Help with lighting

WingsOfLovePhoto · October 14, 2008

Hey again all. I am doing a preschool shoot for 50 kids individual and group portraits. I will be outdoors in a shady location (God willing

) My set up is similar to the photo here. My question? In prior posts you have all been helping me with my lighting. It was suggested I move my flash off camera but I am unable to totally move it yet because I don't have the adaptors but how can I best manage the light with an sb800 on camera? I have use of a Fong whaletale (which is what was used in this picture) or I have a stroboframe flip. Would either be a better option or should I use both? Could anyone recommend lighting and camera settings? This was shot at F4.5 and 1/125th at focal length 98mm with a 70-200 2.8 lens ISO 200.

Thanks again for your help!

davidweaver · October 15, 2008

Some tips.
Leave your gear where it is as you are comfortable with it and THAT is important.

Turn the iTTL down -1/3 to -2/3. This is because young kid skin is highly reflective. and you will get a wider exposure range than you really want with this subject. For darker skins kids go for -1/3 to 0. Still dark-skinned kids still have very reflective skin so watch your highlights.

In post-processing add some fill-light and manage exposure correction up to about plus/minus 1/2 stop or so.
Play around with blacks and see what happens when you use some recovery but be careful of loss of contrast with too much recovery.

Here is a little tweaking I did to emulate a lower flash fill and a bit of fill compensation. YMMV.

Take a look at the very high end of the histograms on both images.

Qarik · October 15, 2008

I think the lighing looks pretty good as it is. The image is great and just pops off my screen.

sweet caroline · October 15, 2008

Why can't you get your flash off camera? I don't understand. I use my D300 in commander mode and set the built in flash so that it doesn't contribute light to the photo. Then I put my Sb600 flash on another tripod or light stand with a diffuser or an umbrella. I used to just use the Fong Lightsphere, but now I have a softliter II umbrella with diffuser, which didn't really cost much and works wonders.

Anyway, it seems you could put your on camera flash in commander mode and just place your flash off to the side. I've even set my flash on a shelf or table before when I didn't have my extra stand handy.

I prefer my 50mm lens for portraits. Looks like you have the same one. Since you'll have everything pretty much set up and the kids won't be moving, you don't really need a zoom. But it comes down to which lens you are most comfortable with.

Cute picture, subject looks a little overexposed on my Mac screen, but not too bad.

Caroline

LiquidAir · October 15, 2008

One suggestion I have for this particular shot is to rotate your camera the other way (with the grip on the bottom) to put the flash on the other side of your subject. When shooting a 3/4 view portrait, think short lighting for short hair. Note: short light is light coming from the direction your subejct is facing.

Also when shooting with the strobe on camera and a modifier like the whale tale, try using a shorter focal length to bring the strobe (and camera) closer to your subject. That will both soften the light and give you more separation between the light source and your lens axis.

zoomer · October 15, 2008

Shoot with your camera on a tripod and handhold your flash to get it off camera if you need to.
If you are content with people telling you this looks great you will never get to the next level...which from our correspondence it sounds like you really want to get there.
Just go for it!

davidweaver · October 15, 2008

Doing a shoot for 55 kiddos is NOT the place to try something new. And the post doesn't allow for an off camera flash.

The pic is not fine. The highlights are too hot on the pic posted when viewing it on a calibrated monitor. I suggested bringing down the iTTL setting and shooting in RAW for some specific workflow items.

Sure, rotating the camera and getting the flash on top is a good thing. Unless you are practiced with handholding an off-camera flash you will get inconsistent results. Leaving everything on one package, on a tripod if possible, will make your shooting work easier as you will only be concerned about focus, exposure and some exposure compensation for the flash.

Playing around with the other techniques is all fine and great to introduce to a job shoot once you are familiar with them.

zoomer wrote:

Shoot with your camera on a tripod and handhold your flash to get it off camera if you need to.
If you are content with people telling you this looks great you will never get to the next level...which from our correspondence it sounds like you really want to get there.
Just go for it!

Art Scott · October 16, 2008

I see you have 2 flash units and both are nikon....and should work in the commander mode..........

Yes your subject is a tad hot...but that dark hole to the right side is even worse than the little boy being a touch hot....you need to get that 2nd flash into that dark area........and rotating the camera to the right can make a big difference (as suggested by L.A.).......

For portrait, wedding and other group shooting a Flash Bracket like the Stroboframe RL2000 or the RT series, where the camera rotates and the flash stays put is the best.....that may require a nikon off camera flash cable (has a hot shoe(with 1/4-20 hole to mount to flash bracket or light stand) on one end for flash to mount and an adapter on the other to mount to cameras hot shoe, all ittl functions should work perfectly) ......

As for the whale tail.....if you are comfortable shooting with it the nby all means do so.....softer light is better light...........

I do not like being in my subjects face when shooting so using your 70-200 is a very good idea....not sure why you are using iso200 instead of 100....with the D300 you should be able to shoot these even at iso 400 if you're needing more speed and not have any noise except in the dark hole on the right.

SUGGESTION FOR VERY NEAR FUTURE.......................

If you are doing this for a living.....do your self a favor and purchase a hand-held light meter.....this is by far one item than can save your bacon on any out door shoot and also in the studio.....it does not have to be the top of the line but even a Polaris, Shepherd, sekonic(L358) or a gossen...all good, all reliable.........A METER CAN CUT DOWN ON YOUR TIME AT A SHOOT BY A LOT....IT ELIMINATES 99.9% OF ANY GUESS WORK FOR EXPOSURE.....................

AI use inexpensive RADIO SLAVES to fire my strobes.....I shoot in total manual, so i do not need my slave triggers to beable to do anything bedsides fire the flash units.....they are $26 + s/h off ebay (that is one transmitter{sits on top of iso hotshoe] and 2 recievers for the flash units....I purchased 2 kits like this and also 1 kit (my first one) that had 1 transmitter and receiver....I can fire 5 flash units at one time now....these little dandys have 16 channels for yu to choose from......I also use and inexpensive radio slave trigger to fire my camera....
it was around $20 off ebay....all of these have a working distance of between 150ft - 300 ft......

GOOD LUCK

davidweaver · October 16, 2008

Art has some good things to say. I would add reading of the Strobist:
http://strobist.blogspot.com/

I hate the commander mode on the Nikons. It seems to work well for some and not for others.

Art Scott wrote:

I see you have 2 flash units and both are nikon....and should work in the commander mode..........

Yes your subject is a tad hot...but that dark hole to the right side is even worse than the little boy being a touch hot....you need to get that 2nd flash into that dark area........and rotating the camera to the right can make a big difference (as suggested by L.A.).......

For portrait, wedding and other group shooting a Flash Bracket like the Stroboframe RL2000 or the RT series, where the camera rotates and the flash stays put is the best.....that may require a nikon off camera flash cable (has a hot shoe(with 1/4-20 hole to mount to flash bracket or light stand) on one end for flash to mount and an adapter on the other to mount to cameras hot shoe, all ittl functions should work perfectly) ......

As for the whale tail.....if you are comfortable shooting with it the nby all means do so.....softer light is better light...........

I do not like being in my subjects face when shooting so using your 70-200 is a very good idea....not sure why you are using iso200 instead of 100....with the D300 you should be able to shoot these even at iso 400 if you're needing more speed and not have any noise except in the dark hole on the right.

SUGGESTION FOR VERY NEAR FUTURE.......................

If you are doing this for a living.....do your self a favor and purchase a hand-held light meter.....this is by far one item than can save your bacon on any out door shoot and also in the studio.....it does not have to be the top of the line but even a Polaris, Shepherd, sekonic(L358) or a gossen...all good, all reliable.........A METER CAN CUT DOWN ON YOUR TIME AT A SHOOT BY A LOT....IT ELIMINATES 99.9% OF ANY GUESS WORK FOR EXPOSURE.....................

AI use inexpensive RADIO SLAVES to fire my strobes.....I shoot in total manual, so i do not need my slave triggers to beable to do anything bedsides fire the flash units.....they are $26 + s/h off ebay (that is one transmitter{sits on top of iso hotshoe] and 2 recievers for the flash units....I purchased 2 kits like this and also 1 kit (my first one) that had 1 transmitter and receiver....I can fire 5 flash units at one time now....these little dandys have 16 channels for yu to choose from......I also use and inexpensive radio slave trigger to fire my camera....
it was around $20 off ebay....all of these have a working distance of between 150ft - 300 ft......

GOOD LUCK

KoryJ · October 16, 2008

I'm loving the commander mode on my D90. I came from a D50 and only used my 600 on camera but now I'm learning to totally disconnect thanks to David Hobby and seeing some shots around here.

WingsOfLovePhoto · October 18, 2008

Thank you all SOOO much for your advice. My shoot is finished for the most part and things went pretty well. I shot into the shade, adjusted my camera settings quite different than I usually do. I ended up putting my SB800 on a flash bracket and using the Fong but dialed down the flash mostly to -1. I still had some problems with washed out skin...as somebody said little kids have translucent skin but was mostly able to fix in photoshop and added a warming filter. The reason I couldn't get the flash off camera is that I didnt' have a flash adaptor for my light stands and I really wasn't able to handhold because of the kids being so busy. When I am able to get the flash off do I use the diffuser, the bounce card or straight at the subject? where do I position the stand in relation to the subject? I thought senior shoots were over but am doing 2 more next week so I have to keep plugging away at getting this right.

Art...thanks for all the advice. Just some answers to the questions...

some of the dark in the picture "the black spot is mostly due to a vignette I did. I usually do that will all my outside pictures. I never noticed how the black made the subject look hot.

I actually have a sekonic lightmeter. I just haven't figured out how to use it properly. It never gives me readings that make any sense. I don't know if I am using it wrong or it really never worked in the first place but I try it anyway all the time. When I metered for this shoot it gave me F4.0 and 1/500th while on ISO 200. The pictures were really dark with the histogram mostly on the left. I actually ended up doing 3.5 and 1/250 which gave me a better exposure. I hope to really get it right someday though!

I have radio slaves for my indoor strobes. Can they be used on the flashes do you know?

I always shoot these on a tripod as I am getting old and shaky and my lens is so heavy! even with the VR I get shake sometime! I always use iTTL and shoot in RAW exclusively. Here is an example from the shoot. Thanks for looking more cc welcome!

After posting this picture it seems to look "hot" on my pc but when done on my calibrated MAC, not so much. Strange the differences in monitor screens

sweet caroline · October 18, 2008

When I have my flash off camera, I usually use the umbrella w/diffuser, now that I have it. I used to use the Fong lightsphere. I've been able to move the umbrella around pretty successfully, just talking to the kids as I did it, and moving very quickly. Sometimes I placed it right by my subject just out of the frame of my photo and sometimes I backed it up a bit. I varied the position of my camera and of my flash to get some different looks. I'm still learning what I like best and how my flash acts with different skin tones. So, the great thing about using the digital is that I can see some instant results and adjust.

If you want to see my latest school portraits, check out my ACE and St. David's 2008-2009 albums on smugmug. This was the first time I've used the D300 (which I got in August) for this kind of thing, and the first time I'd ever used my flash in the umbrella. It's the second year I've done both entire schools, although the spring before I did the kinder at my school when my daughter was graduating and a dozen kids at my older daughter's school. I still have a lot to learn.

Caroline
http://carolinepoe.smugmug.com/

Help with lighting

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