Brother-in-law 3 times removed

mmmatt · November 9, 2008

Shot a friends wedding a couple weeks ago. The groom was my ex-wife's sisters husband (my former brother-in-law) then he divorced (once removed) then I divorced (twice removed) then he remarried to make it 3 times removed! She is a bartender at a bar that I have been going to most of my legal life.

Anyways, they are both good friends and I knew just about everyone at the wedding. Great time and a fairly nice day considering it was the end of October in Wisconsin!

Here are a few highlights:

01

02

03

04

05

06

07

08

09

I have a friend, Cate, from photo school who has been wanting to get into weddings so I brought her along to shoot 2nd for me. She had a fair amount of technical issues, but she got some great shots. Here were my favorites from her.

10

11

12

as always, any c&c is welcome!

Matt

Shima · November 10, 2008

I really love your framing and processing on these.

4, 5, and 6 are probably my favorites of all the ones you posted.

9 is a pretty fun shot, though the color seems a bit "cool" maybe a bit on the blue side? not sure if it's just me though

mmmatt · November 10, 2008

Shima wrote:

I really love your framing and processing on these.

4, 5, and 6 are probably my favorites of all the ones you posted.

9 is a pretty fun shot, though the color seems a bit "cool" maybe a bit on the blue side? not sure if it's just me though

Thanks Shima,

Yes... I'm not sure where my eye was on #9. Last of the bunch and I guess I got sloppy. Fixed now though.

Shima · November 10, 2008

mmmatt wrote:

Thanks Shima,

Yes... I'm not sure where my eye was on #9. Last of the bunch and I guess I got sloppy. Fixed now though.

Looks TONS better now, good job on fixing the WB

mmmatt · November 10, 2008

Shima wrote:

Looks TONS better now, good job on fixing the WB

yeah... thank God for RAW!!!

sherijohnson · November 11, 2008

Glad you mentioned she is a bartender, because the shot of the bride pouring the beer at the tap is really a cool shot knowing that about her.

urbanaries · November 11, 2008

Really like #1 and #4 in this series. I like what you did with the backlight on the bride. the shots of the little girls are precious. Very nice lighting here, bet the bride would have looked pretty here, too!

Very nice ring shot #7...I really like the abstraction here.

Love your second shooters' #11. shot. It's a little dark, but I think has tons of potential. I really like what she was going for, very good eye.

One thing I noticed, your brides' cheeks and lips looks washed out although she does appear to have eye makeup on. Shay (how we miss him!) had a great sheet in his client info packet where he talked about the trendy "nude" lip style and how it's great in person, but photographs terribly. Color is their (and our) friend!

mmmatt · November 11, 2008

urbanaries wrote:

Really like #1 and #4 in this series. I like what you did with the backlight on the bride. the shots of the little girls are precious. Very nice lighting here, bet the bride would have looked pretty here, too!

Very nice ring shot #7...I really like the abstraction here.

Love your second shooters' #11. shot. It's a little dark, but I think has tons of potential. I really like what she was going for, very good eye.

One thing I noticed, your brides' cheeks and lips looks washed out although she does appear to have eye makeup on. Shay (how we miss him!) had a great sheet in his client info packet where he talked about the trendy "nude" lip style and how it's great in person, but photographs terribly. Color is their (and our) friend!

Thanks for the comments. The bride has bad acne and wore no makeup except for shiney eye stuff. It was a nightmare in that regard. I did a LOT of touch up on her face. She also had a terrible shine on her cheeks, chin, and nose. I bought a plugin called "shine-off" which helped a lot and is easy to use as long as you do your b&w conversions afterwords.

I have since deceided that I will be going over makeup and complection in meetings with my brides at contract signing. I spent WAY to much time in post on this set (1035 photos delivered) and I will probably add disclaimers or additional cost to those brides with this type of complection. I have never had a situation like this! Ah well, live and learn. I am also looking for a good makeup to keep in my case, but I have only had one suggestion and that was mineral veil. It is translucent and can go over any skin color to cut shine, but I have read since, that it causes rashes for those with acne...

As for shooting the bride by where I shot the flower girls... that was a moment in time and I had no idea how good those were until I got them home. This was before the reception and the girls were just playing around behind the coatroom counter. Someone had the door open to bring some things in and poof I had perfect light! Maybe next time it will register that this is gold!

Matt

divamum · November 11, 2008

Some bits and pieces on the makeup stuff - hope it's ok to jump in and post these! Gleaned from working with stage and photo makeup artists over the years (and years of being a girl! lol) Feel free to use or ignore as is helpful (or not, as the case might be

- IMO people need to know that ALL photos need some kind of makeup if only to keep down shine (as you say). Even if it's only lightweight powder and lips to even out complexion and bump up colour, that will really help.

- The Bare Minerals (or similar) products might not be a bad idea to keep with you as they work with a wide range of skin tones BUT even though they're one of the more hypoallegenic products, some people are allergic to the mica in them (like me.I can't wear the stuff AT ALL without a barrier layer underneath it). That old-fashioned loose powder you can get is good for shine management too (I forget the name now - comes in an old-fashioned cardboard powder box and is super cheap at drugstores/Walmart etc). You can buy disposable puffs/sponges in bulk at a beauty supply store and ease the "not my own makeup" thing - a lot of ladies are twitchy about using anything they don't own - understandable, particularly if they have sensitive or problem skin. HOWEVER... seems entirely reasonable to include sugggestions in your contract/packet and point out that without makeup there's only just so much you can do in photoshop....

- basic principles: light colours make something prominent (ie highlights on brows, cheeks and nose), dark recedes (cheek contours, jawlines, eye-sockets ie eyeshadow). This isn't such a big deal for colour shots, but can be in B&W. Biggest glitch in B&W makeup IME is using a colour with some shine/irrridescence/pearlescent quality - no matter how dark the colour is in reality, once it's converted to B&W it will act as a REFLECTANT and thus a highlight rather than a shadow (this would be the biggest problem in eyeshadows). Until I worked with a TV makeup artist, I can't tell you how many times I made this mistake when doing my own makeup for photos and couldn't understand why no matter HOW heaviliy I applied my (pearlescent) dark brown, it never looked like I had on anything at all!

- colours: trendy colours will ultimately ALWAYS date a photograph (remember the 70s blue eyeshadow look? Instantly identifiable). Neutrals will always be more classic and, imo, look better anyway. Browns, soft mauves, taupes, and graiges for eyes, roses, peaches and corals for cheeks work for just about everybody (depending on their skin tone, of course!). Bright colours seldom work except for lips. Brunettes can often get away with purple/dark grey eyeshadows and liners, but for many other colourings they'll just look like they have bruises if they lean too far to purple.

- lip colours: if memory serves, dark red lipstick in BW photographs nearly-black, as does magenta. Browns look more like red, and pinks will look like nothing at all. Easily adjusted in PS these days, of course, but if you're looking to cut some processing time out of the procedure....

- eyeliner: the current "closed eye" liner look that's in fashion is not flattering in photos for most people - it tends to make the eyes look small and hard. Liner in general is most flattering if it only extends inwards approximately to the center of the iris, and does NOT close at the outer corner of the eye (extend beyond the natural eye above, and only just to the corner below). Browns, blacks, greys work better than blues/greens/purples (that neutral colour thing again).

- noses can be narrowed (darker colour used as contour down the sides), and double chins can be minimised (darker colour brushed under the chin to make the neck recede and the jawline stand out more). Easy, and v. useful sometimes!

Obviously, for weddings and the like you don't get to call the makeup shots (!), but perhaps some of these bits and pieces will be useful at some point. Hope it helps!

urbanaries · November 11, 2008

divamum wrote:

Some bits and pieces on the makeup stuff - hope it's ok to jump in and post these! Gleaned from working with stage and photo makeup artists over the years (and years of being a girl! lol) Feel free to use or ignore as is helpful (or not, as the case might be

- IMO people need to know that ALL photos need some kind of makeup if only to keep down shine (as you say). Even if it's only lightweight powder and lips to even out complexion and bump up colour, that will really help.

- The Bare Minerals (or similar) products might not be a bad idea to keep with you as they work with a wide range of skin tones BUT even though they're one of the more hypoallegenic products, some people are allergic to the mica in them (like me.I can't wear the stuff AT ALL without a barrier layer underneath it). That old-fashioned loose powder you can get is good for shine management too (I forget the name now - comes in an old-fashioned cardboard powder box and is super cheap at drugstores/Walmart etc). You can buy disposable puffs/sponges in bulk at a beauty supply store and ease the "not my own makeup" thing - a lot of ladies are twitchy about using anything they don't own - understandable, particularly if they have sensitive or problem skin. HOWEVER... seems entirely reasonable to include sugggestions in your contract/packet and point out that without makeup there's only just so much you can do in photoshop....

- basic principles: light colours make something prominent (ie highlights on brows, cheeks and nose), dark recedes (cheek contours, jawlines, eye-sockets ie eyeshadow). This isn't such a big deal for colour shots, but can be in B&W. Biggest glitch in B&W makeup IME is using a colour with some shine/irrridescence/pearlescent quality - no matter how dark the colour is in reality, once it's converted to B&W it will act as a REFLECTANT and thus a highlight rather than a shadow (this would be the biggest problem in eyeshadows). Until I worked with a TV makeup artist, I can't tell you how many times I made this mistake when doing my own makeup for photos and couldn't understand why no matter HOW heaviliy I applied my (pearlescent) dark brown, it never looked like I had on anything at all!

- colours: trendy colours will ultimately ALWAYS date a photograph (remember the 70s blue eyeshadow look? Instantly identifiable). Neutrals will always be more classic and, imo, look better anyway. Browns, soft mauves, taupes, and graiges for eyes, roses, peaches and corals for cheeks work for just about everybody (depending on their skin tone, of course!). Bright colours seldom work except for lips. Brunettes can often get away with purple/dark grey eyeshadows and liners, but for many other colourings they'll just look like they have bruises if they lean too far to purple.

- lip colours: if memory serves, dark red lipstick in BW photographs nearly-black, as does magenta. Browns look more like red, and pinks will look like nothing at all. Easily adjusted in PS these days, of course, but if you're looking to cut some processing time out of the procedure....

- eyeliner: the current "closed eye" liner look that's in fashion is not flattering in photos for most people - it tends to make the eyes look small and hard. Liner in general is most flattering if it only extends inwards approximately to the center of the iris, and does NOT close at the outer corner of the eye (extend beyond the natural eye above, and only just to the corner below). Browns, blacks, greys work better than blues/greens/purples (that neutral colour thing again).

- noses can be narrowed (darker colour used as contour down the sides), and double chins can be minimised (darker colour brushed under the chin to make the neck recede and the jawline stand out more). Easy, and v. useful sometimes!

Obviously, for weddings and the like you don't get to call the makeup shots (!), but perhaps some of these bits and pieces will be useful at some point. Hope it helps!

All these are great suggestions!!! I think for my next wedding, I'm going to get the number of the makeup artist and call her the day before. I just can't believe how many MUAs in the salons put shiny, nude lips on my brides. WTH!

D

mmmatt · November 11, 2008

divamum wrote:

Some bits and pieces on the makeup stuff - hope it's ok to jump in and post these! Gleaned from working with stage and photo makeup artists over the years (and years of being a girl! lol) Feel free to use or ignore as is helpful (or not, as the case might be

- IMO people need to know that ALL photos need some kind of makeup if only to keep down shine (as you say). Even if it's only lightweight powder and lips to even out complexion and bump up colour, that will really help.

- The Bare Minerals (or similar) products might not be a bad idea to keep with you as they work with a wide range of skin tones BUT even though they're one of the more hypoallegenic products, some people are allergic to the mica in them (like me.I can't wear the stuff AT ALL without a barrier layer underneath it). That old-fashioned loose powder you can get is good for shine management too (I forget the name now - comes in an old-fashioned cardboard powder box and is super cheap at drugstores/Walmart etc). You can buy disposable puffs/sponges in bulk at a beauty supply store and ease the "not my own makeup" thing - a lot of ladies are twitchy about using anything they don't own - understandable, particularly if they have sensitive or problem skin. HOWEVER... seems entirely reasonable to include sugggestions in your contract/packet and point out that without makeup there's only just so much you can do in photoshop....

- basic principles: light colours make something prominent (ie highlights on brows, cheeks and nose), dark recedes (cheek contours, jawlines, eye-sockets ie eyeshadow). This isn't such a big deal for colour shots, but can be in B&W. Biggest glitch in B&W makeup IME is using a colour with some shine/irrridescence/pearlescent quality - no matter how dark the colour is in reality, once it's converted to B&W it will act as a REFLECTANT and thus a highlight rather than a shadow (this would be the biggest problem in eyeshadows). Until I worked with a TV makeup artist, I can't tell you how many times I made this mistake when doing my own makeup for photos and couldn't understand why no matter HOW heaviliy I applied my (pearlescent) dark brown, it never looked like I had on anything at all!

- colours: trendy colours will ultimately ALWAYS date a photograph (remember the 70s blue eyeshadow look? Instantly identifiable). Neutrals will always be more classic and, imo, look better anyway. Browns, soft mauves, taupes, and graiges for eyes, roses, peaches and corals for cheeks work for just about everybody (depending on their skin tone, of course!). Bright colours seldom work except for lips. Brunettes can often get away with purple/dark grey eyeshadows and liners, but for many other colourings they'll just look like they have bruises if they lean too far to purple.

- lip colours: if memory serves, dark red lipstick in BW photographs nearly-black, as does magenta. Browns look more like red, and pinks will look like nothing at all. Easily adjusted in PS these days, of course, but if you're looking to cut some processing time out of the procedure....

- eyeliner: the current "closed eye" liner look that's in fashion is not flattering in photos for most people - it tends to make the eyes look small and hard. Liner in general is most flattering if it only extends inwards approximately to the center of the iris, and does NOT close at the outer corner of the eye (extend beyond the natural eye above, and only just to the corner below). Browns, blacks, greys work better than blues/greens/purples (that neutral colour thing again).

- noses can be narrowed (darker colour used as contour down the sides), and double chins can be minimised (darker colour brushed under the chin to make the neck recede and the jawline stand out more). Easy, and v. useful sometimes!

Obviously, for weddings and the like you don't get to call the makeup shots (!), but perhaps some of these bits and pieces will be useful at some point. Hope it helps!

on my way out the door but will read this multiple times when I return.

Thanks so much for the info... really missing that girl thing when it comes to makeup.

Thanks thanks thanks!!!

Matt

sherijohnson · November 11, 2008

I think there is nothing wrong with giving the bride a wedding photography makeup guideline list of what may make her and her bridesmaids look their best in the photos.

divamum · November 11, 2008

Also, trawled for some links (I can't find some of the ones I've used in the past - if I do come across them, I'll post them here). However, these are perhaps useful - in particular, they all stress both how colours appear very different in B&W than real life and also the necessity for POWDER to combat shine, and may at least act as backup to your own advice to your clients!

http://www.wolfkettler.co.uk/models/makeup/makeupbysharon.html
http://www.wolfkettler.co.uk/models/makeup/makeupbygina.html
http://www.wolfkettler.co.uk/models/makeup/makeuptips.html (main page which leads to the above)
http://www.dphotojournal.com/makeup-for-photography/
http://www.sideroad.com/Beauty/make-up-for-photography.html
http://www.jurgita.com/articles-id146.html
http://www.bobpardue.com/glamour-makeup/

mmmatt · November 13, 2008

sherijohnson wrote:

I think there is nothing wrong with giving the bride a wedding photography makeup guideline list of what may make her and her bridesmaids look their best in the photos.

I think it is all about tact, but there would be no reason for a bride to not want to look her best.

This makeup thing is crazy... after reading all that I think maybe photoshop IS easier!!! I'm going to cleanse my pallet a bit and research a few obscure lenses I can't afford before I hit some of those links... man this is torturous!

Kidding of course (well... sort of) I really appreciate you ladies coming to this poor boys rescue! I may just have to make a packet of all this and just say "OK... here is a bunch of stuff about makeup that I really don't understand, but do this and your pictures will look better!" Then I will just talk to the groom about his newest favorite beer and tell them who to make the check out to.

Suddenly the moody blues popped into my head!

Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is gray and yellow, white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion...

(cue the strings)

hmmm... tilt-shifts

Matt
</pre>

crockett · November 13, 2008

Just moving through the thread rather quickly:

Maybe it's just me, but the that foot in #8 is freaking me out. I looks like a real amputated foot lying on the dance floor. I bet if you just cloned it out, it would look better. However, I'm on a horrible monitor so perhaps it would look wierd. On my monitor I could hardly tell that was a black dress back behind the children.

divamum · November 14, 2008

Ha - you sound like my husband! Yeah, it's that girlie thing going on.

Seriously, I think simply compiling and handing off a packet including basic info would be a GREAT idea and more than sufficient - it alerts the ladies to giving a little more attention to some important and fairly simple details and that's plenty. After that it's up to them - once you've given them the info, you can let THEM worry about it and just take pretty pictures

All kidding aside, if makeup isn't your thing (and why should it be, really?) the only things you really need to know about it as a photographer are these:

1. Shine sucks. Use powder. Girls AND boys (if necessary)
2. Dark recedes, light makes prominent. Same as photographic highlight/shadow theory, just applied slightly differently.
3. If client wants lots of black and white shots, tell client (or mua) to beware too much shimmery stuff and/or pale lips, make sure you "proof" (via whatever means) early on in the shoot (or beforehand) just like a lighting check to see that mu etc is reading as it needs to, and if possible and necessary adjust lip colour after checking a couple for contrast.

Realistically, I think that's all it's reasonable to expect from a photographer - anything above and beyond that is a bonus

(And I still love your shots!!! I showed your session with Jill to so many friends of mine with less-than-perfect figures just cause I think it was such a great job!!)

mmmatt wrote:

I think it is all about tact, but there would be no reason for a bride to not want to look her best.

This makeup thing is crazy... after reading all that I think maybe photoshop IS easier!!! I'm going to cleanse my pallet a bit and research a few obscure lenses I can't afford before I hit some of those links... man this is torturous!

Kidding of course (well... sort of) I really appreciate you ladies coming to this poor boys rescue! I may just have to make a packet of all this and just say "OK... here is a bunch of stuff about makeup that I really don't understand, but do this and your pictures will look better!" Then I will just talk to the groom about his newest favorite beer and tell them who to make the check out to.

Suddenly the moody blues popped into my head!

Cold hearted orb that rules the night
Removes the colours from our sight
Red is gray and yellow, white
But we decide which is right
And which is an illusion...

(cue the strings)

hmmm... tilt-shifts

Matt

mmmatt · November 14, 2008

Thanks again for the tips and kudos. Jills page had over 10,000 hits on it in a couple weeks so I think a lot of people saw it. Sorta freaked me out so I ended up passwording it just to protect her privacy.

Matt

iodphotography · November 14, 2008

Hey Matt,

What location was that? I'm a Wisconsin shooter, too, and that first building is kind of neat looking.

Thanks!

mmmatt wrote:

Thanks again for the tips and kudos. Jills page had over 10,000 hits on it in a couple weeks so I think a lot of people saw it. Sorta freaked me out so I ended up passwording it just to protect her privacy.

Matt

mmmatt · November 14, 2008

iodphotography wrote:

Hey Matt,

What location was that? I'm a Wisconsin shooter, too, and that first building is kind of neat looking.

Thanks!

The building in the pictures in this thread is the Southport Beach House in Kenosha. It was one of the original beach houses built in Kenosha. Inside it has been recently rehabed and has Art Deco plaster details and whatnot. Colors are earth-toney and assumibly not original but very nice regardlsess.
The lower level was originally consessions and restrooms/showers but is now unused. The lower level on the rear/beach side of the building is where that shot was taken. It is a beautiful location for a small reception and I would love to shoot there again. Beer and wine only, 150ish capacity, and doors close at 10pm so it is not for everyone, but it is a beautiful location.

Here are a couple shots from inside

Matt

Brother-in-law 3 times removed

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