Learning composition

CWSkopec

So here's my dilemma... I spent the past 6 months or so since I got my dSLR shooting away and filling compact flash cards and my external hard drive and CDs/DVDs, etc. Once I do that, I head home to look at all the pictures I just took on my monitor and pick out the good ones, or at least, the better ones of the day. It's a slow process to learn good composition this way. I mean, I feel like I'm getting better, I see more shots I like everytime, but the problem is that I lack the tools to evaluate my own work on my own.

That said, are there any good books out there that start basic and get into the finer points of composition? A recent journey to the local Borders didn't yield much of promise. It seemed like the majority of the books there were more about "Here's my pretty picture!" then "here's a picture that works and here's why..."

If it helps at all, my goal woul be to take less photos but get more good ones... if that makes sense. Also if it helps suggestion wise, I'm currently more "into" landscape and cityscape type shots than portraits or such.

Trevlan

CWSkopec wrote:

So here's my dilemma... I spent the past 6 months or so since I got my dSLR shooting away and filling compact flash cards and my external hard drive and CDs/DVDs, etc. Once I do that, I head home to look at all the pictures I just took on my monitor and pick out the good ones, or at least, the better ones of the day. It's a slow process to learn good composition this way. I mean, I feel like I'm getting better, I see more shots I like everytime, but the problem is that I lack the tools to evaluate my own work on my own.

That said, are there any good books out there that start basic and get into the finer points of composition? A recent journey to the local Borders didn't yield much of promise. It seemed like the majority of the books there were more about "Here's my pretty picture!" then "here's a picture that works and here's why..."

If it helps at all, my goal woul be to take less photos but get more good ones... if that makes sense. Also if it helps suggestion wise, I'm currently more "into" landscape and cityscape type shots than portraits or such.

Anyone can point a camera and click the shutter. Composition is what separates a good picture from a great one. I'm far from an expert, but I do read an aweful lot about photography. Whether it's here in the forum or from books I've purchase. Recently, I dug into the foloowing books: Lighting Photo Workshop by Chris Bucher and Portait and Candid Photography Photo Workshop by Erin Manning. There is another book, of the many in the series, called Composition. Don't know who it's by, but judging from the previous two books; it must be good. They also have a website where you can post pictures and have your 'homeworks" looked at.

One thing that helped me dramatically was participating in the Assignments portion of this forum. I take better landscape photos, but I'm also interested in photographing people. Two completely different areas of focus, but the same concepts can be applied. (Hilighting the subject with minimal to no distractions, choosing a background, angle, etc...)

Here is an example of good composition. The picture leads the viewer's eyes to the Manhattan bridge, wich was the main subject of this picture.



In your composition, you have to make clear and certain what your subject is. In the following photo, the step like building was my main subject. This building is separated from the foreground and background by being properly exposed and everything else left to be dark and fade away.



Hope this helps...

Scott_Quier

There's just loads and loads of such information on the net (of course, you have to be careful about which postings you believe:D). Here are just a couple I found with a quick google search. I didn't read all the way through them, just enough to get an idea that they MIGHT be worth the effort to study a bit.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/135/120/

http://photoinf.com/General/Guy_Tal/Learning_to_Photograph_the_Landscape_Part_I.html
http://photoinf.com/General/Guy_Tal/Learning_to_Photograph_the_Landscape_Part_II.html

HTH

cmason

As others have stated, there are tons of books and things available. But personally, I like to turn back to the simple lessons, most of which I learned while still a teenager, and btw, I am still working to perfect.

This site is still a classic, and I think this link is actually a mirror of the old content: Kodak Guide to Composition

I look at my photos and try to define subject, framing, and rule of thirds at a minimum. The hard part, at least for me, is to do this before you take the shot. Good planning is really something that differentiates, and is something I find terribly hard.

Good Luck!

CWSkopec

Trevlan wrote:

Anyone can point a camera and click the shutter. Composition is what separates a good picture from a great one. I'm far from an expert, but I do read an aweful lot about photography. Whether it's here in the forum or from books I've purchase. Recently, I dug into the foloowing books: Lighting Photo Workshop by Chris Bucher and Portait and Candid Photography Photo Workshop by Erin Manning. There is another book, of the many in the series, called Composition. Don't know who it's by, but judging from the previous two books; it must be good. They also have a website where you can post pictures and have your 'homeworks" looked at.

One thing that helped me dramatically was participating in the Assignments portion of this forum. I take better landscape photos, but I'm also interested in photographing people. Two completely different areas of focus, but the same concepts can be applied. (Hilighting the subject with minimal to no distractions, choosing a background, angle, etc...)

Here is an example of good composition. The picture leads the viewer's eyes to the Manhattan bridge, wich was the main subject of this picture.



In your composition, you have to make clear and certain what your subject is. In the following photo, the step like building was my main subject. This building is separated from the foreground and background by being properly exposed and everything else left to be dark and fade away.



Hope this helps...

Hmmm... a book titled Composition? I'm hoping that Border's didn't have that one in stock, or I'm going to feel pretty dumb for not seeing it on the shelf!!

I agree with you about Nikolai's assignments!! They've helped me out a ton, I don't get too much of a chance to process and post to those threads, but I have a list of the assigments in my camera bag so I can check while I'm out!

Awesome bridge shot!! And I like the buildings too! Thanks for your thoughts, Frank!

CWSkopec

Scott_Quier wrote:

There's just loads and loads of such information on the net (of course, you have to be careful about which postings you believe:D). Here are just a couple I found with a quick google search. I didn't read all the way through them, just enough to get an idea that they MIGHT be worth the effort to study a bit.

http://www.wetcanvas.com/Articles2/135/120/

http://photoinf.com/General/Guy_Tal/Learning_to_Photograph_the_Landscape_Part_I.html
http://photoinf.com/General/Guy_Tal/Learning_to_Photograph_the_Landscape_Part_II.html

HTH

Thanks for the links Scott! I tried a search here on Dgrin to see if similar questions had come up already, but you'd be amazed how many posts mention composition on a photography website!!

I took a quick look through those links and they look really helpful, I'll have to do a more complete reading this evening after work.

CWSkopec

Molsondog wrote:

Much can be learned from observing others. This site http://photo.net/gallery/photocritique/filter is one that I think showcases some real talent. You may not agree with the exhibitors but from your thought process you will learn a great deal.

WOW!! There sure is some great stuff on display there, Molson!! Thanks!

CWSkopec

cmason wrote:

As others have stated, there are tons of books and things available. But personally, I like to turn back to the simple lessons, most of which I learned while still a teenager, and btw, I am still working to perfect.

This site is still a classic, and I think this link is actually a mirror of the old content: Kodak Guide to Composition

I look at my photos and try to define subject, framing, and rule of thirds at a minimum. The hard part, at least for me, is to do this before you take the shot. Good planning is really something that differentiates, and is something I find terribly hard.

Good Luck!

I'm attempting to do the same things, CMason... look through my shots and pick out which work best... but like you, I'm finding it to be quite difficult BEFORE I press the shutter... I'm getting better... slowly... but on my recent 2 week vacation I took nearly 6,000 shots ( ) and would like to decrease that next time I take a trip without losing the good ones.

Thanks for the link, it's simple and straight foward and perfect for me!! Plus I recognized the mission that's on the 3rd or 4th page!!

Trevlan

If you use photoshop, you can creat a grid that will ease cropping.

Edit, preferences, Guides and slices..., Gridline ever 33.33 percent, Subdivisions 1.

Last week, I took some pictures for my Karate master of the kids class. I took about a hundred photos, and atleast half came out good. You just have to shoot, the more you shoot with composition in mind, your pictures will fall right into place automatically. The rule of the thirds is great to have in mind. My friend once told me about eyepiece attatchments/replacements, that have the rule of the thirds incorporated into it for better shooting and less cropping. You might want to look into that for you model of camera. Can't find one for mine, but I'm looking...

CWSkopec

Trevlan wrote:

If you use photoshop, you can creat a grid that will ease cropping.

Edit, preferences, Guides and slices..., Gridline ever 33.33 percent, Subdivisions 1.

Last week, I took some pictures for my Karate master of the kids class. I took about a hundred photos, and atleast half came out good. You just have to shoot, the more you shoot with composition in mind, your pictures will fall right into place automatically. The rule of the thirds is great to have in mind. My friend once told me about eyepiece attatchments/replacements, that have the rule of the thirds incorporated into it for better shooting and less cropping. You might want to look into that for you model of camera. Can't find one for mine, but I'm looking...

Thanks for the suggestions, Frank. I didn't realize you could set the grid at a percentage... hopefully it'll help me save some poorly composed older shots. Moving forward, hopefully I can minimize the need to crop, but some of the already taken shots might benefit from a healthy bit of cropping!!

EarthDog

Graphic artist by day...
My thought is, if you're a graphic artist by day, you probably already know more about composition than most of us. A lot of the same principles apply to both arts; the use of negative space, placement within the "frame" of the focal point, leading elements, etc. You just need to apply those rules, and a couple others, like depth of field, to what you see in the viewfinder. One problem you may have is that you're so used to using, bending, and breaking those rules on a daily basis that you no longer need to think about them to do your graphic art. You'll get to the same point photographically, too, if you keep at it but, in the beginning, you need to be conscious of them. And, it can be hard to slow down enough to think about such things when you're excited about capturing a subject.

The Kodak site is excellent for real beginners, or as a refresher, but you may find it too simplistic. Of course, the rules really are quite simple, once you know them. And they haven't changed since the Italian Renaissance, when perspective was "invented". Some of them haven't changed since before the pyramids were built. They're probably hardwired into our brains (or would that be software? ).

With your artistic background, you may benefit the most from the simplest, most effective advice I was ever given regarding composition; find a picture you love and figure out why. Landscapes (cityscapes, seascapes...) tend to work best, because they're the most likely to adhere to the rules, and the easiest to analyze for things like the rule of thirds, static/dynamic composition, etc. 9 out of 10 times, the ones that really grab you will adhere to most, if not all, of those rules.

CWSkopec

EarthDog wrote:

My thought is, if you're a graphic artist by day, you probably already know more about composition than most of us. A lot of the same principles apply to both arts; the use of negative space, placement within the "frame" of the focal point, leading elements, etc. You just need to apply those rules, and a couple others, like depth of field, to what you see in the viewfinder. One problem you may have is that you're so used to using, bending, and breaking those rules on a daily basis that you no longer need to think about them to do your graphic art. You'll get to the same point photographically, too, if you keep at it but, in the beginning, you need to be conscious of them. And, it can be hard to slow down enough to think about such things when you're excited about capturing a subject.

The Kodak site is excellent for real beginners, or as a refresher, but you may find it too simplistic. Of course, the rules really are quite simple, once you know them. And they haven't changed since the Italian Renaissance, when perspective was "invented". Some of them haven't changed since before the pyramids were built. They're probably hardwired into our brains (or would that be software? ).

With your artistic background, you may benefit the most from the simplest, most effective advice I was ever given regarding composition; find a picture you love and figure out why. Landscapes (cityscapes, seascapes...) tend to work best, because they're the most likely to adhere to the rules, and the easiest to analyze for things like the rule of thirds, static/dynamic composition, etc. 9 out of 10 times, the ones that really grab you will adhere to most, if not all, of those rules.

Good points, Earthdog!!
I think the biggest thing I struggle with in the transition between the two is that when I'm laying out a page or a cover or an ad I'm not really thinking "Foreground, midground, backgound." Those types of photographic items elude me as I'm taking a shot... Plus I went to school for architecture and am still learning the graphic design profession also

The rule of thirds still translates well, and you're right, I don't even think about it, but looking back at my designs, it's happened anyway. Even going back to architecture the Golden Section (probably the basis for the rule of thirds) was something we studied quite a bit...

Of course, sitting here at my desk I can realize all of this, but when out in the field with my camera... well, it just hasn't become second nature yet!!

I like your idea... I'll make some time to sit and study the photos that I love Thanks for your thoughts!!

OffTopic

Lots of great articles here on photo composition, especially those getting into some of the more advanced principals of golden mean, golden triangles and golden spirals, how your focal length affects composition, color theory applied to landscape photography, etc.

And you might like playing around with this tool, which is one of the links from that page. It lets you upload an image and evaluate it using the golden mean, golden triangle, and golden spiral before determining how to best crop it. I had posted a link to it for someone else a few months ago and people had fun playing with it. It was really interesting to see how some very powerful images lined up almost exactly with one of the golden ratios.

divamum

When I first tried my hand with a 35mm camera, my favorite source for learning about composition was the British photographic magazine Practical Photography (which was a weekly at the time - I was a train commuter and would try to leave work a little early the day it came out so I could buy a copy at the station and read it on the way home!)

I'm hardly one of the forum's experts, but I DO remember quite a lot of what I read about composition in there (particularly about landscape photography). It was clearly presented, practical information.

Googling brought up this website http://www.photoanswers.co.uk/, which appears to be a site for several British photo mags.

Anyway, just another possible source of ideas

CWSkopec

OffTopic wrote:

Lots of great articles here on photo composition, especially those getting into some of the more advanced principals of golden mean, golden triangles and golden spirals, how your focal length affects composition, color theory applied to landscape photography, etc.

And you might like playing around with this tool, which is one of the links from that page. It lets you upload an image and evaluate it using the golden mean, golden triangle, and golden spiral before determining how to best crop it. I had posted a link to it for someone else a few months ago and people had fun playing with it. It was really interesting to see how some very powerful images lined up almost exactly with one of the golden ratios.

That looks like an excellent collection of articles!! Thanks again, Lori!!

And that little tool is pretty awesome too!! Though I've never heard of the "Golden Triangle." And I've never seen the "Golden Spiral" applied to photography either... See? SOOOO much to learn yet!!

Looks like my weekend is booked reading the articles and studying photos with that nifty tool!!

CWSkopec

divamum wrote:

When I first tried my hand with a 35mm camera, my favorite source for learning about composition was the British photographic magazine Practical Photography (which was a weekly at the time - I was a train commuter and would try to leave work a little early the day it came out so I could buy a copy at the station and read it on the way home!)

I'm hardly one of the forum's experts, but I DO remember quite a lot of what I read about composition in there (particularly about landscape photography). It was clearly presented, practical information.

Googling brought up this website http://www.photoanswers.co.uk/, which appears to be a site for several British photo mags.

Anyway, just another possible source of ideas

Thanks Divamum!! That looks like another excellent resourse!!

dlibrach

Yes, composition is one (but definitely not the only) aspect of a photograph that can make it stand out from the crowd. Understanding composition and how it affects the viewer's interaction with an image is extremely important. Simply following the 'rules of photography' does not create a great photograph though. What is more important is understanding them and using them (or even not using them) appropriately and effectively.

One of the great masters of educating photographers on the aspects of creating a 'fine art' image is Alan Broit. His essays cover all aspects of photography from an artistic viewpoint (including composition) and are great reads.

If you haven't come across his site before, you can check it out here. I believe that he offers a DVD for sale (which I have never seen) which specifically covers composition but you can find a lot of information for free around his site. Plus he also wrote an Introduction to Composition for the Luminous Landscape a while back and is a regular contributor of essays there.

Cheers,
D

CWSkopec

dlibrach wrote:

Yes, composition is one (but definitely not the only) aspect of a photograph that can make it stand out from the crowd. Understanding composition and how it affects the viewer's interaction with an image is extremely important. Simply following the 'rules of photography' does not create a great photograph though. What is more important is understanding them and using them (or even not using them) appropriately and effectively.

One of the great masters of educating photographers on the aspects of creating a 'fine art' image is Alan Broit. His essays cover all aspects of photography from an artistic viewpoint (including composition) and are great reads.

If you haven't come across his site before, you can check it out here. I believe that he offers a DVD for sale (which I have never seen) which specifically covers composition but you can find a lot of information for free around his site. Plus he also wrote an Introduction to Composition for the Luminous Landscape a while back and is a regular contributor of essays there.

Cheers,
D

Thanks, DL!! It's the first I've heard of Alan Briot, but there are some amazing images on his site!! I'll have to look through and read the articles at home later this evening, but I'm sure there's alot to learn there given the quality of the images!

jaronna

Didn't read through the entire thread, so sorry in advance if I'm just restating what someone else has said:

I'm not a professional photographer, and a rank ammie with this digital stuff, so I'm not going to say anything concerning photo specific stuff here. I do have a visual arts degree, and composition is a very important part of artwork, so here's my advice from that angle:

Try to think of your compositions along geometric lines -- a good place to learn how geometry provides a basis for composition is to look at and read about how the old (and new) masters created their artwork using geometric principles. Even their work that "appears" off center is actually very well balanced geometrically, and they used geometric principles just as much as light principles to help create the mood they wanted to convey (and that's the other principle, light vis a vis physics, that would be the next thing to study in their compositions). Compare and contrast famous photogs with famous sculptors and painters as well, and how they used geometry and light principles similarly and differently.

So I think a good thing to do is read up on composition in the visual arts -- maybe even going to some art galleries and observing this sort of thing in the "real" after reading up on it is a great idea. While a painting isn't the same as a sculpture, isn't the same as a photograph, there are quite a lot of similarities (especially one major one -- they aren't "real life", the camera comes very close, but it isn't the human eye or brain, so must follow some of the visual art criteria for representative art).

And a day at the art museum can be a lot of fun anyway!