n00b needs some advice

Tenacious B

I'm finally going to get a camera, but I'm not sure what exactly, looking in the $200 ps range.

I had the idea of getting an "advanced" ps (the ones that look like DSLRs and have 15x+ zoom) from a lesser brand (i.e. not Nikon or Canon) instead of getting a compact ps.

So would something like http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Sony-Cyber-shot-DSC-H10-8-1MP-Cybershot-NIB_W0QQitemZ220329633064QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item220329633064&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/PANASONIC-LUMIX-DMC-FZ18-8-1MP-CAMERA-BLACK-LEICA_W0QQitemZ120349714698QQcmdZViewItemQQptZDigital_Cameras?hash=item120349714698&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1234|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50

be a better camera than an equivalently priced compact ps like Coolpix Sxxx/Stylus/Powershot SD? All of the electronic wizardry isn't of interest to me, I'd rather have fewer gadgets and more glass.

Thanks!

Grainbelt

Be realistic about how much zoom you really need. Keep in mind that none of the P&S cameras will excel in low light, you'll be using lots of flash.

An alternative would be the Canon Powershot A-series cameras, which offer full manual control and an optical viewfinder, with a shorter zoom and a lower price point. Here are the specs of the A720IS from dpreview.

I had a Canon S5 IS until my recent SLR purchase, and really enjoyed it.

Robinivich

My vote is for the Panasonic over the Sony, I'm curious though, as to why you want to rule out Canon and Nikon? Is it the same reason I bought an mp3 player that's not an ipod?

Seems like a nice choice of camera, and the manual controls have an excellent reputation.

Art Scott

T,

Might I offer another opinion....A camera that both Ziggy and I use is the Konica Minolta A2 {8MP}........a fantastic camera, small enuff to fit in a coat pocket but not a shirt pocket ps.....what I truly like about the camera....one low iso (64), 2 it fits well in ones hand, 3- it has a movable focus point....not dashes or dots that one can choose but a focus point that can be moved anywhere in the view finder.......how I use this is for art shooting (NO not shooting me or myself:D).......say I have several items in a sorta line and want a particular point to focus on......move the focus point over to that point and it is done....it keeps me from straining my eyes when doing funky focusing like mentioned above.....
the lens is a 28-200 equiv in 35mm and very sharp and it has a very nice macro lock also.....they shoot in raw and jpeg or just raw or just jpg........

they are still readily available on ebay from a $100+ upto ~~ $500

Tenacious B

I might not have been clear in my previous post.

I've set a target price of about $200, and now I am looking around for the best cameras that can be had at that price. I am also debating what type of camera to get (a compact ps or one of the larger ones with more zoom etc).

The Nikon P80 is a really nice camera, but I don't see any in my price range; the Canons of similar equipment level are also out of my range. This had me thinking of getting something smaller like the Coolpix S series (and those like it) c, but then I found the Pan. and Sony linked above. I assumed that these are in price price range while the Nikons and Canons are not was due to Nikon and Canon being the top companies making fancier gear. (granted Sony and Panasonic are hardly no names)

So my question is: For the same price, is an "advanced" ps with 12x+ zoom from Sony/Pan/etc going to provide better photos than a compact ps with <7x zoom from Nikon/Canon.

Honestly, the brand names and the specific cameras I have mentioned have little to do with it, I just bring them up to give examples of the types of cameras I am considering and comparing. I just don't want to by something like the Sony thinking that I am getting a better camera. I guess I don't really know how to estimate the picture quality of a camera based on its specs.<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/headscratch.gif" border="0" alt="" >


I think it might be easier to find the best motorcycle tires and oil than to find the best camera.:giggle

Robinivich

Might I suggest some research at http://dpreview.com?

They're running a series of "Holiday" group comparisons, for different categories of cameras, which I've been enjoying reading. They've done budget, ultra-compact, and luxury compacts, and they've got enthusiast and super-zooms coming up in a bit. Reading through a bit of that might give you a good enough idea what you want.

Also, is there a specific goal you have in mind? Social snaps of friends, vacations, learning more serious photography, sports, or is it a very general purpose "think I need a camera, not sure which to get"

Hope this helps!

ziggy53

Tenacious B, first welcome to the Digital Grin.

I am rather a fan of the FujiFilm "F" compact series cameras. In particular, the F100fd is available now with a $100 mail-in rebate which would bring it into your ultimate purchase range.

Features:

5x optical zoom, 28-140mm equivalent, image stabilized.
Very nice ISO 100-800, usable ISO 1600 for many subjects.
Excellent dynamic range at lower ISOs. Responds well to post-processing.
SD/SDHC card capable.
Plenty of megapixels.

Pupator

I wouldn't rule out a used camera either. I've seen Sony F828s and Panasonic FZ50s on local Craigslists and message boards in the $200 range. Both of those are great cameras for what you want to do.

Tenacious B

Thanks for the replies!

dpreview looks like a great site, it is nice to see actual pictures from the cameras (I know the manufacturers show pics, but I don't trust them).

Seeing as how nice these little cameras are nowadays I think something like the F100fd would be plenty. I'll have to do some reading and get my hands on them at the store soon. I plan on hitting those after Christmas sales.

ziggy53

Tenacious B wrote:

Thanks for the replies!

dpreview looks like a great site, it is nice to see actual pictures from the cameras (I know the manufacturers show pics, but I don't trust them).

Seeing as how nice these little cameras are nowadays I think something like the F100fd would be plenty. I'll have to do some reading and get my hands on them at the store soon. I plan on hitting those after Christmas sales.

If you wait too long you may not be able to find a new F100fd. They are pretty popular right now because of the rebate and they are probably out of production so just selling off inventory.

jforbes

A common theme I always see amongst people new to photography these days is wanting to get the camera with the biggest zoom, as opposed to something that's fine for them to learn on.

In actuality, the zoom will come in useful, but you might be better served with something cheaper. Your photos won't be any worse for wear, as they're all limited by their sensor size.

The $110 Canon A590IS has just as much control as all of the superzooms around, though it lacks the huge zoom range, it makes up for it in being something that will be happy in your pocket. At $110, you can't go wrong with it, seriously.

Nikon actually makes somewhat subpar P&S cameras, they're pretty average in general.

I'd look at Canon and Panasonic, primarily, they tend to be the most consistent, well rounded brands when it comes to P&S cameras.

At a higher price range, I'd be looking at a Panasonic LX-3. That is a serious little camera.

In my opinion, the superzooms share some of the biggest downsides of an SLR (namely, they won't fit in your pocket), and all of the downsides of a P&S, namely the small sensor, crap high ISO performance, slowish focusing, somewhat crammed controls. Really, the only significant plus they have is zoom range.

Tenacious B

I found a Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX150 in my price range, looks pretty high brow and I like the look of the controls, should be easy to operate by feel. I think I'll hit the store within the next few days to start looking.

jforbes

Tenacious B wrote:

I found a Panasonic Lumix DMC-FX150 in my price range, looks pretty high brow and I like the look of the controls, should be easy to operate by feel. I think I'll hit the store within the next few days to start looking.

That's a decent camera, but the megapixels won't do you much good. If you can see an LX-3 or FX-500 in your price range, IMO they are both better than the FX-150. The FX-500 gets you a wider wide end, a touch more on the telephoto end, the LX-3 gets you a very nice wide angle, though nothing on the telephoto side. More importantly, both of them offer full control of the shot, whereas the FX-150 isn't really much different than the lower end cameras - not even shutter/aperture priority mode to shoot in.

Tenacious B

Went to the stores today and was mostly disappointed. The cameras are so small and cheap feeling nowadays.

The only ps that I liked was the G10, there was also a Fuji and a Kodak (both high zoom) that were alright. I wasn't impressed with anything Nikon (which was a surprise to me).

All of them had way too much electronic crap to scroll through before it would take a decent picture. All I want is a lens, CCD, and a shutter. I don't want a camera with iDrive and Vista.


Now the 50D - that is a camera. It even made the inside of Best Buy look good, and I didn't know what the hell I was doing too.:D Who wants to sell me theirs for $300?

Tenacious B

I've been looking around on ebay a bit for older DSLRs.

The Canon D30 can be had in my price range.

Would this be a good rout to go?

ziggy53

Tenacious B wrote:

I've been looking around on ebay a bit for older DSLRs.

The Canon D30 can be had in my price range.

Would this be a good rout to go?

The Canon 30D is still a great camera, but then you would have to buy:

Lens(es)
Flash(es)
etc.

I mean you will start the journey that so many here before you have begun to travel, ... and it never ends.

This is quite a departure from your original plans, but it could be a significant turning point in your life.

Tenacious B

Well, I never intended to get a dslr, but the point and shoots were such a pain, at least the ones I saw today. The DSLRs were more of a point and shoot affair for me than the actual ps cameras.

I did find a d30 with 2 lenses, but I guess a flash would be needed too.

One concern with using an older camera is file transfer to the PC, I'm not sure I'd be able to use it at work (not allowed to download software to our PCs).

Also finding D70 Nikons for about 350...I'm going to head out tomorrow and try to see a D80 to get an idea.

bandgeekndb

Just to throw in my 2 cents, as long as you're using Windows XP where the drivers for a card reader are built in, you should be fine. I don't know what you were planning to do with the files once off your camera, but you don't need software just to get them off the camera (unless you shoot RAW, but I don't think that needs to be in your immediate future).

Good luck with your decision!
~Nick

Art Scott

to down load all you need is a USB connection and a card reader.....I bought my card readers at SAMs club over 5 yrs ago for less than $10 on sale.....SanDisk make a very good reader for around $30-50 and can be had at best buy and such places......it is much faster to download thru a card reader than off camera it self and does not drain camera battery.............

but if you cannot download or load software onto your computer at work....would they want you loading photos off a camera????

Tenacious B

Photos are fine at work, just not software. I have something I need to take a pic of in a few weeks (nothing artsy, just a "oh, so that is how it is connected" pic).


I might be able to use a card reader at work, if not, if it is easy enough to use at home I can email them to myself if they aren't too large (or zipped maybe).

Tenacious B

Been ebay hunting again, I'm finding EOS 300D Rebel in the 225-250 range w/18-55mm lens, that sounds just about perfect. I'm going to look at the latest Rebel to try to get an idea of what they are like. This is a nice find since I liked the Canons better than the Nikons so far, so a Canon DSLR for 250 would do the trick for me.

either that, or I found a D30 (not 30D - different cameras!) w/28-90mm lens (no flash) for 275, I'll see which line (Dxx or Rebel) I like better tomorrow.

Anything to be warned about?

ziggy53

Tenacious B wrote:

Been ebay hunting again, I'm finding EOS 300D Rebel in the 225-250 range w/18-55mm lens, that sounds just about perfect. I'm going to look at the latest Rebel to try to get an idea of what they are like. This is a nice find since I liked the Canons better than the Nikons so far, so a Canon DSLR for 250 would do the trick for me.

either that, or I found a D30 (not 30D - different cameras!) w/28-90mm lens (no flash) for 275, I'll see which line (Dxx or Rebel) I like better tomorrow.

Anything to be warned about?

Both the Canon 300D and the D30 are old cameras with fairly old technology. In the case of the D30 that was the very first of the Canon "prosumer" cameras and the responsiveness is slow and the resolution pretty low by any modern standard. Repairs on a D30 are likely to be a problem, they are that old. (That's why I thought you were talking about the 30D.)

The least Canon camera I can honestly recommend is the 350D/XT. I have 3 of these lovelies (one is a dedicated IR camera) and they are much more responsive and I have used 2 of them professionally. In good light the autofocus is quite good and indoors in poor light I use a flash with a focus assist light and they are still quite good. They are mostly used as an assistant camera now days, but they work fine. (I use the Canon 1D MKII as my camera of choice for paying gigs.)

Don't be fooled by the XT's lack of heft. They are a stainless steel chassis with a fiber reinforced plastic body. While they won't tolerate abuse as much as some cameras, they handle normal use just fine. I have mounted the EF 70-200mm, f2.8L without problem and even used an old 500mm beast without apparent flexing.

KEH has XTs starting under $300USD and they have the kit lenses starting under $60.

XTs also show up in our own Flea Market pretty frequently and very reasonable prices.

The Nikon D70 is a pretty capable camera, but I would go for a D70S instead as a fair number of the original D70 are starting to have imager problems.

Olympus and Pentax also have some very nice offerings in used budget cameras of very high quality, although in older cameras the Canon's do have a high-ISO, low-noise edge.

http://www.keh.com

Canon 350D/XT reviews:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos350d/page28.asp
http://www.dcviews.com/reviews/Canon-350D/Canon-EOS-350D-review.htm
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/rebelxt_pg7.html

Pupator

I'll quit beating this dead horse in just a moment.

You really should consider some of the older pro-sumer cameras. Look at the Sony F828, look at the Panasonic FZ50. I had both of these cameras and loved them.

If you want to go DSLR, that's fine, but heed Ziggy's wise words about what you're getting into. First you'll buy an older body and a cheap lens. Then you'll be unhappy with the performance of that lens so you'll hunt around and find a good deal on a better one. Then you'll want more coverage so you'll hunt around and find a second lens, but being unhappy with the quality of it you'll upgrade to a slightly nicer one. Then you'll play with a different DSLR body and realize that it's holding you back and you want to upgrade it so you'll bite the bullet and get a nicer body. Then (gasp) you'll realize how well it could perform with an even better lens......

This makes no mention of the iterations of memory cards, flashes, bags, and other accessories you'll work your way through.

Don't get me wrong I LOVE my DSLR but life was much, much simplier and MUCH, MUCH cheaper when I was using the Panny or the F828. My pictures are better now but good grief, they were better than the rest of my family's/friend's pictures (and good enough for me!) before I had the expensive toys!

:deadhorse I'm done now.

Tenacious B

I just bought the Samsung TL34HD.

Yeah I know, not what I was talking about at all.

The first thing I plan to do with my camera, and the reason for buying one in the first place, was to sell my motorcycle (:cry). Pictures are mandatory, but I thought a nice HD video of the bike running would really add to my ad since it is such a good sounding bike. So the idea of a DSLR wouldn't really fit that, and I'd honestly like to see what kind of photography I end up doing and equipping myself for that; I'd probably end up with a better setup for less money in the long run that way. I don't have a lot of time to travel and take great pitures even thouhg I would like to, so I had to be a bit more honest with myself. It is easy to get caught up in all the great pictures here and say "yeah, I'm going to do that to!" Maybe someday I will, but for now I still need to learn how to take pictures of something other than photons (did grad research using lasers for combustion diagnostics - big fancy cameras, lots of glass, powerful lasers etc.:cool)

I think it would be ideal to have a small ps for carrying around and taking quick pics, then gettingn into DSLRs when I'm more experienced and have a better idea of what I'll be shooting. So, this little camera will be the first step.

I picked the Samsung for a few reasons.

1. Seems like it takes good pics, at least good enough for my non-professional self.

2. HD video, as stated above, will help me sell my bike and is a nice feature to have.

3. It is easy to use thanks to the iPhone-style touch screen. It seems pretty intuitive and you don't have to screw around going several menu layers deep using tiny buttons. I picked it up and in seconds could take nice pics, make adjustments, shoot video, delete old pics, etc.

4. Construction is great, the metal case feels awesome in your hands. So many of the others (like Canon Powershots) seemed really flimsy by comparison.

Overall I just really liked it using it. I know the experts at dpreview weren't thrilled, but they are judging from a perspective that I don't have. For someone with no typical photography experience I think this camera will work just fine. That, and I got it for new for $179 on ebay (from beachcamera.com). I'm not sure I would spend the 250-300 on it that most stores are looking for, but for 179 it seemed like a good deal.

I do appreciate all the help, really learned a lot about cameras. I'll post some pics when it comes.:D