Love this email!!!

gman33 · November 13, 2008

Hi All

I shoot local sports and have done very well since I started last year. I have had hundreds of orders without any complaints and made more money than I ever thought I would. Trust me...surprised myself. My pictures are far from fantastic compared to what I have seen by others on this board...so maybe I have been lucky.

I was asked to cover this league this past season and we had our last game this past Saturday. I had the pictures processed and ready on Sunday...300+

Received an order Sunday night for $20+ and I send out my thank you email as I do for each order. This was the response

"I appreciate your time in taking these pictures in although I did order some I am anxcious to see how they are. I do think $4.00 for a 4 x6 photo is crazy and although I realize they are professional and your time is spent I will see if the quality is that much different than if I would have taken them myself I would hope not for 25.00. Thanks again"

So I wanted to share and I was quite professional in my response...but just had several questions run through my head after I read it that I can't repeat here....what do you think??? How would you have responded???

Thanks
Ed

Code Blue · November 13, 2008

gman33 wrote:

Hi All

I shoot local sports and have done very well since I started last year. I have had hundreds of orders without any complaints and made more money than I ever thought I would. Trust me...surprised myself. My pictures are far from fantastic compared to what I have seen by others on this board...so maybe I have been lucky.

I was asked to cover this league this past season and we had our last game this past Saturday. I had the pictures processed and ready on Sunday...300+

Received an order Sunday night for $20+ and I send out my thank you email as I do for each order. This was the response

"I appreciate your time in taking these pictures in although I did order some I am anxious to see how they are. I do think $4.00 for a 4 x6 photo is crazy and although I realize they are professional and your time is spent I will see if the quality is that much different than if I would have taken them myself I would hope not for 25.00. Thanks again"

So I wanted to share and I was quite professional in my response...but just had several questions run through my head after I read it that I can't repeat here....what do you think??? How would you have responded???

Thanks
Ed

so what was your response to that email?

I would have said something along the lines of

"while I appreciate your concern, I do ask you to take into consideration that while many people consider picture taking at these events a simple means of capturing memories, I am offering a service by which there is no guesswork as to whether or not the image is going to come out correctly, if it's going to be in perfect focus, or if it accidentally gets deleted. You can be assured that every image you purchase is in the utmost best quality, as I mean for my pictures to speak for themselves in terms of keeping my customers happy. And since I do run a business doing this, I have to take into aspect the overheads costs of such an undertaking"

granted, its a little long winded, but it definitely takes the guesswork out of it.

sweet caroline · November 14, 2008

Code Blue wrote:

so what was your response to that email?

Personally, I wouldn't have responded. There's no reason to defend your pricing. They didn't ask a question, they just whined about having to pay more than they wanted. But they chose to pay that. So they'll judge whether it's worth it to them in the future to order any more. Some people don't see the difference between an okay photo and a good photo, and some people do. The people who do will recognize your talent and be willing to pay for that. Those are your clients.

Caroline

Snowgirl · November 14, 2008

I had a customer say almost the same thing to me. I did their family portraits and she had no problem paying my prices for the 8 x 10 and 16 x 20 but really choked on the 4 x 6 and wallets (didn't order any wallets). Her comment was similar to your customer's - "I bought a good quality ($1000) camera so i could take good pictures of my kids without having to go to a pro."

I essentially ignored the remarks because - she DID come to a pro. After all, she can't get a picture of herself WITH her kids on her own camera, can she? Unless Dad takes the pic - in which case HE is not in the picture.

I'm currently reading the recommended "Pricing Photography" book and couldn't agree more with their comments. we are IN BUSINESS to make a profit - and profit is NOT a dirty word. No profit - no reinvestment in equipment, training and facilities. None of that? No business.

I will NOT be one of those photographers (and writers, in my case) who will be SO THRILLED to get their credit that they sell stuff for next to nothing. That will destroy our industry faster than anything. So - I too have invested in 'good' equipment (somewhat better than my client's), taken courses, participate in on-going professional development, joined photo associations (and writing associations) to improve my professional demeanor and status - and I expect to be treated with the respect due to any professional in any capacity.

There will always be 'cheap' customers - fire them. there are others who will appreciate your work and be willing to pay a reasonable price for it.

Cygnus Studios · November 14, 2008

Business is 100% about profit. You should never make excuses. Despite the trends that tell us capitalism is evil, business makes the world go round. Some people will complain no matter what.
Rule number 1 in business. Your prices will be determined by the customers who purchase them. If your prices are too high, you will not have customers. If they are too low, you will not have customers.
You are not selling the paper which the image is printed on. You are selling the image. The customer can go out and purchase any camera that they want. The best camera in the world will not take the right picture for you.

Keep in mind, that your photographs are simply the end result. The value comes from your preparation, your knowledge, your skill, and your business sense. You are the only one that can determine what that is worth.

gman33 · November 14, 2008

Thank you everyone for the responses. I did respond back to her in a professional manner and told her about the guarantee...still no response, and I don't expect one.

This is a tight knit community and I think this route was the best...I even made her daughter a computer wallpaper as a thank you for her order. I know I may be crazy but word spreads fast and some people are too stupid to listen to what others have to say without knowing the facts for themselves by ordering prints and seeing the quality.

One client I just had was so happy that I took "the perfect picture" of her son playing soccer that she sent me a $100 gift card to B&H...what a surprise that was. She never saw something like this before....she said

So this one time client will move on and there will be others...can't wait for the complaint email to come...because I know it will

Thanks

Ed

geospatial_junkie · November 14, 2008

Just to play devil's advocate here...

Maybe the customer has a point. Now keep in mind I am not judging your work (nor have I seen it!), but I've also seem some pretty outrageous prices from people who have taken night classes in photography (often times introductory classes) or bought a digital camera and consider themselves pros (right here in smugmug!). Just go to their websites and click on buy photos to see their prices.

If your photos warrant it, then you should absolutely be confident in your ability. Since, this is the only person that has complained, I would assume people are satisfied with the job you do and don't mind paying your prices. In other words, I would say this in a nice way to the client and politely explain that they don't need to buy your photos if they feel it isn't worth it. This won't hurt your business at all.

As far as not answering an email. If you take any courses on dealing with clients, then you would now that in this situation, it is the wrong thing to do. Some photographers do this, but you better have the game to back it up! Always explain to the customer politely why something is as is and then try to resolve the matter. You'll gain a reputation as being reasonable to deal with that way.

Cygnus Studios · November 14, 2008

geospatial_junkie wrote:

Maybe the customer has a point. Now keep in mind I am not judging your work (nor have I seen it!), but I've also seem some pretty outrageous prices from people who have taken night classes in photography (often times introductory classes) or bought a digital camera and consider themselves pros (right here in smugmug!). Just go to their websites and click on buy photos to see their prices.

I don't wish to hijack this thread, nor disagree completely with your statement, but it isn't always the pictures that make a person a professional.
An artist yes, but not a professional.
Same goes with the gear used.
Personally I am a far better businessman than photographer. More than likely my images will not hang with honor at a museum, yet I am paid before I ever press the shutter.
100% of my income is currently from photography. Some may not view my images as all that great or professional or whatever, yet they just bought me a new porsche.
I focus on delivering consistant results that meet the needs of the client. I leave art for those who have a passion for it.

geospatial_junkie · November 14, 2008

Cygnus Studios wrote:

I don't wish to hijack this thread, nor disagree completely with your statement, but it isn't always the pictures that make a person a professional.
An artist yes, but not a professional.

No worries about hijacking.

If your photos don't make you a professional photographer, then what does... the fact that you are a nice guy, or have good business sense?

No offence, but that doesn't make any sense. If people wish to pay you for your time regardless of skill (again, not looking at your portfolio) then that's their perogative. Under your model, a bride would hire a photographer based on what then? Business sense? That's why we have "portfolio's". We show of our work so people will hire us.

If people don't hire you, then you make no money and this means no "pro" status. Unless you sell $200 worth of images a year on smugmug, then obviously your a pro.

I agree though that photo quality and composition is only part of the equation that makes someone a professional and business sense and people skills enter into the equation at some point, but sorry, consistently showing a mastery of exposure and lighting is what ulimately decides how far you'll go in photography if you choose to attempt to make money at it.

My cousin could go photograph and motocross race and make a hundred bucks via sheer volume of photos sold. Maybe no-one else took photos and are willing to pay his fee or maybe they don't know any better. This does NOT make him a professional as he really has no clue regarding light, ISO and the relationship between shutterspeed and aperture. Being judged a pro by your peers is just as important too.

mercphoto · November 14, 2008

gman33 wrote:

"I appreciate your time in taking these pictures in although I did order some I am anxcious to see how they are. I do think $4.00 for a 4 x6 photo is crazy and although I realize they are professional and your time is spent I will see if the quality is that much different than if I would have taken them myself I would hope not for 25.00. Thanks again"

First thought, the customer is whining. Second thought, there is a valid point that if the photo is not better than what they could have got themself then there truly is little value to your photo. But even that doesn't justify a whiny email because its more of a "duh, I'm not going to pay for something I could get myself". No mystery there, nothing worth whining about either, its just stating the obvious. Third thought, is there a reason why they didn't just take the photos themself? Or did you provide a valuable service for them, getting the photograph so that they could do something else, like watch and enjoy?

I'll be the first to admit that four years ago I had no idea just how expensive and time consuming it would be to capture high quality images and get them ready for sale. Its the syndrome that if you don't really understand something then it just seems to be easy to you. There was actually a Dilbert cartoon about this phenomenon. People just think taking photos and posting them to the web is a walk in the park, probably because they never put much effort into their own snaps. Therefore they don't understand the mark-up.

Photography is not a business where the goods are price by cost, they are priced by value. And I think that is the primary stumbling block to most people.

By the way, $4.00 to me for a 4x6 print, if well taken, is actually too little.

geospatial_junkie · November 14, 2008

mercphoto wrote:

By the way, $4.00 to me for a 4x6 print, if well taken, is actually too little.

Agreed.

johng · November 14, 2008

geospatial_junkie wrote:

but sorry, consistently showing a mastery of exposure and lighting is what ulimately decides how far you'll go in photography if you choose to attempt to make money at it.

I'm going to completely disagree with this statement IF your running your own business. If you're working for another business, what I'm about to say doesnt apply so much.

Which product survived the initial fight - Beta or VHS? Few people would argue VHS was a better product. How about Microsoft Windows? Think that's the best operating system out there? No. The better product doesn't always win. Marketing plays a HUGE part.

Business and people skills will play a far, far, far more impactful part in determining success. An average photographer with the right marketing and skill set will succeed. A highly skilled photographer with no people skills and no business skills will ultimately fail. Now, within the field, the cream will certainly rise to the top. But when it comes to running your own business the world is full of excellent chefs who ran restaurants into the ground, full of photographers who were very good but couldn't make a living because they couldn't manage finances, didn't know how to properly market and didn't know how to come up with products that sell.

I'll give you a perfect example: mall-based photo stores. The revenue they bring in is much better than most studios. Quality is less so why do they make more money? Simple - they keep personnel costs down and they provide a very accessable product at a very reasonable price. And their located in a spot where they get a LOT of foot traffic. If you gave the people there a camera and asked them to shoot portraits on their own they wouldn't have a clue. But in that setup all they have to do is change backgrounds and work with some props.

Like any other business, the business model itself is the most important thing. The product quality only needs to be "good enough" for the target demographic of your business model. Beyond that and your target demographic simply isn't willing to pay higher prices for better quality. And if you want a demographic that DOES want to pay you need a different marketing strategy to get access to that demographic.

And, of course, there's the ultimate business example - Walmart. Do they sell the best products? Not really. Do they make more money than most countries? Yep! Why? Because they have a very effective business model

In the end, being a great photographer is not the same as being a monetarily successful photographer.

sweet caroline · November 14, 2008

As far as not answering an email. If you take any courses on dealing with clients, then you would now that in this situation, it is the wrong thing to do. Some photographers do this, but you better have the game to back it up! Always explain to the customer politely why something is as is and then try to resolve the matter. You'll gain a reputation as being reasonable to deal with that way.[/QUOTE]

Alright, maybe I was cranky because I was home sick when I suggested not answering the e-mail at all. Sorry. Bad Advice. In all honestly, I probably would have sent a quick polite note back. I'm extremely diplomatic in real life.

I do stand by my feeling that your price is fair if your photos are pro quality. Whether they are pro quality in this case is for your clients to judge, and then they can decide if it's worth it to them to pay your prices.

Caroline

xris · November 14, 2008

How about something like:

"Thank you for your kind note. We too think $4.00 is a crazy price, but by keeping prices down the photographs remain accessible to everyone."

Snowgirl · November 14, 2008

xris wrote:

How about something like:

"Thank you for your kind note. We too think $4.00 is a crazy price, but by keeping prices down the photographs remain accessible to everyone."

Fanfarquingtastic response! Brilliant in fact.

Leaping into the "pro" debate... (I am a glutton for punishment)... There are many aspects to this discussion. First of all, the minute someone gets paid for a service - they are technically a pro. Period.

Many people right here on SmugMug are brilliant photographers with an obvious grasp of the technical aspects (lighting, ISO, etc. etc. etc.) combined with artistic vision. More power to them. I admire others' work and frequently wish I could emulate their results. In my case, i do the best I can with the training I've taken and the equipment I can afford.

That said, I may be a 'middle of the road' photographer artistically - of course I always strive to improve - but I can sell my photos. People want them because they are pictures of friends and family members (or pets, horses or prize winning cattle) performing in an event. Even some of my family portraits are beginning to sell.

Now- I'm a nervous type but I just quit my day job to focus (bad pun really intended) on developing my photography business and expanding my freelance writing client base. For that I need a solid business plan - my current 'in-the-works' project.

Am I a pro? Dam* straight I am. This is my business and hopefully will make my mortgage payments.:ivar

angevin1 · November 15, 2008

johng wrote:

I'm going to completely disagree with this statement IF your running your own business. If you're working for another business, what I'm about to say doesnt apply so much.

Which product survived the initial fight - Beta or VHS? Few people would argue VHS was a better product. How about Microsoft Windows? Think that's the best operating system out there? No. The better product doesn't always win. Marketing plays a HUGE part.

Business and people skills will play a far, far, far more impactful part in determining success. An average photographer with the right marketing and skill set will succeed. A highly skilled photographer with no people skills and no business skills will ultimately fail. Now, within the field, the cream will certainly rise to the top. But when it comes to running your own business the world is full of excellent chefs who ran restaurants into the ground, full of photographers who were very good but couldn't make a living because they couldn't manage finances, didn't know how to properly market and didn't know how to come up with products that sell.

I'll give you a perfect example: mall-based photo stores. The revenue they bring in is much better than most studios. Quality is less so why do they make more money? Simple - they keep personnel costs down and they provide a very accessable product at a very reasonable price. And their located in a spot where they get a LOT of foot traffic. If you gave the people there a camera and asked them to shoot portraits on their own they wouldn't have a clue. But in that setup all they have to do is change backgrounds and work with some props.

Like any other business, the business model itself is the most important thing. The product quality only needs to be "good enough" for the target demographic of your business model. Beyond that and your target demographic simply isn't willing to pay higher prices for better quality. And if you want a demographic that DOES want to pay you need a different marketing strategy to get access to that demographic.

And, of course, there's the ultimate business example - Walmart. Do they sell the best products? Not really. Do they make more money than most countries? Yep! Why? Because they have a very effective business model

In the end, being a great photographer is not the same as being a monetarily successful photographer.

Hear Hear!!

to the OP: I have to ask...out of all of the shooting you do and with all of the satisfied customers you obviously have: why post this persons whiney e-mail? Is this the only exposure you've had to whiney folk? Or did this grate you wrong?

thanks, tom

Tango · November 15, 2008

i may not have attended an evening photography class, but i did stay at a holiday express last night...

Gman33, i would say all future photographs of that specific kid just went up 110%:D

Howard Barlow · November 16, 2008

I would have said, "Thank you for your order."

jeffreaux2 · November 16, 2008

I have specifically avoided shooting sports/ action in my area, but have several friends who do. FWIW the going rate here...for an action shot at a sports event in a 4X6 is going to be either $6 or $7.

gman33 · November 16, 2008

to the OP: I have to ask...out of all of the shooting you do and with all of the satisfied customers you obviously have: why post this persons whiney e-mail? Is this the only exposure you've had to whiney folk? Or did this grate you wrong?

I just thought it was funny. Although she purchased the pictures that she was able to preview before purchasing, she went ahead and made this comment...in fact, went out of her way to respond to my original "Thank you" email. I was going to ask her why she was not out there taking the pictures herself? Why even bother with ordering the pictures if you may have an issue with them. If I said..."Hey I got some great pictures of your kid, but you have to give me money first before you can see them"...then sure...that is an issue.

I appreciate everyone's response to this post...

Ed

geospatial_junkie · November 17, 2008

I will have to agree to disagree with everyone else then.

From a wedding standpoint, I don't know too many brides that want a just average photographer. Usually thats why they ask for an album of images. Just curious, how many people that disagree with me shoot a lot of weddings?

johng · November 17, 2008

geospatial_junkie wrote:

I will have to agree to disagree with everyone else then.

From a wedding standpoint, I don't know too many brides that want a just average photographer. Usually thats why they ask for an album of images. Just curious, how many people that disagree with me shoot a lot of weddings?

Perhaps this is part of this miscommunication. When did this discussion turn from the 'general' to 'weddings'? I don't even think the OP is doing weddings.

But even regarding weddings - it amounts to the same thing. You're going to have a price and a client is going to ask themselves "is this work good enough to justify the price".

While what is "good enough" may change with regard to the genre (e.g. good enough for Team and Individual shots for sports team is different than good enough for senior portrait is different than good enough for yearly baby photo is different than good enough for wedding is different than good enough for Time magazine etc....) you're still not going to put food on the table and keep the business afloat without a good business model.

Assume for the sake of argument a person defines 'success' as $75,000 per year salary (not the business net or gross but the salary they take from the business). Do you honestly think if they're a great photographer that $75,000 worth of SALARY is going to just walk thru their door?

Or take 2 photographers - exact same skill set and style as wedding photographers in the exact same market. Photographer A advertises and charges $3500 for a standard wedding package. Photographer B does not advertise and charges $5000 for that same wedding package.
Who do you think is going to have the more successful business?

geospatial_junkie · November 17, 2008

I'm sorry if I made it about weddings, but I think everyone here speaks somewhat from the experience they have. On general terms I will agree that business sense is incredibly important, but if you don't have a good product, you will ultimately not be successful.

Pricing is incredibly important, but that should ultimately be determined by the quality of the images you produce. Average photographers have average pricing and excellent photographers often times have above average to astronomical prices... and they get it.

How does the saying go? "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time..."

mercphoto · November 17, 2008

geospatial_junkie wrote:

From a wedding standpoint, I don't know too many brides that want a just average photographer. Usually thats why they ask for an album of images. Just curious, how many people that disagree with me shoot a lot of weddings?

I don't do weddings, but you've asked a subjective question above once you said "average" photographer. Everyone's standards are different and everyone's definition of average is going to be different. My sister-in-law, who was married several years ago, hired a very inexpensive photographer and is very happy with their photos. To me they are plain jane ordinary snapshots. My wife agrees. Different standards.

Cygnus Studios · November 17, 2008

Weddings are a little different. For the most part you will be competing with several others not only based on quality of images, but pricing as well.
I have not done weddings yet, and who knows if I actually will or not. Currently 90% of my business is commercial products followed up by some team sports and corporate events.
We have all looked through business catalogs or newspapers and knew we could do as good or better. If you drive by a billboard at 70 mph do most people care if the image is artistic? Do you think that they are judged the same as a wedding portfolio?
There are plenty of ways to make a darn good living in this business, and each will have its own requirements on technique and ability.
I am certianly not the cheapest guy in town, nor the most expensive. When a client asks about my prices, I explain why I charge the amount.
If they want someone that charges less, I thank them and move on. If they want someone who they believe is better, again I thank them and move on.

Love this email!!!

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