2nd Shooter Question

geospatial_junkie · October 22, 2008

Recently, I got invited by the bride to be a second shooter at an upcoming wedding. Needless to say, the main photographer was not impressed, but she conceded as the bride wanted 2 shooters instead of one.

The photographer wants full copyright of my images. I don't have a problem giving her selling-rights to the photos, but for her to say she took them and not wanting me to use them for my portfolio... yes I have a problem.

Should this be an issue or is it fairly standard? What kind of experiences can people share and what should I be aware of to cover my butt? :dunno

Swartzy · October 22, 2008

A sticky situation. First off, if the bride hired a professional and desires a 2nd shooter, then it's the professional's responsibility to provide one....whether it be you or another. Secondly, if you are doing this for a favor of the bride, then it is your responsibility to not get in the way of the paid professional. Thirdly, the paid pro has no right to your images....period...not unless they are going to pay for them. If the pro "hires" you, your images should still remain your property but allowed to use them for the package...you still own the rights to your shots.

There are a few photogs out there that insist that you can't use the image you take for your portfolio....don't even consider working for those types. What is the killer, is they wish to pay some nominal per hour fee then have the audacity to suggest that they "own" the images AND you can't use them for your benefit.

I can't imagine shooting a wedding without a 2nd.....the expectations would have to be spelled out in writing in my book.

Sam · October 22, 2008

Trever,

I took a look at your website, and you have some great shots there!

Contrary to Swartzy, this situation is not just sticky, but nuts, and untenable. Not very many real professional wedding photographers would accept this.

You say she invited you................so I need to know, is she a friend? Are you doing this for free as a gift? Did she hire you? Are you being paid?

If the bride is trying to hire two different photographers you should decline, this will not lead to a positive outcome.

If on the other hand you are simply shooting as a gift, then stay out of the way of the pro, take photojournalist style shots the pro won't get. I would also communicate this with the pro.

Copyright law in Canada is different then in the US, so I can't comment on that.

Sam

Justiceiro · October 22, 2008

geospatial_junkie wrote:

Recently, I got invited by the bride to be a second shooter at an upcoming wedding. Needless to say, the main photographer was not impressed, but she conceded as the bride wanted 2 shooters instead of one.

The photographer wants full copyright of my images. I don't have a problem giving her selling-rights to the photos, but for her to say she took them and not wanting me to use them for my portfolio... yes I have a problem.

Should this be an issue or is it fairly standard? What kind of experiences can people share and what should I be aware of to cover my butt?

Name her a price for the copyright that is astronomical. Then see what happens.

urbanaries · October 22, 2008

As a "lead" photographer, I wouldn't ever propose that a 2nd shooter not retain the shots for their portfolio.

But let's play devil's advocate for a minute. If I have a second shooter, I want that person to be chosen by me and working for me. I don't want to be responsible for someone getting in my way, screwing up my equipment...I have enough trouble being diplomatic to the guests and wedding party, I don't need to be worrying about offending one of the guests working for me! What if that person was really screwing up my work? I would have to choose between hurting their feelings and doing a good job. If it was my "employee", I'd have no problem telling them what I needed, but I would be on eggshells in an agreement like you proposed. Weddings are hectic, stressful, require a marathon-like ability to think and react and anticipate all with a smile on your face. I don't need to buy headaches.

Doesn't sound like the pro has had any say in the matter and that's unfortunate. They were chosen on their ability to do the job professionally and it can be frustrating to all of a sudden have a stranger be your accomplice when you have had no ability to train them or plan them into your day. I had a client propose casually in a potential sale meeting about their nephew who likes to take photos, that he would be my second shooter for the day. I said I cared too much about their wedding day photography to agree to that without the chance to train the person. They were a little shocked but understood after I explained a bit, hired me anyway, and I'll be hiring my own second shooter (if he wants the job, he has yet to contact me).

Second point, one which is probably more of a motive: If the "second shooter" is not someone contracted by me, is expected to have all access to the shots "we" do as professionals, this person the brides friend AND I am counting on print sales to justify me even being there....you can bet I'd try to cover myself.

It's about who will benefit. I can't say I blame the photog for making it very unattractive to you.

geospatial_junkie · October 23, 2008

Sam wrote:

Trever,

I took a look at your website, and you have some great shots there!

Contrary to Swartzy, this situation is not just sticky, but nuts, and untenable. Not very many real professional wedding photographers would accept this.

You say she invited you................so I need to know, is she a friend? Are you doing this for free as a gift? Did she hire you? Are you being paid?

If the bride is trying to hire two different photographers you should decline, this will not lead to a positive outcome.

If on the other hand you are simply shooting as a gift, then stay out of the way of the pro, take photojournalist style shots the pro won't get. I would also communicate this with the pro.

Copyright law in Canada is different then in the US, so I can't comment on that.

Sam

Thank you Sam!

Actually, my fiance's friend at work is getting married. She saw my site and asked the photographer to use me as a second shooter. Initially, the other photographer didn't want to, but now she is afraid that that if she doesn't do what the bride asks, she might not get the shots she wants.

Its her first time shooting a wedding solo. Incidently, I got an interesting call the other day from her. I wasn't home but my fiance took the call and said it was the other photographer and she wanted to know what equipment I shot with. I guess when my fiance told her I shool dual D700's with the gamut of 14-24, 24-70, 70-200 2.8's... she became really defensive.

I really don't want to get into a pissing (can I say that here?) match, I mean I couldn't care less if someone shot D3's or Haselblads. Incidently, this will be the 3rd time I've been involved in a wedding so my wedding experience isn't exactly high on the totem pole either!

By the way, my name is Will (the whole Trevor thing is an inside joke... probably should remove it).

geospatial_junkie · October 23, 2008

Swartzy wrote:

A sticky situation. First off, if the bride hired a professional and desires a 2nd shooter, then it's the professional's responsibility to provide one....whether it be you or another. Secondly, if you are doing this for a favor of the bride, then it is your responsibility to not get in the way of the paid professional. Thirdly, the paid pro has no right to your images....period...not unless they are going I pay for them. If the pro "hires" you, your images should still remain your property but allowed to use them for the package...you still own the rights to your shots.

There are a few photogs out there that insist that you can't use the image you take for your portfolio....don't even consider working for those types. What is the killer, is they wish to pay some nominal per hour fee then have the audacity to suggest that they "own" the images AND you can't use them for your benefit.

I can't imagine shooting a wedding without a 2nd.....the expectations would have to be spelled out in writing in my book.

Apparently, the primary shooter wants me to follow the men around for the day in order to get all the groom shots while she focuses on the bride. That's ok by me as I am fairly easy going. She won't be taking those shots though, I will. I think I will have to educate her on what "plagerism" means.

geospatial_junkie · October 23, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

As a "lead" photographer, I wouldn't ever propose that a 2nd shooter not retain the shots for their portfolio.

But let's play devil's advocate for a minute. If I have a second shooter, I want that person to be chosen by me and working for me. I don't want to be responsible for someone getting in my way, screwing up my equipment...I have enough trouble being diplomatic to the guests and wedding party, I don't need to be worrying about offending one of the guests working for me! What if that person was really screwing up my work? I would have to choose between hurting their feelings and doing a good job. If it was my "employee", I'd have no problem telling them what I needed, but I would be on eggshells in an agreement like you proposed. Weddings are hectic, stressful, require a marathon-like ability to think and react and anticipate all with a smile on your face. I don't need to buy headaches.

Doesn't sound like the pro has had any say in the matter and that's unfortunate. They were chosen on their ability to do the job professionally and it can be frustrating to all of a sudden have a stranger be your accomplice when you have had no ability to train them or plan them into your day. I had a client propose casually in a potential sale meeting about their nephew who likes to take photos, that he would be my second shooter for the day. I said I cared too much about their wedding day photography to agree to that without the chance to train the person. They were a little shocked but understood after I explained a bit, hired me anyway, and I'll be hiring my own second shooter (if he wants the job, he has yet to contact me).

Second point, one which is probably more of a motive: If the "second shooter" is not someone contracted by me, is expected to have all access to the shots "we" do as professionals, this person the brides friend AND I am counting on print sales to justify me even being there....you can bet I'd try to cover myself.

It's about who will benefit. I can't say I blame the photog for making it very unattractive to you.

I expected her to make it unattractive for me and there are many ways to do so. Thats not the issue. The issue is the copyright thing.

Her logic:

My images = Her images for portfolio and sales

My logic

My images = Her sales and my portfolio

What she is proposing is not only wrong, but unethical. Taking credit for someone elses work is poor character and misleading. I've sent her an email and told her as such and that this was not a job I needed. It will be up to her to explain to the bride why we can't work together

and let her make her own judgement. She's too busy to be bothered by this type of thing.

heatherfeather · October 23, 2008

I had a similar situation... I did a pro bono wedding for a close family member. Just 2 days before the wedding, the bride informed me that they had another person lined up to shoot as well. I was still to be the primary, but had no idea if the other photographer knew about me, or anything. I asked for phone numbers and called up the other photographer and had a conversation with them about what they were thinking their role in photographing the wedding would be and scheduling issues and conflicts. It turned out to be a girl fresh out of HS that the B & G were giving a chance to increase portfolio. She was fine (out of the way and tasteful) at the ceremony and reception, but I sure spent a few hours prior to the wedding sweating about the situation and all that could go haywire. It was crazy and I don't wish that situation on anyone! So all this to say, I guess I have been on the other end of the stick, and so long as you are respectful of the the other photographer (and they with you) you should be fine and dandy.

urbanaries · October 23, 2008

After knowing more....I don't know why she didn't hire you in the first place, if this is the other shooter's first wedding, hopefully she isn't paying her competitive rates?

It sounds like the bride's getting one heckuva deal. But hopefully you and the other photog can work out the copyright issue and both come out ahead, financially and socially. Maybe even work together in the future.

Frankly, I am keen to brides playing people against each other for their own selfish (and cheap) benefit...but that's just me.

2nd Shooter Question

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