziggy is the best.
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There is a video of how fast the AF system works in DPReview and they seem impressed by the speed and I thought it was fast enough for most uses from that video.
They also have a 20mm f1.7 pancake lens in the works for next year.
Only if these looked more like a range finder/Canon G9/Sigma DP1.
I'd wish they look like range finder bodies myself, but we'll see what Leica does with this system. Too bad that once you slap on a Leica logo on the body, it'll probably double the price.
I had missed that video. Thanks for mentioning it.
Notice the very small amount of overshoot as the focus passes prime focus and then the lens "snaps back" to prime focus. I suspect the camera is building a small database of contrast detect data and then coordinating the distance data back to the lens. This is pretty remarkable and I am impressed with the speed of the system.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
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Maybe this will spur other makers like Canon and Nikon to seriously improve the IQ of it's luxury digicams like the G9.
I don't think this cameras market is aimed at hard core photogs who want the best image possible, but probably that are tired of low IQ of digicams but want something easier and lighter to use than a dslr and a bag full of $1000 lenses.
Personally I am absolutely in favour for a smaller Camera with an SLR like image quality - especially in low light / high iso situations.
Also user exchangeable lenses are something I consider a "must"...
The thing for me is, that I mostly travel VERY light (35liter backpack and small sidebag - that's all... even for several months on the road)...
A Huge DSLR Setup is really problematic when it comes to good portability.
That has been "bugging" me so far, as that I at the moment consider to get something like a Canon G9 or Panasonix LX3 or whatever will hit the market in a few month - as a "smaller takealong" camera with good manual controls (the G9 is excellen in that regard, considering it's size).
However I would quite prefer to still have something enpar with the image-quality of a DSLR and with a lens I can choose.
The G1 sounds VERY promising in this regard ... it brings size down a lot. My D70s with the Sigma 18-50 f/2.8 looks huge in comparison.
I'm not in a hurry to buy anything at the moment - as I have no more "real" travel plans until the end of 2008.
But it is something which has been on my "wishlist" for long - a compact yet qualitative camera.
That there are drawbacks (there's always some,...) I can accept.
For me Imagequality is the major "keypoint",...
I also want a lens or a camera with Image stabilization - as that is something I wish I had with my current setup (I know I could buy another lens)..... i've tried it with a friends 18-200 VR (Nikon) and the VR works quite well...
Also a good high ISO Performance is somewhat important to me...
I don't mind some noise, but I hate blurred images and loss of detail.
if it delivers printable shots at ISO 1600 with a little postprocessing I'm fine.
Waiting and seeing is good at the moment. There's lots of game changing stuff going on in the photo biz and, if you're happy with what you've got, there has IMO never been a better time to wait a few months and see what happens.
I'm tempted by the G10 - it's perfect for those business trip where I'm on one of those European airlines that are a bit strict with hand luggage. Nevertheless, I will wait (ok, I look into my crystal ball and see a lens in my future but other than that, I'll wait).
My thinking exactly.
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http://www.swintoncounseling.com