Photographers who annoy me

ginger_55 · May 10, 2005

I am still seething over going to photograph the May Day thing at our church. Getting there too late for church, but in plenty of time to photograph. This was Sunday.

And it is the second time this has happened. And not just there. I was taking photographs of kids playing while their parents talked, or whatever.

A woman came up and asked if the parents of the kids knew I was taking the photos. I pointed out some parents sitting right there who obviously knew. She kept after me. I asked if she was a photographer, she said, "as a matter of fact I am, do the parents.....................

Now I didn't want to be there, no one had returned my calls, I was sick, and this woman was being a B, as far as I was concerned. I had the May Day and then 2 baptisms to photograph.

I am trying to make this a bit fast. I did ask a number of minutes, 15, later, if one of the kids was hers, or several...............she said yes and pointed to the first kids I had taken a photo of. She was not a member, was visiting either for the mayday, or a baptism. i did not notice her again, once i started
"working".

The same thing happened at a Sunday morning nature walk, several months ago, not by the leader, but by a young man with big white Canon lenses. His question was "Did you ask these people if you could photograph them?" So I did. I had smiled at them all, pointed at the camera and everything, but this young, sorry but these people really annoy me.

Now all my church photos, they do not include that woman's kids, but they are all going to be marked so that no one can buy them, for a month or so.

But it did not exactly make my day. And it isn't in the message as much as in the attitude, particularly on Sunday. I have a photo of her kids all on a bench, with their backs to me. That is how she wanted them to sit. I will post that, if I ever work it up.

Sorry, just a rant, but do you all do that? Have you ever had it happen to you?

ginger

dragon300zx · May 10, 2005

Thats when you can simply say that if she would like you will delete the photos of her kids but that th eother parents are aware of what is going on and you are there to photograph these events for the church. Adding that as a guest of the church you understand that she wasn't aware the events would be photographed however they are being photographed and as you are working you would kindly request her to allow you to do what you were there for and you would not take any pictures of her kids as long as they were not in the shot with the kids you needed to photograph.

People like this are a pain and best delt with by letting them know in a polite (yet forceful way) that you are there for a reason and they need not participate if they choose not to. At least in metro detroit were we all have attitudes anyways this is the best way to deal with it.

PS this is assuming you were there officially for the church or parents who had asked you to photograph the procedings. Also If I recall correctly I seem to remember you saying something about hearing problems. You could always just pretend you don't hear them or notice they exist. Thats one of my favorite methods when someone is getting on my nerves.

mercphoto · May 10, 2005

Ginger, are you there with the church on some official basis, specifically to photograph the events? If so, just simply say so. "The church as requested I photograph this event for them". That should be enough to quell any "fears" people have.

I agree with you, people are stupid paranoid anymore.

johno · May 10, 2005

I don't know what to say G. As a youth minister I take a lot of pics and video of students which can be touchy issue.

Jack Crabtree's book, "Better Safe Than Sued" Says, "Photographs, slides, and videos can get you into trouble if you aren't careful. All the pictures taken at your events and activities are the property of the youth ministry. However, if you plan to use any of the photographs, slides, videos, or audio tapes in a public setting or in a promotional piece for the youth ministry, you should have a written consent and release form from every person whose picture will be used."

As an "employee" for the church what I do belongs to the church. This is a bit different for you. Most members at my church know me and don't have a problem with what I do. They benefit from my work as youth pastor and media guy. They love to see their kids on film. Non-members don't understand this. Trust me. I believe they think your out to take advantage of them. A bad rap from Big Hair Televangelists. I could get mad at them and think a handful of adjectives to discribe how stupid they are, but I have to realize they don't understand the family body I am a part of.

I guess the deal is getting paid for taking shot at church and taking pictures at non church events. I don't charge for anything I do at church. Baptisms or Easter events, whatever. In part I am paid by these people to pastor. They other side is family. I love these people. They are my brothers and Sisters and I could only charge them what I would charge my children. I am always glad to give those captured blessings away to my church family. In doing so, I have had many wanting to give me something for my time and efforts. They realize that I am putting effort beyond my "ministry" to give them something special.

If someone wanted me to take senior pics or some other none "church" event, I think I would charge them... I think.

If you want to take pictures for your church events, consider "charging" for photos and make it clear that 50% goes to the Missions fund to support your missions families. Or better yet, for every photo sold 75% of sales goes to the youth program. If your church has an auction to raise money for a special need, auction your services. My wife and I bought piano lessons for a month through a church auction last year. We have paid for more months of lessons with the instructor than the one we got to support the church.

I think this could do a few things... #1 get your photos out in the public. #Put some money in your pocket. #3 Support your church ministries. People will feel good if they know the money is supporting a good cause.

Of course, you need to get your Pastor and or Elders on board with this idea first. By doing so you could land some "outside" projects with families and friends.

About the lady... Pray for her. She doesn't know. Because she doesn't know your church family, don't get to upset with her. Nothing you attempt will change her mind. She is only looking to find fault in something. You just happened to be in the way that day. Say sorry and nothing else. If she wanted you to delete the pics of her kid, do so and say sorry. Try focus on the many other families that are thankful you are catching time for them when they were not looking.

peace.
johno~

ginger_55 · May 10, 2005

I was not on official business, yet, I was just waiting, like the others outside. I take lots of photos while waiting. That is just what I do. Alot of deletions, too.

Once I was working, actually doing what I was there to do, other than the fact I should have gone to church, but once I started photographing the Mayday thing, I could have said that I had been asked by the church, etc.........

YOu know, see, what annoys me about these people is that she did not ask to have her kids photos deleted. She did slip in something at the end about taking photos of other peoples kids, then selling them. At that point I had to run. So that was her main gripe, I guess. And we have discussed this ad nauseum about selling, without a release. I have not even entered in KPOTD anyone's kid, as I am afraid to.

Then there was the younger man at the bird walk, he didn't mind having his photo taken and neither did anyone else..................he was just going to emphatically "teach" me a lesson. The rhetorical question of have I asked everyone. Since I haven't asked him, he knows the answer to that. The woman at church knew the answer, too, as I hadn't asked her. But they ask me anyway. That is the "gotcha" question.

Then they proceed to lecture, or whatever it would be called.

The gotcha question is the setup. Parents do it with kids. The kid lies and the kid is really in trouble. I didn't do it, I discovered that I didn't want to have to enforce that much wrong doing, besides, it is a setup.

She didn't bother me, except to annoy me. I couldn't afford to get ultra bothered, I had to take a bunch of photos shortly. I had a zone to get into.

I thought she was a member, I just assumed it. She was extremely well dressed, etc, just like many of our newer members. (I had on jeans, and i have thought about that........well, it is the lens or the clothes, and the clothes are not me)

While I was seething, I was thinking that she had to be new not to know that I am around all the time taking photos. I kept thinking of my 20 yrs, when the church was still "small", compared to a short period of time for her. It turned out that she wasn't a member. She might not have been catholic. That would not have much to do with anything, except her annoyance factor could have been up. When I had a chance to think, I was hoping that she would complain to someone. I was not worried.

I have told Judy, who is the person I report to. I e-mail them the photos, that is the way they want it. Free. Ironically, one of the reasons they set this thing up with me taking photos is they are all, or most, hoping that I make some money off of selling to the parishioners. So they are all for me selling to parisioners, and I imagine that it had not crossed their minds that I would sell to anyone else, no one else would want them, I guess they are thinking.

But this was not just this woman. This is also that young man at the bird walk. Same "gotcha", same lecture in stern tones.........some people.

They are not the real worry, though. The real worry is the release issue, IMO.

And for the record, I have never sold to a parishioner..........yeah, I did once a year ago. Her daughter was in the previous may day. She begged me to sell to her, kept telling me i was a good photographer and should not be afraid to ask for money. That is unusual in this church whose members carry cameras like mine and don't need my photos. But I have had another woman say that, too. Just begged me to sell, charge...........then she wanted me to do something else. I had taken a photo of her small daughter in a park, given a card to someone, she had gotten it............

Well, anyway, it is only the photographers who have hassled me. And right now it is 2 for 2. And none of my church photos are for sale.

ginger, sorry for another long rant. It is just a "gotcha", hate that!:D

Thanks for the responses, and the advice, good advice.

ginger_55 · May 10, 2005

Just an addition, yes, most people in that church do know me, after 20 years.

Another woman benefited because I took a picture of an altar boy lighting candles, and it happened to be his first day. She bought some pictures at my price on smugmug.

But the pt, which is kind of besides the pt, IMO, the church has a regular professional photographer. He was there Sunday. I guess when I called, said I was sick, Judy managed to line up everyone in case, but did not call me to tell me that.

I am, as a photographer, a charity case for them. And it gives Joe, the real photographer, a break. I did not know about him when this thing started. I have a much clearer picture now.

I kept volunteering, they kept saying "no", but would not give me a reason. They finally wrote me a letter that it was because of my hearing that I could not do these things, such as be a Eucharistic Minister, or a reader. They had been afraid to talk about it with me.

It took them awhile, but they thought up the photography, that is my contribution and volunteering to the church.

Plus, they know I struggle with money. They have helped me buy hearing aids. They do know. And not only did this stop my begging to volunteer, it gave me an opportunity to make some money from the parisioners, who, they thought, would all want to buy baby photos.

So, the thing, as far as the church is concerned, there was irony. Now the man at the nature walk.............I think some people just have to teach others a lesson. And, by their profession, they do know the "lesson", I should learn.

On the other hand, I have met some very nice photographers out there, they come up, we talk, joke, etc............I hear what I can, and hope to find new places to shoot.

so, that is the whole story........
There is humor in here somewhere,
ginger

luckyrwe · May 10, 2005

You may have issues with releases, publication, use of photographs, etc. That can all vary. But all you were doing was TAKING the pictures! Holy cow, is visible light copyrighted somehow?

I still get people wondering why I am taking pictures. Had a cop pull a rifle on me about 10 months ago because I looked suspicious with the camera. I have been approached by no less that 20 police officers because of my work. WORK! And off duty when I want to take pictures for fun? Well it seems people think I ought to use an Instamatic. There is something wrong in their eyes of using a 1D2 and 70-200IS lens for fun pics. I must be up to something!

Do you know any foreign languages, even a few words? You can always speak a few word to them in another language (Arabic may not be a good idea) and see if they want to press it enough. What are they going to do, go find a cop? No, they want to be the cop themselves! They think they are doing right! I have a good mind to sue the next jerk who jumps in front of my lens because they think they are doing the greater good by stopping me from taking pictures in a public place.

The latest thing I do is answer a question with a question:
Do the parents know you are shooting their kids?
-What if they do?

What are you going to do with those pictures?
-What does it matter?

Do you have a license to take pictures?
-What if I do?

And my favorite:
Do you know you can't shoot people without permission?
-Do you know you are harrassing me and you can be arrested?

Put the onus on them, see how big they want to make the issue. Odds are they have a place to be and things to do and most won't sit around for the police to show up. If they threaten you with the cops say thank you because they just saved you the phone call of calling the cops on them!

Bystander · May 10, 2005

Landscapes
This discussion makes me think I should stick to landscapes......

:

GREAPER · May 10, 2005

Bystander wrote:

This discussion makes me think I should stick to landscapes...... :

OK,,, so "property releases"? Any thoughts,

johno · May 10, 2005

You're right G... There is humor here because there are people all over it. That is the joy and hurt of it. Has a mountain landscape ever made you mad. Any egerts ever give you the bird for taking their pics. Real hurt and struggle only comes when you involve real people. But, dare I say, nothing else can bring such joyful emotion.

I love the saying, "If you meet one person and they're a butt... Chances are, they are a butt. If you meet a bunch of people and they're all butts... Chances are, you're the butt."

Two bossy people out of how many? I don't think you are the problem.

Never stop taking pictures of people Ginger... I have seen what you do and you do a great job. I will never forget the shot you took for the emotion challenge of the little girl getting yelled at for standing up on the chair... and the golf cart pic of the two girls on back having a blast. Nice stuff.

I would say it is worth the risk to do something you have a passion for.

Everyone dies, not everyone lives.

Peace.
johno~

lr1811 · May 10, 2005

devil's advocate
I'd like to say a few things about taking picture of kids...
I'm not saying I disagree, I just want you to look at it another way.

More then likely the parents that "question" you probably do not know you or your intentions. As long as they are polite and cordial about it, does it really matter what they ask you?

There may be a legitimate concern when they see people photographing children. They may not want their kids photographed, and regardless of what the law says, I can tell you that a lot of parents are very uncomfortable about random people taking photographs of their children. And I do not mean the photographer little X's parents hired for his birthday, etc.

I can think of an incident that occured when I lived in another state. An individual was taking pictures at a ballpark. One of the moms approached him and starting asking some questions. The man was invasive and left rather quickly after. The mom wrote the license plate of his vehicle and called the Police. Come to find out, the man was a registered sex offender who had no business being around kids.

Now before you start hollering that you would never blah blah blah, keep in mind these people do not know you!

Anyway, just a different way to look at it...

Tim Kirkwood · May 10, 2005

Ginger.....

I opened this thread just to make sure my name was not on some sort of a list:lol4

Glad to see its a rant and not a growing list!

Sorry for your bad day.

Tim

ginger_55 · May 10, 2005

Lucky, Greaper, Bystander and all. Lucky wire, you are on a roll, I laughed so hard.

Johno, those are good thoughts.

Tim, that is an idea. The list. No, I could have called it the "gotcha" game, rather than photographers, but since it had come from photographers, well............. anyway, none of you would be on it.

Ir, another way of looking at it is that that person didn't know me because it wasn't her church, she was visiting. Most people don't go visiting and start whatever, until they see the lay of the land. I mean visiting anywhere.

One reason it probably didn't bother me more was because I was "home". But I was surprised, and annoyed. Annoyed is calm for me in a volatile situation.

If I went to your church, school, home, where ever, for the first time, I would not stand outside and start questioning people's intentions. Maybe that is just me.

I did start to work up the May Day photos, had one, but now I am starting at the beginning and working my way through. An island church, and wires in the sky, through the trees, etc, for everything. I told bill if they ever suggested the idea of underground wires, I would be glad.

It is a beautiful thing, very special, that crowning.

ginger

bystander, at this point, I mostly do landscape and birds. Until I start handing out releases, it is so frustrating to have a good photo and not be able to use it. Greaper, don't you get the landscapes together and lobbying for releases. Enough strange things are protected anyway, as we have also discussed...........bldgs.

Angelo · May 16, 2005

wow, this topic sure does come up a lot, huh?

I'm with Lucky... I politely challenge the person questioning me to "prove" they know not what they say.

Regardless of the situation or the location I think it's important to educate. If we don't assert our rights under the law (politely) then our antagonizers feel energized to continue challenging us.

Nick · May 22, 2005

Angelo wrote:

wow, this topic sure does come up a lot, huh?

I'm with Lucky... I politely challenge the person questioning me to "prove" they know not what they say.

Regardless of the situation or the location I think it's important to educate. If we don't assert our rights under the law (politely) then our antagonizers feel energized to continue challenging us.

It seems to me that you are forgetting that when in a public venue, anyone and anything is fair game. You can take pictures of anything or anyone you want, but you are restricted in the manner in which you use them. Also stop wearing your feelings on your shirt sleeve. When first asked, you simply could have taken the time to explain that you were contracted to take these pictures, and if she had children there she should point them out and you would refrain from talking their picture if she kept them out of your intended field of view. That is being civil and kind. After that If she had a problem with what I was doing, I would have changed my tone and tactics and told her to go pound salt. Everyone has a right to have a camera and take pictures. If you sell them or publish them, you need a release. But if you wer3e to post them on the church bulitin board, and her kids ventured into your field of view, she has no sound basis to object. They are there, and it is a public place and public event. Sounds to me like a very un Christian woman was somehow invited to a Christian event and did not know how to act. Shame on her.

luckyrwe · May 22, 2005

Nick,

If you sell of publish the pictures you need a release SOMETIMES. If the pictures are newsworthy they do not need a release. Very few newspaper reports, photographers, or freelancers need a release for the front page picture of the day. Check out your 6 o'clock news, I doubt there are releases for the images you see on TV.

If you are famous your image apparently is out there for everyone. If Madonna sneezes in front of me I can take all the pictures I want and sell them.

I myself have shot tens of thousands of pictures for publication, even for books, with no release.

Many textbook images do not need a release. I do not follow the details but there is something about textbook images that do not need releases.

If the subject is not identifiable you do not need a release. On the David Letterman show they use street images of New York at commercial breaks, and identifiable people have fake beards and mistaches added.

I have been to venues where I see signs saying that recording is in progress, and entering the establishment is acceptance of your image being used.

This weekend I have a photo shoot in a public venue. I will make money off the images but the images wil not end up in advertising or other venues where a release is needed.

What does this all mean? It means you may want to pay a lawyer $500 to be able to call him in a pinch. I can shoot a perfectly acceptable photo and get sued. Yes I will win in court but in the meantime I have all these hassles in the meantime. There are exceptions to every rule, and exceptions to those too. It's nutty.

But I would not trade it for all the money in the world.

Photographers who annoy me

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