Pro Question About Kids

thdizzy · October 3, 2008

Hello and thanks in advance for any replies...

First let me say that I am a 'landscape' guy but through a client of mine they want me to shoot their little league games.

I have approval through the league to shoot the games and sell images to the parents via a pw protected SmugMug page/section.

What I wanted to know is are there any other legal issues regarding posting and selling the images of kids under 18? I know I can't resell the images for commercial purposes without a release. Also, how can I be sure the images ARE NOT being purchased for commercial purposes by a parent or friend who has access to the pw protected pages.

I know there are probably a lot of answers to my questions and I really appreciate any advice.

davidweaver · October 3, 2008

Congrats on this.
Nice that you got approval as it never hurts.
No issues with the age of the people in the pictures and no issues with pics taken in a public place. Put the two together and you still don't have any issues as I see it.

You don't know what people are going to do with your images once you sell them. That is their issue. Don't worry about it.

You don't need to password protect the page. It may reduce sales, IMHO.

If you want to, you might ad that images are for personal use only and are not to be reproduced and place that in the description. Personally I'd ask people to buy stuff in that slot.

Go make some business cards with the address of the site. You will hand out lots of these at games. <----Very Important.

Don't give away prints. Look at what other event photogs are charging for similiar work in your area. Doubling the cost of a print isn't enough.

Have fun.

thdizzy wrote:

Hello and thanks in advance for any replies...

First let me say that I am a 'landscape' guy but through a client of mine they want me to shoot their little league games.

I have approval through the league to shoot the games and sell images to the parents via a pw protected SmugMug page/section.

What I wanted to know is are there any other legal issues regarding posting and selling the images of kids under 18? I know I can't resell the images for commercial purposes without a release. Also, how can I be sure the images ARE NOT being purchased for commercial purposes by a parent or friend who has access to the pw protected pages.

I know there are probably a lot of answers to my questions and I really appreciate any advice.

thdizzy · October 3, 2008

Thanks David...I reall appreciate the insight.

jfriend · October 3, 2008

davidweaver wrote:

You don't need to password protect the page. It may reduce sales, IMHO.

If you don't password the page, then you will find some parents uncomfortable with their kid's images on the internet. If you identify and/or sort the images by kid's name (something that will definitely help sales), then even more parents will object. If their kid can be found in a Google search, even more will object. It might be one parent a season, it might be more than one.

Whether you have a legal right to do this without pwd protecting or not, I don't know or care. You want to stay in the good graces with both the league and the parents (leads to more sales and future business) and a simple way to address all these issues is to keep the galleries pwd protected.

nipprdog · October 3, 2008

jfriend wrote:

If you don't password the page, then you will find some parents uncomfortable with their kid's images on the internet. If you identify and/or sort the images by kid's name (something that will definitely help sales), then even more parents will object. If their kid can be found in a Google search, even more will object. It might be one parent a season, it might be more than one.

Whether you have a legal right to do this without pwd protecting or not, I don't know or care. You want to stay in the good graces with both the league and the parents (leads to more sales and future business) and a simple way to address all these issues is to keep the galleries pwd protected.

Agreed. This issue has been debated here many times. Here is my take on it from one of those threads;

My .02 on these threads;

IMHO, it's not a question of whether 'we can or can't'.

It's how WE should conduct our business.

I only shoot in leagues where I have their approval, and their support. I don't care whether or not I need it to shoot.

Also, all of my youth galleries are password protected. Again, I don't care if I have to, or not. Parents like private galleries.

I wouldn't do business any other way.

Not directing this at any one in particular, but shooters who simply show up, shoot at will, post on the net publicly, and when they get questioned on it, cry "public domain, 1st amendment,etc", can make us all look bad in the long run.

Again, it's not a question of legality, its a case of courtesy, and professionalism.

Again, IMHO.

thdizzy · October 3, 2008

Thanks Jim and John - I totally agree and wouldn't do it any other way. I actually have 3 boys ages 11,9, and 3 so I hear you loud and clear.

Another question since you guys seem to have done this work before. Besides manually going through every photo and comparing names to #'s, is there an easy way to assign photos? Maybe a quick file name command 'in camera' right after the shot?

jfriend · October 3, 2008

thdizzy wrote:

Thanks Jim and John - I totally agree and wouldn't do it any other way. I actually have 3 boys ages 11,9, and 3 so I hear you loud and clear.

Another question since you guys seem to have done this work before. Besides manually going through every photo and comparing names to #'s, is there an easy way to assign photos? Maybe a quick file name command 'in camera' right after the shot?

I would never have time to do anything during the shoot. For me, the soccer action comes quickly.

I do my name keywording in Adobe Lightroom after the shoot. Fortunately, the shots tend to be grouped (4 shots of this player, 6 shots of that player, etc...). Sometimes I have to tag them unknown1, unknown2 until I find out which is which and inevitably there are two players on a team that I always get mixed up. For those, I end up printing out a good shot of each as a 4x6, label it with their name and keep it on my desk in front of me while doing the keywording.

Keywording them all by name is a lot of work. I don't know if the time is actually worth the sales it helps lead to (that depends on how you value your time I suppose and how quick you get at keywording), but I am quite sure that being able to offer a gallery per player does enhance sales. Parents are much more likely to look at the images they will be interested in buying if they can quickly go to the 1-3 galleries that have the images in they would want rather than a giant gallery full of pictures of the whole team.

thdizzy · October 3, 2008

Totally agree John. I have seen some SmugMug sites where they just mass upload everything (in some cases 900+ photos) and then you have to browse 30 pages to find your image...Just crazy

I also know that when I get my personal photos back from a triathlon via Brightroom, they have all my images on one page as well as a few 'theme/mood' shots from the event.

Thanks again for all the advice.

PixNW · October 3, 2008

I usually group general team photo's in a gallery by team name. The parents that hire me to specifically get images of their children get a password protected gallery of just their childs images.

Something I've done that worked well is I will print up a few images each week, just 4x6's with my info stamped on the back, and give them to the parents. I've just done this with teams that one of my kids play on, and it helps word of mouth advertising quite a bit. Even when I'm taking pictures of my own kids, I get a lot of inquires about shooting others kids. I used Mpix and made up some cards with a screened down football image, with some basic info on the front, and a list of the types of products available on the back. I carry a 8x10 proof book with me that has sample images, as well as some samples of trader cards, magazine covers, etc. I hand out a lot of cards, and when I have time, I'll show folks the proof book. Most people, when they see a well exposed, quality image they realize that it's something they can't easily duplicate themselves. Photography is not my full time thing, but is a serious hobby that has started to help pay for itself. I shoot with all Canon L glass, and the money from the sports shooting makes it easier to justify new lenses and equipment.

Foochar · October 4, 2008

thedizzy wrote:

Totally agree John. I have seen some SmugMug sites where they just mass upload everything (in some cases 900+ photos) and then you have to browse 30 pages to find your image...Just crazy

Keep in mind that if you post more than 500 pictures of an event, and associate some form of identifying data with them (name, number etc.) that you may run into issues with the PhotoCrazy/Peter Wolf patent. Smugmug, in order to avoid litigation, has apparently obtained a license for its users who post less than 500 pictures from a single event. That is one reason why a photographer with 900 images from an event might not keyword the images with identifying data.

I'm not saying that I agree with the patent, I just don't want someone to get blindsided if they post 900 images and keyword them all with the players' names.

thdizzy · October 4, 2008

PixNW wrote:

Photography is not my full time thing, but is a serious hobby that has started to help pay for itself. I shoot with all Canon L glass, and the money from the sports shooting makes it easier to justify new lenses and equipment.

Overall great advice! I am in the same boat that you mentioned above and would love to justify my purchases so my wife stays off my back

Thanks for the sales info too PixNW.

thdizzy · October 4, 2008

Good info to know Travis, thanks!

Jamfore · October 5, 2008

escorted out of the game
Well I was at a youth football at the request of some parents that have seen my work. I put out flyers at the gate and was busy shooting when an angry woman shoved my flyer in my face and told me that I had to pay to shoot. I asked how much and she said 10%. I said that sounds fare and she then said I was too late and that I had to stop. I asked if she wanted me to leave the field and she said yes. So in Short I did, and sat down in the stands to watch the rest of the game. Not shooting mind you. A short time later I was escorted out of the game by 4 individuals. I asked to speak to the person in charge and got a phone number to call her later. Havent decided if I should or not. Obviously by what she was saying she got upset that I was putting pictures on the web (smugmug)yet they have their own website and are putting their pictures on the web. Bottom line she just didnt want me to make any money. What do you think. Should I call them and appologize for the confusion and hopfully get in the game with persmisison next time?

It just happened to be I found out today the League chairmans wife.

thdizzy · October 5, 2008

WOW!!! I'll let others here with more knowledge reply.

However...#1 I plan on always getting permission first. #2 I applaud you for not loosing it with those people you encountered I (foolishly) would have been much less civil :boid

johng · October 5, 2008

Jamfore wrote:

Well I was at a youth football at the request of some parents that have seen my work. I put out flyers at the gate and was busy shooting when an angry woman shoved my flyer in my face and told me that I had to pay to shoot. I asked how much and she said 10%. I said that sounds fare and she then said I was too late and that I had to stop. I asked if she wanted me to leave the field and she said yes. So in Short I did, and sat down in the stands to watch the rest of the game. Not shooting mind you. A short time later I was escorted out of the game by 4 individuals. I asked to speak to the person in charge and got a phone number to call her later. Havent decided if I should or not. Obviously by what she was saying she got upset that I was putting pictures on the web (smugmug)yet they have their own website and are putting their pictures on the web. Bottom line she just didnt want me to make any money. What do you think. Should I call them and appologize for the confusion and hopfully get in the game with persmisison next time?

The important question is: who was the woman? A parent? A representative of the league? No doubt you were treated very rudely and you did the right thing by maintaining professionalism. Her rudeness asside, you need more than parents' permission - it's always best to have league permission. For instance a client just booked me to shoot his son in youth football in another city. I informed him that (in addition to a deposit

) I would not show up unless he obtained permission from the league AND coach for me to shoot and shoot from the sidelines not the stands. He's gotten it from the league president and the coach so now if some 'angry woman' shows up I can explain the league president and coach have approved my being there and she should adress her concerns to them.

Yours is an unfortunate circumstance. Sadly some people are rude. But a little homework can prevent this type of thing. And if the parents want you there badly enough they'll take 15 minutes to send a couple emails or make a phone call and get you permission ahead of time. If they're not willing to take that 15 minutes, quite honestly, they don't want photos that badly and they're not likely to spend time and money to order them off your website. Now, if you're going after a league contract YOU should be making those contacts. But if it's just a single game let the parents do the work for you - chances are they know the necessary people personally.

thdizzy · October 5, 2008

John - In your experience, how difficult/easy is it to get permission from league officials? For individual assignments or contracts.

Thanks!

johng · October 5, 2008

thdizzy wrote:

John - In your experience, how difficult/easy is it to get permission from league officials? For individual assignments or contracts.

Thanks!

In either case the biggest issue is actually getting them to respond. For individual assignments, once you get them to respond (again the best way is someone they know - most don't care about action photographers and there is almost always a contract already for T&I photos) if there's no contract theres no problem. If they have an outfit contracted for action then if that outfit has any business sense it's exclusive and no other pro can shoot and sell.

jfriend · October 5, 2008

johng wrote:

In either case the biggest issue is actually getting them to respond. For individual assignments, once you get them to respond (again the best way is someone they know - most don't care about action photographers and there is almost always a contract already for T&I photos) if there's no contract theres no problem. If they have an outfit contracted for action then if that outfit has any business sense it's exclusive and no other pro can shoot and sell.

If they have an outfit contracted, how does that influence your ability to take pictures of your own kids or their friends in a "not-for-profit" mode?

johng · October 5, 2008

jfriend wrote:

If they have an outfit contracted, how does that influence your ability to take pictures of your own kids or their friends in a "not-for-profit" mode?

Well you should always be able to take pictures of your own kid IF ITS ON PUBLIC PROPERTY. BUT, the league also has the right and obligation for safety reasons to limit who has access to the sidelines. So a parent might find they are allowed to shoot from the stands but not the sidelines.

Of course every situation is unique. The WHOLE point is - communicate! It really doesn't matter so much what I say - i don't run the league your kids or friends' kids play in. Talk to the league and find out what their rules and regulations are and what ability you will have to take photos and from where.

thdizzy · October 6, 2008

johng wrote:

there is almost always a contract already for T&I photos) if there's no contract theres no problem.

I did a search for T&I but couldn't find them. Do you know where they are based out of?

Again...thanks for all the advice John

jbr13 · October 6, 2008

Wasn't there an issue with shooting Little League games. Didn't they copyright or trademark Little League at a national level, and try to stop people from being able to sale photos of any one with a Little League patch on?

J

johng · October 6, 2008

jbr13 wrote:

Wasn't there an issue with shooting Little League games. Didn't they copyright or trademark Little League at a national level, and try to stop people from being able to sale photos of any one with a Little League patch on?

J

Here's a thread from sportsshooter on the subject. Move down until you see Paul Aleese' post. Paul is the official photographer so his insight has a lot more weight than the other opinions on the thread:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=28595

Jamfore · October 6, 2008

Photo attorney
I am sending this to Carolyn Wright "The Photo Attorney" She has a blog and she is an attorney for photographers.

I just don't understand why we can't all play nice and everyone make a few bucks.

Foochar · October 7, 2008

thdizzy wrote:

I did a search for T&I but couldn't find them. Do you know where they are based out of?

Again...thanks for all the advice John

T&I is an abbreviation for "Team & Individual", most leagues have a contract with a local photographer or company to provide the team and individual shots that get sold to the parents, and in the case of schools go into yearbooks etc. Sometimes these contracts will also include rights, possibly exclusive rights, to shoot the actual games etc.

Jamfore · October 7, 2008

Little League
Ok guys I got an answer from carolyn Wright the Lawyer. She did not say much but stated simply that she has read the Little League media guide on their website and states that there is nothing to prevent a person from shooting from the stands.

This doesnt really answer the questions about posting for profit and certainly leaves the subject still wide open but perhaps we should check her blog and see if she writes more about this topic.

johng · October 7, 2008

Jamfore wrote:

Ok guys I got an answer from carolyn Wright the Lawyer. She did not say much but stated simply that she has read the Little League media guide on their website and states that there is nothing to prevent a person from shooting from the stands.

This doesnt really answer the questions about posting for profit and certainly leaves the subject still wide open but perhaps we should check her blog and see if she writes more about this topic.

No offense - but this doesn't change a thing. Any time you want to sell for profit you want the approval of the league in question. Simply get that permission. The only thing their website is stating is they want National notified of the deal. And, this also assumes a team in question is part of Little League (not all recreation leagues are part of that organization). So, before you beat the "its not fair" drum too much - if you really want to shoot for profit why not make some phone calls and send some emails. Don't go hiring attorneys and filing law suits just yet

mercphoto · October 8, 2008

Foochar wrote:

Keep in mind that if you post more than 500 pictures of an event, and associate some form of identifying data with them (name, number etc.) that you may run into issues with the PhotoCrazy/Peter Wolf patent.

The stupidest patent I've seen in a while, and there's lot of stupid ones out there. Patent what people have done for years: keyword tagging and searching. And I'm saddened that nobody decided to fight the patent in court; more saddened that our patent office ever granted it. Surely there's some innovate way to get around that problem though. Football jersey numbers are usually assigned by type of position, correct? Most receivers are in the 80's, QB's tend to be 10's and under, etc. Wonder if you could tag by position instead?

PhotoCrazy.... emphasis on crazy.....

Jamfore · October 8, 2008

johng wrote:

No offense - but this doesn't change a thing. Any time you want to sell for profit you want the approval of the league in question. Simply get that permission. The only thing their website is stating is they want National notified of the deal. And, this also assumes a team in question is part of Little League (not all recreation leagues are part of that organization). So, before you beat the "its not fair" drum too much - if you really want to shoot for profit why not make some phone calls and send some emails. Don't go hiring attorneys and filing law suits just yet

offense not taken. I agree that it really doesnt change anything. I am working on getting permission for the games this Saturday. The bad part is that I was not able to provide a photo for my client and the team that did want me there. It was the home team that made me leave. Have just been nice about the whole thing and plan to keep on shooting. there is enough sports to go around this area.

johng · October 8, 2008

Jamfore wrote:

offense not taken. I agree that it really doesnt change anything. I am working on getting permission for the games this Saturday. The bad part is that I was not able to provide a photo for my client and the team that did want me there. It was the home team that made me leave. Have just been nice about the whole thing and plan to keep on shooting. there is enough sports to go around this area.

Good for you! And the other benefit is photographers are often like plumbers. Someone needs a plumber they'll often pick up the first number they get their hands on. If your contact info happens to be in the hands of the league and the league wants to start looking into having a photog cover the actual games (or look into a replacement) - guess what? Your name is automatically on the list.

The more decision makers that have your name/contact information the better.

Foochar · October 8, 2008

Jamfore wrote:

offense not taken. I agree that it really doesnt change anything. I am working on getting permission for the games this Saturday. The bad part is that I was not able to provide a photo for my client and the team that did want me there. It was the home team that made me leave. Have just been nice about the whole thing and plan to keep on shooting. there is enough sports to go around this area.

A couple things to keep in mind,

1) The home team may have an exclusive contract with another photographer, that photographer may have paid them for exclusive rights, or be providing some other consideration. If the roles were reversed you would be upset with them for allowing another photographer to shoot.

2) If the other team wants you there see if they will press your case prior to the game for you. They know the home team, and are more likely to be able to talk to the right person to get you permission, not saying it will happen every time, but its more likely than "some unknown photographer" getting permission, which when you approach them on your own is who you'll be.

Pro Question About Kids

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