Please help - how to select camera + glass for sports photography ?

neuron · October 17, 2008

Hi,

First of all thanks for this forum where is so much interesting to read

Why I want to buy:
We have a dog ( http://neuron.smugmug.com/gallery/5840250_ArY2H/1/362353455_mULC2#373317406_QHtUk ) and we attend "agility" dog racing. My trusty Canon S2 IS does not seem to be good enough
- AF is slow, I have to focus to same static object and wait for the dog to come
- Images are very blurry when shot indoors

So I thought that I would spend some money on new toy, where I hope to get better (more sharp) photographs.

It's hobby, so I want to spend limited amount of money

What I'm looking for:
- camera with fast AF focus
- not fullframe, it's too expensive and images are ridiculously big (5MP from my S2 IS quite OK).
- "fast" glass
- used camera (and glass) is ok
- if possible camera without strong de-noising filter. We have a black dog, where details are very subtle over it's fur (I don't know how to express this correctly, but I don't want one black stain instead of fur on the photograph - http://neuron.smugmug.com/gallery/5657373_osoCB#348267145_E2kWV )
- USM lens for fast AF

What I'm unsure about:
- rapid fire. I'm not sure if 8FPS is a great advantage over 4FPS (for example). I think that I would rather rely on my ability to press the shutter at the moment I want to capture
- high iso - low noise. I mean it would be great to have as little noise as possible, but I will be catching running dogs and some grain won't ruin the action I guess
- camera manufacturer. I'm not sure if I won't want to upgrade in the future, and in that case I would want to be able to use my current lens (es?)
- camera sealing. With my current camera I'm riding on a bycicle, snowboarding and even swimming. I'm not used to be nice to my camera :-/
- stabilised lens - My S2 IS has 'panning stabilization mode' which is nice. I'm not sure if any DSLR/lense can do something like that. So I guess the stabilisation will be off even in low light situations indoors. But I don't have experience with this. And no stabilisation = cheaper lens
- length of the lens. The dog won't be more than 30-40m away from me. And I don't need to shoot details of his teeth while jumping. My 12x zoom on S2 IS seems to roughly what I need, but I don't know how to convert that to lens length ( 12 (zoom) / 1.5 (crop factor) * 50 (human eye "length") = 400. So much ? )
- lens to be EF. If I don't have full frame sensor, I could use smaller / lighter (cheaper ?) lens. Or not ?

What I don't care about:
- camera size. I guess that my primary camera will be S2 IS, since current DSLRs are too big to carry it with me all the time. This camera will be used mostly for dog races, where we are going with car anyway
- lens to be more expensive than camera. There are going to be new cameras every few months, but I hope to have the lens for some time.

Currently I'm deciding between Canon 20d and more expencive glass, or 40d and cheaper glass. Nikons seems to be more expensive. I don't know much about other brands. Though canons are not set to stone, just that the name has good sound

Deciding about lens is worse. There's so many options available, so I don't know where to start and what to look at. AF performance is usually not described anywhere ...

Any comments welcome

Sorry for the long post

Have good light

--
neuron

ziggy53 · October 17, 2008

Neuron,

AF speed and accuracy are very important factors and do occur as a result of a coordinated effort between the AF motor and mechanism of the lens and the AF sensor and control unit of the camera.

Plus in a dSLR you tend to have 2 different types of autofocus. In Canon cameras these tend to be called:

Instantaneous "One Shot" mode.
Predictive AI Servo, often abbreviated to just "AI Servo" mode.

The AI Servo mode tends to be more valuable than One Shot mode for faster moving objects, but it requires some time for the AF processor to analyze the subject and correctly predict focus at the time of exposure. Erratic movement may never be anticipated by any AF system.

Outside of the Canon 1D MKII cameras, the fastest and most accurate camera I have tested is the Canon 40D. Used with both the Canon EF 70-200mm, f2.8L USM and the Sigma 50-500mm, f/4-6.3 EX APO HSM I believe it would be appropriate for your needs. By far I would recommend the 70-200mm, f2.8 "L".

I believe that the 40D has a somewhat improved AF versus the 20D/30D.

Bob Atkins has evaluated the Canon 40D autofocus here:

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/digital/canon_eos_40D_review_4.html

swintonphoto · October 17, 2008

Ziggy's advice is great as always.

I can comment on another consideration: the Olympus E-3.
It is packed with features, is a tank built body, and is not too bulky. It has built-in image stabilization in the body that can do panning as well. Olympus boasts the in-body image stabilization gives you 2-5 stops of stability. Zuiko lenses (the name Olympus uses for their lens line) are nothing short of stunning. They recently developed some new lenses with what they boast as the worlds fastest auto focus system (Called supersonic wave drive or SWD). There is a fabulous SWD 2 lens combo you can get to compliment the E-3 that would work as a fabulous sports package.

E-3 camera body: http://www.olympusamerica.com/e3/index.asp
12-60mm f/2.8-4.0 SWD: http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/lens/dea/products/lens/12_60_28/index.asp
50-200 f/2.8-3.5 SWD: http://www.olympusamerica.com/cpg_section/lens/dea/products/lens/50_200_28/index.asp

kini62 · October 17, 2008

Used 40D. They're selling for pretty cheap these days since the 50D came out. I assume the agility events are daytime and outdoors. If so you can get a 70-200/4 L new or used and save some money and still get the fast AF speed.

You could get both of these used for $1100-$1200 if you look around. The lens is going to be the hardest to find.

Used 70-200/2.8s are about $850-$900.

The Sigma 70-200/2.8 is another option and on the used market can be had for $600 or less. I personally would not buy the Sigma. I'm having a horrible experience with Sigma and their "service". It's horrid to put it kindly.

Gene

neuron · October 18, 2008

Hi,

Why am I not surprised that Ziggy was the first one to comment

I haven't seen AF system discussed in such detail elsewhere. I hoped that d20 would be the same as d40. Though I think that 40d + 20-200/2.8 might be more than what I would like to spend at the moment. But since it's winter coming, agility will be indoors, I'll maybe go for better glass rather than better AF.

Regarding Olympus, I never had one in hands, but from specs it looks like decent camera. Don't you have by any chances some photographs in low light with short time ? Unfortunately I don't know anyone in my vicinity having it handy. But the price looks very appealing.

Thank you for your kind comments !

--
neuron

xchangx · October 22, 2008

neuron wrote:

Hi,

Why am I not surprised that Ziggy was the first one to comment I haven't seen AF system discussed in such detail elsewhere. I hoped that d20 would be the same as d40. Though I think that 40d + 20-200/2.8 might be more than what I would like to spend at the moment. But since it's winter coming, agility will be indoors, I'll maybe go for better glass rather than better AF.

Regarding Olympus, I never had one in hands, but from specs it looks like decent camera. Don't you have by any chances some photographs in low light with short time ? Unfortunately I don't know anyone in my vicinity having it handy. But the price looks very appealing.

Thank you for your kind comments !

--
neuron

I have a 30D and the 24-70 2.8 L lens, I would agree with the others that either the 70-200 2.8 or 4 L will work for you. the f4 if mainly outdoors and the 2.8 for indoors.

Here's a link fo a dog show I shot:
http://www.michaelchangphotography.com/gallery/5165837_JQCVT#312894730_Z94QV

It was the first time I messed with the AISERVO setting so some of the dog pictures are OOF, but the AF worked fine otherwise and was able to keep up with the dogs.

ziggy53 · October 22, 2008

xchangx wrote:

I have a 30D and the 24-70 2.8 L lens, I would agree with the others that either the 70-200 2.8 or 4 L will work for you. the f4 if mainly outdoors and the 2.8 for indoors.

Here's a link fo a dog show I shot:
http://www.michaelchangphotography.com/gallery/5165837_JQCVT#312894730_Z94QV

It was the first time I messed with the AISERVO setting so some of the dog pictures are OOF, but the AF worked fine otherwise and was able to keep up with the dogs.

Xchangx, welcome to the Digital Grin.

Thanks for the comments and samples.

neuron · October 22, 2008

xchangx wrote:

I have a 30D and the 24-70 2.8 L lens, I would agree with the others that either the 70-200 2.8 or 4 L will work for you. the f4 if mainly outdoors and the 2.8 for indoors.

Here's a link fo a dog show I shot:
http://www.michaelchangphotography.com/gallery/5165837_JQCVT#312894730_Z94QV

Some nice pics there ! What a pity that the background is not separated better from the dog.

xchangx wrote:

It was the first time I messed with the AISERVO setting so some of the dog pictures are OOF, but the AF worked fine otherwise and was able to keep up with the dogs.

What AISERVO stands for ? Artificial Intelligence Servo maybe ?

I visited shop and tried 40d + 70-200 F2.8 briefly. AF, man that's quick ! I'm looking forward to having it in my hands and playing with it in real situations.

Thanks for the support !

dmax007 · October 28, 2008

Good luck with your decision! It is good to see that you are putting alot of weight on your glass decision. I shoot Nikon so I can't speak to canon equipment. However, the new sensons perform much better then older ones. I would shy away from an older body. If you do purchase an older body because of price, you will likely have buyers remorse in the near future.

Regarding your concern about large files: The Nikon D700, which is a full frame camera, allow users to shoot in DX crop mode. This reduces the image from 12mp to 5mp. You also get the advantage of the crop factor.

The new canon 50D MKII may be an option to consider. The high ISO images are unbelivable.

By being able to shoot at ISO 6400, in a crude way you have converted a 5.6 lens to a 2.8 lens.

Just a thought!!

neuron · November 3, 2008

Hi dmax !

Sorry for the long delay. I bought camera and went on holiday

dmax007 wrote:

Good luck with your decision! It is good to see that you are putting alot of weight on your glass decision. I shoot Nikon so I can't speak to canon equipment. However, the new sensons perform much better then older ones. I would shy away from an older body. If you do purchase an older body because of price, you will likely have buyers remorse in the near future.

At the end I went for Canon 40d. I found one nice "secondhand" (well, two months old, with 500 as shutter count). I could not resist that

I went for the 70-200 f/2.8 L glass. New one. Ouch

dmax007 wrote:

Regarding your concern about large files: The Nikon D700, which is a full frame camera, allow users to shoot in DX crop mode. This reduces the image from 12mp to 5mp. You also get the advantage of the crop factor.

That's feature I didn't know about beforehand. But D700 seems to be 3x as expensive (I just quickly checked local second-hand forum). But you get what you pay for.

dmax007 wrote:

The new canon 50D MKII may be an option to consider. The high ISO images are unbelivable.

By being able to shoot at ISO 6400, in a crude way you have converted a 5.6 lens to a 2.8 lens.

As I said, you get what you pay for

Frankly the ISO 1600 looks very useful from the 40d. You can see the noise on monitor when on 100% zoom, but on printed photograph I would not care really.

Thanks everyone for your kind comments. I am really glad that the pain of uncertainity is behind me, and I can just take photographs.

Just few test images are at http://neuron.smugmug.com/gallery/6361185_SUvuD . It was my first day with the camera, so I screwed color balance, ISO sensitivity (I shot ISO 1600 on nice sunny day). I was just blindly turning EVF correction up and down. And the composition of images is bad in many cases. So this is just showcase of what newbie can do with the camera and lens.

Thank you again for your help. Hopefully see you in sports section !

Please help - how to select camera + glass for sports photography ?

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