Can smugmug liscense your images any way they want?

rmc360

I’m considering using your site. As a pro photographer, the following paragraph concerns me. Does this indeed say “Smugmug can use my posted photos for any reason, sold, rented leased or given away?

“Unless otherwise indicated, the Site andall content and other materials on the Site, including, without limitation, the SmugMug logo and all designs, text, graphics, logos, icons, images, photographs, audio clips, video clips, digital downloads, data compilations, software and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively, the "Materials") are the property of SmugMug or its licensors or users and are protected by United States and international copyright laws.”

“You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site, including the right to use the name that is submitted in connection with such Content. You further understand and agree that, in order to help ensure smooth operation of our system, we may keep backup copies of Content indefinitely.”

Please clarify this issue for me.
Richard McNamee

leaforte

rmc360 wrote:

I’m considering using your site. As a pro photographer, the following paragraph concerns me. Does this indeed say “Smugmug can use my posted photos for any reason, sold, rented leased or given away?

“Unless otherwise indicated, the Site andall content and other materials on the Site, including, without limitation, the SmugMug logo and all designs, text, graphics, logos, icons, images, photographs, audio clips, video clips, digital downloads, data compilations, software and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively, the "Materials") are the property of SmugMug or its licensors or users and are protected by United States and international copyright laws.”

“You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site, including the right to use the name that is submitted in connection with such Content. You further understand and agree that, in order to help ensure smooth operation of our system, we may keep backup copies of Content indefinitely.”

Please clarify this issue for me.
Richard McNamee

true?

denisegoldberg

I suspect you haven't highlighted enough of that first paragraph, specifically "are the property of SmugMug or its licensors or users and are protected by United States and international copyright laws."

Your photos are your property, not Smug's - and they are not trying to take ownership of your copyrighted property. But of course you knew that...

--- Denise

Pittspilot

rmc360 wrote:

I’m considering using your site. As a pro photographer, the following paragraph concerns me. Does this indeed say “Smugmug can use my posted photos for any reason, sold, rented leased or given away?

“Unless otherwise indicated, the Site andall content and other materials on the Site, including, without limitation, the SmugMug logo and all designs, text, graphics, logos, icons, images, photographs, audio clips, video clips, digital downloads, data compilations, software and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively, the "Materials") are the property of SmugMug or its licensors or users and are protected by United States and international copyright laws.”

“You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site, including the right to use the name that is submitted in connection with such Content. You further understand and agree that, in order to help ensure smooth operation of our system, we may keep backup copies of Content indefinitely.”

Please clarify this issue for me.
Richard McNamee

I read the first para as a general statement that all content IS copyright. Included are Licensors and Users. I read that as YOU.

The second para makes is clear that YOU own your copyright, but that you give SM rights to publish on their site. They do need some rights (you may debate how much :-) in order to do the things you want them to do for you. Their rights are limited to those listed.

I don't read that as an overly onerous set of trems (I'm a Pro user BTW).

Cheers

Pupator

rmc360 wrote:

“Unless otherwise indicated, the Site andall content and other materials on the Site, including, without limitation, the SmugMug logo and all designs, text, graphics, logos, icons, images, photographs, audio clips, video clips, digital downloads, data compilations, software and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively, the "Materials") are the property of SmugMug or its licensors or users and are protected by United States and international copyright laws.”

You stopped your emphasis too soon! Look right after the part you highlighted: "OR its licensors or users." So that paragraph does not indicate that Smugmug takes ownership of your stuff. In fact, the first sentence of the next section you quoted reveals that you do retain the copyright:

“You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site, including the right to use the name that is submitted in connection with such Content. You further understand and agree that, in order to help ensure smooth operation of our system, we may keep backup copies of Content indefinitely.”

Of course Smugmug has a right to use, "publish.....ON THE SITE." How else could they display your images?

Andy

those terms protect our stuff and allow us to show your stuff on the site. We want NO INTEREST in your images or IP. Your stuff is yours.

I'm sorry the legal mumbo jumbo confusted you!

Holler with any more q's - ok?

rmc360

Andy wrote:

those terms protect our stuff and allow us to show your stuff on the site. We want NO INTEREST in your images or IP. Your stuff is yours.

I'm sorry the legal mumbo jumbo confusted you!

Holler with any more q's - ok?

I get that I own the copyright and that Smugmug intends to just use the images for marketing smugmug. The terms as written, specifty that Smugmug has any and all rights as well “You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site" Perhaps your legal team could restate that. There are members of ths ASMP that feel this is preventing them from using your site. Intentions are one thing. Clear legalize makes people happy. I would love to get on board and let other photographers know that this issue has been cleared up

Andy

rmc360 wrote:

I get that I own the copyright and that Smugmug intends to just use the images for marketing smugmug. The terms as written, specifty that Smugmug has any and all rights as well “You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site" Perhaps your legal team could restate that. There are members of ths ASMP that feel this is preventing them from using your site. Intentions are one thing. Clear legalize makes people happy. I would love to get on board and let other photographers know that this issue has been cleared up

Thanks for this, it's great feedback - and I'm in the midst of clarifying our terms now. But the net of our terms is that we only want rights to display your work on SmugMug - we want no financial or other interest in your work - EVER EVER EVER

JohnBiggs

rmc360 wrote:

I get that I own the copyright and that Smugmug intends to just use the images for marketing smugmug. The terms as written, specifty that Smugmug has any and all rights as well “You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site" Perhaps your legal team could restate that. There are members of ths ASMP that feel this is preventing them from using your site. Intentions are one thing. Clear legalize makes people happy. I would love to get on board and let other photographers know that this issue has been cleared up

I'm sorry, but have you read the terms on many photo or forum sites? It's much worse. I'm not even sure HOW you could lighten these words for smugmug and you don't offer any suggestions.

I looked for ASMP's forum terms and conditions. I couldn't find them. No terms are just as bad. Maybe you could show me where those are?

dogwood

Just my two-cents and I know this has ZERO legal standing anywhere in any court in any place in the universe.

... but one nice thing about SM is that you can reach actual people when you have a problem with how your images may be used. For example, I entered a dgrin contest a few years ago and unwittingly agreed (by entering the contest) that dgrin could use one of my images in it's banner.

I didn't realize that was one of the rules of the contest, and when I saw my image in the banner, I asked Andy to remove it. He pointed out that indeed I had given permission for the photo to be used (which was true) but he also removed the image right away.

It's been my experience that SM is interested in long-term relationships with photographers, and they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot by using photos (even if they can) if it upsets a photographer.

Look at it this way-- you probably have everyone you shoot sign a release, right? Just because you can use ANY image of them from that session doesn't mean you're going to, and if they complain about the image you're using, you'll probably just take a deep breath and stop using it (even though you have their legal permission to use it).

Yeah, a lawyer would cringe over my post but sometimes (yes, even these days) you really can take someone at their word. It's been my experience that Andy (and the others at SM) are people who can be trusted and who are not out to grab your photos and start using them all over the place without your permission.

Cygnus Studios

All of the Smugmug team have consistantly gone above and beyond addressing any members concerns and issues. Their customer service has been as good or better than any I have come across.
The fact that Andy among others not only provide us with the opportunity to share our views on this forum, but personally answer them goes a long way with me. For what little its worth, Smugmug has earned my trust and my business.

Pittspilot

rmc360 wrote:

I get that I own the copyright and that Smugmug intends to just use the images for marketing smugmug. The terms as written, specifty that Smugmug has any and all rights as well “You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site" Perhaps your legal team could restate that. There are members of ths ASMP that feel this is preventing them from using your site. Intentions are one thing. Clear legalize makes people happy. I would love to get on board and let other photographers know that this issue has been cleared up

I'm curious why you think those terms onerous? What are ASMP members reading that we are not seeing?

As I read the 'you grant..' that is the minimum that SM would need in order to be able to show on a screen, resize, allow YOU to sell (e.g. download a copy, resize to print, if you choose to allow that, etc).

I guess the question is 'What Am I missing' here :-))

Cheers

Kalrog

rmc360 wrote:

I get that I own the copyright and that Smugmug intends to just use the images for marketing smugmug. The terms as written, specifty that Smugmug has any and all rights as well “You retain all copyright in any Content you post in any Interactive Areas. However, by posting any Content or otherwise participating in any Interactive Area, you grant SmugMug a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site"Perhaps your legal team could restate that. There are members of ths ASMP that feel this is preventing them from using your site. Intentions are one thing. Clear legalize makes people happy. I would love to get on board and let other photographers know that this issue has been cleared up

Highlighting a different area - I read this to only apply when you post stuff here in the forums. That would be the interactive area. And I am sure it is intended to apply to the contests (hence the prizes offered), but the way it is written I would take it to mean anything in any of the forums. But nothing that is in your regular galleries. Yes?

rmc360

I'm convinced that the current owner and operators of Smugmug have no evil intentions. They are sympathetic and supportive of all the photographers in this community. In the legal section, "unlimited right to distribute" could mean anything from sell to give away. That is not their intention. Now if the company was sold to Corbis or ATT or whoever, the clarity of that sentence might not mean what it was intended to be. Several stock companies have had this happen. If it was more spelled out it would be beyond discussion. That is my suggestion, so that no one has to say "That's not the way I read it." Show this to an actual intellectual property lawyer. PDN often publishes stories of legal battles gone wrong. I’m going to be optimistic and build a web page on Smugmug.:ivar

Moogle Pepper

rmc360 wrote:

I'm convinced that the current owner and operators of Smugmug have no evil intentions. They are sympathetic and supportive of all the photographers in this community. In the legal section, "unlimited right to distribute" could mean anything from sell to give away. That is not their intention. Now if the company was sold to Corbis or ATT or whoever, the clarity of that sentence might not mean what it was intended to be. Several stock companies have had this happen. If it was more spelled out it would be beyond discussion. That is my suggestion, so that no one has to say "That's not the way I read it." Show this to an actual intellectual property lawyer. PDN often publishes stories of legal battles gone wrong. I’m going to be optimistic and build a web page on Smugmug.:ivar

Do eet!! Welcome to the club!!

RogersDA

The rights granted to SM are non-exclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site.

The Site is expressly defined in the agreement as being Smugmug.com.

The terms distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt, and display are each required for SM to properly display your images (which oftentimes requires reproducing and adapting the images and videos for various sizes) on its computers (the Site). This language protects them from frivolous lawsuits.

The terms of the agreement do not extend to them giving away or selling your images which are your content and which you are the owner thereof. The agreement already states that some of the content is your property:

"...all content and other materials on the Site, including, without limitation, the SmugMug logo and all designs, text, graphics, logos, icons, images, photographs, audio clips, video clips, digital downloads, data compilations, software and the selection and arrangement thereof (collectively, the "Materials") are the property of SmugMug or its licensors or users and are protected by United States and international copyright laws."

If the property is yours then Smugmug would have no legal means to ursurp your rights and give away/sell electronically or in print your property (photos, for example).

This language also allows SM to display your images in areas such the "Found on SmugMug" and other areas of smugmug.com.

Pittspilot

RogersDA wrote:

The rights granted to SM are exclusive, royalty-free right to use, publish, distribute, reproduce, perform, adapt and display the Content on the Site.

NON-exclusive......

RogersDA

Pittspilot wrote:

NON-exclusive......

Fixed

davidweaver

When I read that section It meant to me that my pics are my pcis and that in order for SM to show my pics on the SM site they have to have permission from me to show my pics on their site. This is also what I am paying them to do. Legalize stuff.

Gary Peterson Photography

Thats why I love Smugmug!

Andy wrote:

those terms protect our stuff and allow us to show your stuff on the site. We want NO INTEREST in your images or IP. Your stuff is yours.

I'm sorry the legal mumbo jumbo confusted you!

Holler with any more q's - ok?

Short, to the point answer with no legal jumbo mumbo! Thanks Andy and the rest of the crew!

mchapma

Your site Smugmug?
You have a great looking site. Is the entire site powered by smugmug?

Mark Chapman
http://www.markchapmanphotography.com