HS Basketball with new 40D

Gary Miller

Ok, folks. I was at our local high school roundball game last night playing with my new 40D.

I was using a 24-70mm 2.8L and a 70-200mm 2.8L IS (with IS turned off).

Other than the horrible composition of the shots (shooting my first basketball game), I am quite disappointed with the focus on the images.

Most of the shots were set on Manual using ISO 3200, F 2.8, with various shutter speeds (mostly 1/500).

I would appreciate any input from those of you who [unlike me] know what you are doing when it comes to this sport with this equipment.

I know this camera and lens setup is capable of handling this situation. I just don't know what to do to make it happen.

Below are some images taken from the batch. The remainder are at http://garymillerphoto.smugmug.com/Sports/663607

Thanks in advance.

- Gary

Qarik

with the size of the shots I can't really tell if it is out of foucs or noise

Gary Miller

Qarik -

If you will be so kind, you can see them in a variety of sizes from full resolution down to small in my gallery.

Thanks.

- Gary

Qarik wrote:

with the size of the shots I can't really tell if it is out of foucs or noise

baldmountain

At 3200 ISO you are fighting noise. Basketball is tough since there is usually not enough light. You need to figure out the best balance between ISO, aperture and shutter speed. Try 800 ISO and your 50mm f1.8 prime. You'll have to move around a bit since you are using a fixed lens but you should be able to since it is a HS game. Bring a monopod if you have one. This is one I took of my son at basketball practice. It still has some noise, but it is tolerable I think.

Also keep in mind that with wide open apertures you will have a very shallow depth of field.

Qarik

okay so I am looking at full size..that looks more like noise issue rather then foucs but it still hard to tell because of the noise. Try iso 1600 next time to see if you can get away with it?

kini62

Combination of motion blur on the 1/250 shots and a little noise softening.

On most of the other shots the subjects are just way too small in the image to expect sharp details, especially at ISO3200.

IMO there's far too many wide shots that don't show much of anything. Again IM"H"O about the only time you should be shooting that wide is if you're right under the hoop or for a team shot. Other wise get tight on the player with the ball. Get some faces etc...

Gene

rockcanyonphotos

Based on the shots you posted, I would suggest the following:

1) Look at tightening up your shots. The 40D is a nice camera but the AF system is still going to be more challenged in low-light situations. The more you can fill your frame with the subject the more likely you are to get a sharp focus. Also remember AF systems look to contrast, so typically if you have a white uniform and a dark uniform in the same frame the AF will prefer the contrast of the darker subject.... which makes loosely framed shots more difficult when you are trying to focus on the team with the lighter uniform.

2) I find that I can reduce some of the noise issues when shooting in a gym by shooting manual and over exposing just a bit. Now I shoot RAW which gives me a little leeway to bring things back I haven't shot JPG in so long I couldn't tell you what the results would be like in that mode.

3) DOF.... play around with the following DOF Calculator

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

it will give you a good idea of just how shallow the DOF will be with your equipment set-up. This will also help you see how important it is to pick your point of focus even when your are filling a frame with a subject at f2.8 and below.

regards, Kevin

johng

Gary - you need to frame WAY, WAY tighter in-camera. Shoot in portrait orientation and make sure your subject fills at least 3/4 of the vertical frame. You'll see your focus accuracy go way up.

JohnEBongo

I have to agree with Gene, Kevin and JohnG. You need to shoot tighter. Get closer to the court if you need to. And please do not even think about using a monopod for shooting basketball. It is not necessary and could cause some serious injury to you or the players if you can't get out of the way fast enough.

baldmountain

JohnEBongo wrote:

And please do not even think about using a monopod for shooting basketball. It is not necessary and could cause some serious injury to you or the players if you can't get out of the way fast enough.

No monopod? My son and I went to the Celtics game Mon night. Every photographer courtside was using a monopod without exception.

JohnEBongo

baldmountain wrote:

No monopod? My son and I went to the Celtics game Mon night. Every photographer courtside was using a monopod without exception.

If that's the case then I stand corrected. I guess the pros use a mono for a large lens to reach the far end of the court, and a 2nd body for the near side. I don't have that luxury.

baldmountain

JohnEBongo wrote:

If that's the case then I stand corrected. I guess the pros use a mono for a large lens to reach the far end of the court, and a 2nd body for the near side. I don't have that luxury.

Now that I think about it more, I think you are right and I am wrong. IIRC many had two cameras. One on a monopod and one on a strap around their neck. One long lens and one short.

Gary,

I'm going to make another suggestion. (I'm learning too, so take my advice with a grain of salt.) Put your camera in sports mode and take some shots. See what the camera chooses and how the pictures look. Use that as a starting point and explore from there. (I don't know if the 40D has a sports mode or will display exif info on camera. My Nikon D50 does and I use it.) Many resources emphatically suggest not using sports mode. But us newbies need a reasonable starting point and sports mode gives us that while we learn to frame sports shots.

Oh and have a look at the sticky thread at the top of the Sports forum. "So you want to shoot sports? Tips, techniques and other Resources" And read the "Other Resources" links too. They are very good.

Like the above sticky thread says, Practice!

johng

Unfortunately sports mode on canon isn't an option for basketball. Sports mode locks ISO at 400 - too low to work for basketball.

cecilc

baldmountain wrote:

I'm going to make another suggestion. (I'm learning too, so take my advice with a grain of salt.) Put your camera in sports mode and take some shots.

johng wrote:

Unfortunately sports mode on canon isn't an option for basketball. Sports mode locks ISO at 400 - too low to work for basketball.

Actually, sports mode shouldn't be an option for ANY sports shooting ... The camera chooses all of your settings, and you really don't want that - not even as a "starting point".

You're really better off shooting in manual mode for high school basketball - the "automatic" modes are way too unpredictable in that light.

baldmountain

cecilc wrote:

Actually, sports mode shouldn't be an option for ANY sports shooting ... The camera chooses all of your settings, and you really don't want that - not even as a "starting point".

You're really better off shooting in manual mode for high school basketball - the "automatic" modes are way too unpredictable in that light.

It's unfortunate that the Canon sports mode locks at ISO 400. That really is too low for basketball. On my Nikon it seems to choose ISO 800 and favor wide open apertures in sports mode. This allows me to forget about exposure and learn to take a decent sports shot. I believe there are two parts to taking a decent sports shot. The first is the technical which we have been talking about. The second is artistic. This involves catching the players at the peak of the action. You pros have the technical part down and are either working on or have mastered the artistic part. To try and learn both the technical and artistic at the same time is a big mountain to climb. I wonder how many people give up on basketball because that mountain is just too big to get over?

sportsshooter06

baldmountain wrote:

No monopod? My son and I went to the Celtics game Mon night. Every photographer courtside was using a monopod without exception.

they may be using monopods for 300mm or longer lenses. they shoot and the pod goes down. they hand hold everything else.

the monopod is not a crutch for poor technique or not knowing how to use your equipment.

putting a 50mm lens on a monopod, makes you look foolish. think about it.

porfessional shooters use monopods for the weight of the lens and the camera, not as a crutch. many handhold a 300mm, i handhold a 300mm sometimes, because it is easier to shoot.

john bongo is right, a pod can be a danger. i used a 300mm on a pod last night, the gym was smallish and had very little room, between the ends of the court and the backwall, the 300mm was great, but because i was shooting, from behind and to the right of the basket, my lens was almost in the court, i was ok, but we did have to pay close attention.

leave your monopod at home, you are not a pro, and you will look foolish.

Gary Miller

Thanks for all the input. It's funny, but even though I've looked at thousands of basketball pics, my brain makes me want to include everything on the court in a shot. I know it's not supposed to be that way, but I do it anyway. Maybe if I ditch the 24-70 and only use the 70-200, it will force me to tighten up the shots.

I knew when I posted the images that cropping would be something that drew a lot of comments. My main concern was focus. I was afraid these [brand new] lenses weren't working properly. Apparently, from your comments, the problem is the shooter and not the equipment.

I have another opportunity for improvement next Tuesday, so I will try once more and share the results.

Thanks again.

- Gary

winger

Gary Miller wrote:

Thanks for all the input. It's funny, but even though I've looked at thousands of basketball pics, my brain makes me want to include everything on the court in a shot. I know it's not supposed to be that way, but I do it anyway. Maybe if I ditch the 24-70 and only use the 70-200, it will force me to tighten up the shots.

I think that was one of the biggest problems I had to overcome was cropping in camera. Your brain is like "take it all crop later", but trust me when you get in close with the lens, you really will come up with some spectaular shots, and you will find it hard to "go wide" again.

That being said your short lens certainly have a place on the hoospy bounce court. When I still shot basketball, I loved taking a short lens and sitting right under the hoop, you get some great shots from there of people working the paint.

That being said, I use my 70-200 for about 90% if not more of my sport work, it is my workhorse and it gets almost everything I need. Stick with that for now, at half time, rather than chimping thru the card ( I dont know if you do or not) take the time to review your photos, see if you need to make any changes.

When I first started shooting hockey, I didnt go straight to manual, althought I at least knew enough to not go into some mode. I shot with AF priority, knowing that the light was junk...set it at that and let the camera figure out the shutter speed. At least then you get into the habit of making some of the decisions for my camera. Then kind of quickly jump into manual mode, you will find you get better shots.

Also custom white balance your camera at each gym, it is very easy to do and it will get rid of all that yellow in camera, when you are shooting.

And finally here are the tips I pass on to any sportsshooter starting out.

1) Aim for FACES, faces tell the story, the highs the lows
2) Get in close, blood sweat and tears baby!
3) Background, nice clean background, nothing distracts a great action shot like stands, some kid with his finger in his nose extra. For hoops one way to get clean backgrounds would be to shoot from the ends. Also getting higher (small step stool, althought I wouldnt do this on the end zone) taking a knee or sitting down will do wonders for cleaning up the backgrounds.

That is it, 3 things. Keep those in mind and you will bring home great sports shots. Think about when you look at ESPN or SI. What are the photos like, they are tight, with faces and clean backgrounds. Yes there are exceptions to ALL of that, but most of them will have those 3 tips I just suggjested.

Gary Miller

Thanks Karen. I appreciate your advice. I am really getting eager to go back next week and put all the recommendations that I've received on this forum to work.

I never cease to be amazed at not only the wealth of information that is available on dGrin, but how willing those "in the know" are to share their knowledge.

I am delighted to be on the receiving end right now and hope to be on the giving end one day.

- Gary

P.S. You mentioned custom white balancing the camera at each gym. Is there a particular way you do that, other than using a white (or gray card)?

- g~

winger wrote:

I think that was one of the biggest problems I had to overcome was cropping in camera. Your brain is like "take it all crop later", but trust me when you get in close with the lens, you really will come up with some spectaular shots, and you will find it hard to "go wide" again.

That being said your short lens certainly have a place on the hoospy bounce court. When I still shot basketball, I loved taking a short lens and sitting right under the hoop, you get some great shots from there of people working the paint.

That being said, I use my 70-200 for about 90% if not more of my sport work, it is my workhorse and it gets almost everything I need. Stick with that for now, at half time, rather than chimping thru the card ( I dont know if you do or not) take the time to review your photos, see if you need to make any changes.

When I first started shooting hockey, I didnt go straight to manual, althought I at least knew enough to not go into some mode. I shot with AF priority, knowing that the light was junk...set it at that and let the camera figure out the shutter speed. At least then you get into the habit of making some of the decisions for my camera. Then kind of quickly jump into manual mode, you will find you get better shots.

Also custom white balance your camera at each gym, it is very easy to do and it will get rid of all that yellow in camera, when you are shooting.

And finally here are the tips I pass on to any sportsshooter starting out.

1) Aim for FACES, faces tell the story, the highs the lows
2) Get in close, blood sweat and tears baby!
3) Background, nice clean background, nothing distracts a great action shot like stands, some kid with his finger in his nose extra. For hoops one way to get clean backgrounds would be to shoot from the ends. Also getting higher (small step stool, althought I wouldnt do this on the end zone) taking a knee or sitting down will do wonders for cleaning up the backgrounds.

That is it, 3 things. Keep those in mind and you will bring home great sports shots. Think about when you look at ESPN or SI. What are the photos like, they are tight, with faces and clean backgrounds. Yes there are exceptions to ALL of that, but most of them will have those 3 tips I just suggjested.