Grainy pictures

lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
edited April 25, 2004 in Technique
Here's a 101 question.. Why are my D Rebel out side portraits suddenly looking "grainy" ...now I know I knew this some where but I want to hear it from the Pros please.
Lynn:D

Comments

  • cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2004
    lynnma wrote:
    ... how I know I knew this some where...
    headscratch.gif
    Lynn dear, either I'm not awake yet or you need to lay off the sauce (at least until 10:00 AM) :D

    Did you mange to set the ISO too high???
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited April 23, 2004
    lynnma wrote:
    Here's a 101 question.. Why are my D Rebel out side portraits suddenly looking "grainy" ... how I know I knew this some where but I want to hear it from the Pros please.
    Lynn:D
    Are you shooting in Aperature preferred where you get to choose the ISO and in RAW or did you shoot in "Portrait" where the ISO and jpg are automatically chosen by the camera? What was the ISO -- check your exif data and let us know please.....
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2004
    pathfinder wrote:
    Are you shooting in Aperature preferred where you get to choose the ISO and in RAW or did you shoot in "Portrait" where the ISO and jpg are automatically chosen by the camera? What was the ISO -- check your exif data and let us know please.....
    Yes I was..
    Shooting Mode
    Aperture-Priority AE
    Tv( Shutter Speed )
    1/250
    Av( Aperture Value )
    10
    Metering Mode

    ISO was 200 auto white balance. Taken in shady side of garden (not too shady) with some extra light (about 400 watts) of light on her side. I always shoot raw. I checked the light with my camera as a light meter first with and with out the lights on and my histogram looked good. It's not terribly grainy but it's not sharp sharp...specially her facial skin..
    Lynn
  • cletuscletus Registered Users Posts: 1,930 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2004
    lynnma wrote:
    Yes I was..
    Shooting Mode
    Aperture-Priority AE
    Tv( Shutter Speed )
    1/250
    Av( Aperture Value )
    10
    Metering Mode

    ISO was 200 auto white balance. Taken in shady side of garden (not too shady) with some extra light (about 400 watts) of light on her side. I always shoot raw. I checked the light with my camera as a light meter first with and with out the lights on and my histogram looked good. It's not terribly grainy but it's not sharp sharp...specially her facial skin..
    Lynn
    headscratch.gif

    I'll have to defer to PF on this one. From the EXIF information, I can't see any reason why the pictures would look grainy.
  • lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2004
    cletus wrote:
    headscratch.gif

    I'll have to defer to PF on this one. From the EXIF information, I can't see any reason why the pictures would look grainy.
    Hmmm thats what I was thinking.. but I always assume it's me.. maybe there just was'nt enough good light....
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited April 23, 2004
    lynnma wrote:
    Hmmm thats what I was thinking.. but I always assume it's me.. maybe there just was'nt enough good light....
    If the ISO was 200 - grain should not be a problem - I have ISO200 images that are excellent - My snow geese images were at ISO200.

    How far did you have to increase exposure in the RAW converter? I would wonder if the images were underexposed if they are grainy when shot at ISO200. Possible? or am I all wet?lickout.gif
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • DoctorItDoctorIt Administrators Posts: 11,951 moderator
    edited April 23, 2004
    Yes Lynn, I also have great images from ISO200 on the drebel. Even when i really need to push it on rainy days (at a few sporting events I've shot) at ISO400, they look quite acceptable.

    ne_nau.gif
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]


  • DoctorItDoctorIt Administrators Posts: 11,951 moderator
    edited April 23, 2004
    pathfinder wrote:
    How far did yoiu have to increase exposure in the RAW converter? I would wonder if the images were underexposed if they are grainy when shot at ISO200. Possible? or am I all wet?lickout.gif
    Should have read this before my first reply - I should have asked this too. Again, I shoot mostly action, so when light is low, I push the ISO up, and I also dial in maybe -1/3 or -2/3 exposure compensation in the Av mode. The thinking is that I can bump it back up in the RAW converter. But, as PF points out, sometimes the bumping back up on the computer puts grain into the shots, especially in dark areas. Wish I had some examples... lemme check...
    Erik
    moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]


  • fishfish Registered Users Posts: 2,950 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2004
    Post a sample, lynnma...and let's take a look.
    "Consulting the rules of composition before taking a photograph, is like consulting the laws of gravity before going for a walk." - Edward Weston
    "The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
  • pathfinderpathfinder Super Moderators Posts: 14,694 moderator
    edited April 23, 2004
    pathfinder wrote:
    If the ISO was 200 - grain should not be a problem - I have ISO200 images that are excellent - My snow geese images were at ISO200.

    How far did yoiu have to increase exposure in the RAW converter? I would wonder if the images were underexposed if they are grainy when shot at ISO200. Possible? or am I all wet?lickout.gif
    I find that if I am under exposed and in the RAW convertor have to increase the exposure 2-3 stops that grain becomes definitely more noticeable. If I then move the dark point ( the slider beneath exposure - brightness) to the right, it seems that grain then decreases also. Might see if this helps.

    The dogwoods I posted last night were like this - they were underexposed due to too short an exposure > than 30 sec was required - SO, I did notice grain when I bumped them up in the RAW converter - but the grain diminished when I moved the slider for darkpoint to the right also. Might see if this has any effect on your images. Like Fish said - show us the money.......
    Pathfinder - www.pathfinder.smugmug.com

    Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
  • lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2004
    pathfinder wrote:
    I find that if I am under exposed and in the RAW convertor have to increase the exposure 2-3 stops that grain becomes definitely more noticeable. If I then move the dark point ( the slider beneath exposure - brightness) to the right, it seems that grain then decreases also. Might see if this helps.

    The dogwoods I posted last night were like this - they were underexposed due to too short an exposure > than 30 sec was required - SO, I did notice grain when I bumped them up in the RAW converter - but the grain diminished when I moved the slider for darkpoint to the right also. Might see if this has any effect on your images. Like Fish said - show us the money.......
    I think you've hit it on the head. I had to bump the exposure up considerably in the software and I think my shutter speed is way too low. No saturation. Please remember my dear model here is before any ps processing.
    Lynn
  • lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
    edited April 23, 2004
    lynnma wrote:
    I think you've hit it on the head. I had to bump the exposure up considerably in the software and I think my shutter speed is way too low. No saturation. Please remember my dear model here is before any ps processing.
    Lynn
    AND.. I just came from a visit to the printers and they mention back grounds??? like the flag for Joyce? was an optimized jpg I dragged off the net somewhere... suggested I use a high quality back ground.. jeez.. where do I get them??? I guess I'll have to shoot my own.. but I never even thought of that. They are doing a "match print" for me on Joyce for me to see the colors etc.. HOW EXCITING!! A real printer....

    Lynn:D
  • wxwaxwxwax Registered Users Posts: 15,471 Major grins
    edited April 24, 2004
    Good news on the printer.

    One question about your exposure being too dark. Are you checking histograms when you shoot? Doing some test shots to set the histogram to where you want it, before you really get going with your model?
    Sid.
    Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
    http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
  • SamSam Registered Users Posts: 7,419 Major grins
    edited April 24, 2004
    lynnma wrote:
    AND.. I just came from a visit to the printers and they mention back grounds??? like the flag for Joyce? was an optimized jpg I dragged off the net somewhere... suggested I use a high quality back ground.. jeez.. where do I get them??? I guess I'll have to shoot my own.. but I never even thought of that. They are doing a "match print" for me on Joyce for me to see the colors etc.. HOW EXCITING!! A real printer....

    Lynn:D
    Lynn,

    I think you can buy almost anything at the website I have put ,dropped at theend of this post. I believe you can download a full sized file, but if your on dial up you may want to schedule some chores, you know cut the grass, go grocery shopping, during the download time. iStockphoto
  • Shay StephensShay Stephens Registered Users Posts: 3,165 Major grins
    edited April 25, 2004
    lynnma wrote:
    I think you've hit it on the head. I had to bump the exposure up considerably in the software and I think my shutter speed is way too low.
    Your EXIF data shows you were shooting about two stops too dark (if I had to guess). Open shade is about EV12, and you were shooting closer to EV14 which would be weak, hazy sun.

    As others have mentioned, pushing the exposure in post will yield more grain (noise) than there would be otherwise, and a related note, when you push beyond a stop or two, the dynamic range begins to suffer too.
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
  • lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
    edited April 25, 2004
    wxwax wrote:
    Good news on the printer.

    One question about your exposure being too dark. Are you checking histograms when you shoot? Doing some test shots to set the histogram to where you want it, before you really get going with your model?
    I do use the histogram every time nearly.. and I noticed that sometimes it says it's over exposed when it's not really.. I'm thinking that the histogram is thinking like the camera.. trying to "make it all neutral". Whaddya think.. I've invested in a model from Walmart and I also made myself a diffuser with a hoola hoop and some fine white fabric..so I have to get serious now.
  • lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
    edited April 25, 2004
    Your EXIF data shows you were shooting about two stops too dark (if I had to guess). Open shade is about EV12, and you were shooting closer to EV14 which would be weak, hazy sun.

    As others have mentioned, pushing the exposure in post will yield more grain (noise) than there would be otherwise, and a related note, when you push beyond a stop or two, the dynamic range begins to suffer too.
    Thanks Shay,

    yes I think I'm doing this consistently.. this is the hard part for me, getting these exposures correct. Sometimes between the jigs the reels, the sun, the reflectors, the diffusers and models... the dog? and THE WIND.. it's like, welcome to the world of photography:D
    This was yesterday's cropped model shot. I'm still struggling to get the light right...I NEED EQUIPMENT!! Please tell me what to buy? I'm using homemade lights (when needed, none here) and they cast yellow, what should I buy for lights... (second hand hopefully) I think I'm ready for some.
    And thnks Sam for your link.
  • Shay StephensShay Stephens Registered Users Posts: 3,165 Major grins
    edited April 25, 2004
    They say that light is light, and for the most part this is true. However, you can make things easier on yourself if those lights balance color wise. In your outdoor shot example, you are using the sun as the main light. If you use incandescent lights as additional light, you may encounter color casts because the color temperature is not the same. A flash unit is balanced more for sunlight, so flash would be the more natural choice if you were looking to have balanced color.

    It looks to me that you have two competing light directions, the main light (the sun) looks to be coming from the right, and you have some fill light coming from the left. The fill looks a little strong however, and now the light has a discontinuity with the sun. Try having the fill from the same direction as the sun (from the right) or closer to the camera position if your goal is to lighten the shadows.

    Another thing that helps when shooting outdoors is to shoot in overcast/cloudy weather or avoiding the hours between 10am and 2pm.

    But now we come to the point of trying to determine what it is you are looking to achieve. In the picture you posted, what look were you going for? What do you not like about the photo as it is now?
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
  • lynnmalynnma Registered Users, Retired Mod Posts: 5,207 Major grins
    edited April 25, 2004
    They say that light is light, and for the most part this is true. However, you can make things easier on yourself if those lights balance color wise. In your outdoor shot example, you are using the sun as the main light. If you use incandescent lights as additional light, you may encounter color casts because the color temperature is not the same. A flash unit is balanced more for sunlight, so flash would be the more natural choice if you were looking to have balanced color.

    It looks to me that you have two competing light directions, the main light (the sun) looks to be coming from the right, and you have some fill light coming from the left. The fill looks a little strong however, and now the light has a discontinuity with the sun. Try having the fill from the same direction as the sun (from the right) or closer to the camera position if your goal is to lighten the shadows.

    Another thing that helps when shooting outdoors is to shoot in overcast/cloudy weather or avoiding the hours between 10am and 2pm.

    But now we come to the point of trying to determine what it is you are looking to achieve. In the picture you posted, what look were you going for? What do you not like about the photo as it is now?
    You are absolutely right Shay.. The sun was bright so we were in a more shadowy part.. the light from the left was from a reflector, I can't remember if it was white, or if it was metalic, I think it may have been white but I'm not sure now. I see exactly what you are saying.... I'm also realizing the conflict with the lights I've been using causing color casts, some yellow some blue. The shdows thrown in the uncroped part of the pic is blueish and there is a slight blue haze to her left shoulder I see. I've put a new background in which is very fussy but for the "calendar" I feel it'll be ok, they'll like it I think. The look I was going for is a bright, complimentary, fun slightly glamour look with strong color. I'm having trouble with all those components. What do you think of the second one, as I said in another thread I'm reluctant to over do PS since the printer commented go easy as it may all show in the match print.
    Thank you so much for taking the time to help me... I'm absorbing like a sponge here...:D
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