help! shooting hockey game, I need some advice
In November I was asked to shoot a hockey game. Since I've never shot one before I informed the coach this session would be a test shoot before we agreed to shoot more games later in the season. Walking into the place I knew right off the lighting would be horrible and difficult to shoot. One thing that was cool is the coaches let me shoot from the bench.
For the past couple of days I've been looking through the Sports section and sifting through hockey posts. I've seen some amazing youth hockey photography. I'm just wondering how you guys get you photos to look so bright? Photograph the action with crisp, clean images? And more importantly....low to no digital noise?
First thing I noticed when I got home was the WB is all over the place. I'm guessing because the indoor lights cycle. Second, the noise is horrible even at ISO1600...3200 was worse.
I've used Noiseware in post processing on my images but that doesn't seem to help. When I boost the exposure in Lightroom 2.2 or bring up the fill light or brightness, the noise seems to magnify. Also, my photos seem to have a dingy yellow look. Lightroom is reading the tempature as 4000K. Because the lighting was bad the exposure was jumping all over the place. On some photos I would boost exposure +.10 - +1.50.
I'm looking for help, tips, advice, tricks, secrets, or anything to help me improve.
Below are some photos from the game and my info.
Specs and EXIF:
I used a Canon Mark II N and a Canon 70-200L IS.
ISO 1600
Apeture f/2.8
Shutrer Speeds: 1/250-1/400
Aperture Priority
AI Servo
Evaluative metering
Auto White Balance
For the past couple of days I've been looking through the Sports section and sifting through hockey posts. I've seen some amazing youth hockey photography. I'm just wondering how you guys get you photos to look so bright? Photograph the action with crisp, clean images? And more importantly....low to no digital noise?
First thing I noticed when I got home was the WB is all over the place. I'm guessing because the indoor lights cycle. Second, the noise is horrible even at ISO1600...3200 was worse.
I've used Noiseware in post processing on my images but that doesn't seem to help. When I boost the exposure in Lightroom 2.2 or bring up the fill light or brightness, the noise seems to magnify. Also, my photos seem to have a dingy yellow look. Lightroom is reading the tempature as 4000K. Because the lighting was bad the exposure was jumping all over the place. On some photos I would boost exposure +.10 - +1.50.
I'm looking for help, tips, advice, tricks, secrets, or anything to help me improve.
Below are some photos from the game and my info.
Specs and EXIF:
I used a Canon Mark II N and a Canon 70-200L IS.
ISO 1600
Apeture f/2.8
Shutrer Speeds: 1/250-1/400
Aperture Priority
AI Servo
Evaluative metering
Auto White Balance
___________________________________________
Real men shoot in Manual Mode!
Sonny Cantu Photography | SCP Blog | SCP fb | Gametime Photography | GTP Blog | GTP fb
Real men shoot in Manual Mode!
Sonny Cantu Photography | SCP Blog | SCP fb | Gametime Photography | GTP Blog | GTP fb
0
Comments
1) Shoot in Manual Mode (its a little scary at first) - all that bright white ice really seems to throw off the metering. Look at your histogram and adjust from there.
2) Use a custome white balance - I use a picture of the ice and re-set the white balance every time I move to a different location in the rink.
My pictures are nothing compared to most of the sports photographers here, but I have definitely seen improvement in my shots simply using these two tips. Good Luck!!
Stephanie
I shoot nikon so canon is a bit different. I believe the mark is supposed to be good at higher isos. If you underexpose a shot too much & then try to bring it back in pp you will have more noise to deal with than if you expose it correctly in camera. I would guess a higher Iso 2000 + and shutter speeds at 250 to 400.
I also agree that all that white is making your meter read that the photo is bright,.... but your not shooting the ice. so maybe overexpose by a stop.
for instance when I'm shooting a cardinal in the snow I know the camera will tell me it's metered ok but when I look at the shot the bird will be too dark. so I usually have my camera shoot +1 or so.
Dave
And this thread is where i send most people -- it contains most of my hockey info.
My secret -- nail the exposure as much as possible during in camera rather than fixing in post. I can do it at most of the rinks the bay area and they're not known for the light. I can't do it in one rink, but that's because the light cycles and for those shots, I just adjust WB in selected batches since I've timed the cycle.
AWB is horrible. Use custom and for best results, use a white balance tool and my current choice is the one by Phoxle (i own seven different tools) for these reasons. You can use the ice in a pinch, but this thread will tell you that a WB tool is worth the money.
That being said, if the lights cycle, you will be adjusting the temperature things in post.
Dingy yellow signifies incorrect WB.
Every once in a while, I do everything to set the white balance, but forget to change the camera setting to custom. Oops! This is dingy yellow...
Even with changing lights, I still CWB to one of the cycles because there will be some frames that I won't have touch the temps (versus all of them). Light cycling looks like this:
Also, if you're shooting AV, you need to exposure compensate about one-stop. The ice fools the metering and you'll be underexposed.
However, you are better off going to M mode.
I hope this helps
edited: add photo of "dingy yellow" to illustrate the difference between wrong white balance and cycling of light.
I have the 1dMkIIN, and suggest you force ISO to 3200. That will really help.
I haven't shot hockey with it but do shoot indoor soccer in a total dungeon, and shoot ISO 3200, f2.2 1/320 with the 135mmf2.0. I am still underexposed but find that its not so much too add too much noise. Also can manage that in LR2. I figure if I get anything amazing, I will then invest in real noise reduction software.
ann
My Galleries My Photography BLOG
Ramblings About Me
Dave - On my first couple of test shots I noticed the LCD was showing signs of clipping on the ice. So I then adjusted my exposure -2/3 of a stop down. I was afraid of blowing out the ice a losing detail. After reading your suggestion, I was making the problem worse. Thanks for the tip!
April - First of all, I looked at your smugmug hockey galleries and I was blown away! Your stuff is amazing!!
I am shooting in RAW but not in Manual Mode. If you shoot manual, how do you keep your exposure from being under exposed or over exposed when the lighting changes on certain parts of the ice? This was obvious the first time I looked at the ice. I could see dark and bright spots. I'm guessing some of the lights are stronger than the others.
I do have a WhiBal card, but it also requires someone to hold it while I take a shot. I'll have to look into the SpectraSnap. What size SpectraSnap did you buy? Did you buy the neutral or warming version?
I will be reading through your other links. Hopefully I won't have too many more questions.
Real men shoot in Manual Mode!
Sonny Cantu Photography | SCP Blog | SCP fb | Gametime Photography | GTP Blog | GTP fb
As for exposure -- it's the same answer I give people for any subject. Know your subject and it's environment.
You are the pro -- its up to you learn where the exposure changes and adjust on the fly. In some ways, it's slightly easier than shootout outside (only slightly) because the lighting can be predictable and doesn't change like the sun. I have never told anyone that hockey photography is easy...
I know exactly what the exposure need to be, where I can and cannot shoot, which piece of glass is clean, which light is broken, which one is turned on 1/2 power, which piece of glass is tinted, what shots I can take with the exposure settings set on my camera, etc.
How do I know? Experience. And I'm always checking my histograms and focus points and I adjust as needed.
And either spectrasnap works well and I got the biggest size since of my lenses has a thread size of 105.
Post if you have any more questions and please share your results. Good luck.
David Evertsen
www.phaboulousphotos.com
www.phabulousphotos.com
Sportsshooter.com Member
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=10162
You can use something generic like a white plate, Pringles lids, the ice, etc., but this thread will tell you (with examples) that there is value in an engineered white-balance filter.
If you can spend the money and remember to use it, it will help, but in a pinch, use something white.
If that fails, fix the photos in post.
I shoot at the Dance studio a lot and the walls are pink/mauve/some nasty color with Fluorescent lights and I really need to learn CWB, get an expodisc or something like that to make life work. I end up praying the pictures don't suck up there. I can't find a descriptive setting that will work. I usually try to cure the symptom and not solve the problem of setting a CWB. This thread has been a reall Eye Opener
Thanks very much,
David Evertsen
www.phabulousphotos.com
www.phabulousphotos.com
Sportsshooter.com Member
http://www.sportsshooter.com/members.html?id=10162
My suggestions for CWB are valid for most hockey rinks (and indoor sports) that does not have lights that cycle and it's just a preference. My preference -- my choice.
The color cast can easily be fixed in post process and I've done it many times. And most pro photographers leave it on auto white balance and bulk adjust the color temperature in post process. In LR2 --- it just takes a few clicks (3? -- adjust one, select all, apply all?), and you're done for all of your photos. Painless and effortless and almost thoughtless.
It's just a matter of choice... I regularly suggest CWB since most people who ask hockey questions do not understand color temperature, do not use a post process work flow that can account for temperature shifts, and might not use color calibrated monitor.
A few pointers for shooting a hockey game. Use center point for focusing so the camera does not get mathematically confused by using 39 or 51 points. Your "ISO" should be on "AUTO SENSITIVITY", starting at 400 to 6400 [it will fluctuate for you ]. Also one should use "HIGH NR" and the key is panning properly on "AF" [lock on your subject]. Your shutter speed will vary but with a 2.8 70-200 and panning start at 500. You might get away with a step down or might have to go to 640. You DO NOT use "VR" ever on a SP over 500 [turn it off]. This is true for ALL motion shots that are being "TRACKED". Your "WB" should be on "AUTO" always as one shoots on MANUAL for all of the above [M]....increasing your shutter speed is not a problem for the AUTO ISO will increase. The more one pans, the less "BLUR". Do not follow in your eye piece many subjects, stay with one and fire 5-9 shots a second on a high speed card and move on. I shoot anywhere from 500-1000 shots a game with 50 solid keepers. Hope this helps..:)
I do have a question though - how did you manage to make your first post here a response to a FIVE YEAR OLD THREAD? I'm not trying to be mean - I am honestly intrigued how you got past 4 years of sports and hockey posts and landed on this one. I'm always amazed when zombie threads raise up from the ground by someone not one of the participants.
I have shot a few hockey games and did just OK. So, I would like to learn a little more and like to ask about the above two points.
1. Do you mean not to use dynamic AF? I read one article recently about shooting tennis and changing Dynamic to 21 points.
2. WB can be tough in hockey arenas, at least in my limited experience. Do you shoot a grey card and use that for post processing or adjust WB some other way in post processing?
Thanks, Phil
"You don't take a photograph, you make it." ~Ansel Adams
Phil
The only hockey I shoot is professional games (San Jose Sharks), where the lighting is actually pretty good for stadium lights. It's fairly bright and very even; and of course no cycling.
I shoot manual and meter off the players to get the correct exposure. Sure, the ice may get blown out a little, but would you rather have the players exposed well, or the ice? I've never found any semi-auto mode to work well, as this lets the camera choose the exposure. In a highly contrasty environment like a sports stadium--bright ice, moderate lighting on the players, and very dark fan sections-- the exposures vary all over the place. It's an editorial nightmare! I'll deal with some small spatial variability anyday over what the camera thinks is the proper exposure.
I just use a single AF point that is selectable using the multi-controller (that joy stick on the backs of Canon cameras). Sometimes I keep it on the center AF point; other times I bump it so that it's on the player's face. Just depends. The reason you shouldn't let the camera decide what AF point to use is that, again with a contrasty environment with lots of potential subjects, it'll often choose the wrong place to focus.
Lastly, if you're shooting in a poorly lit place with cycling lights, you're kinda screwed. I shoot our high school basketball games at a horrible gym: ISO 6400 and severe cycling that drastically alters both intensity and WB. I end up editing every single shot and they still don't look that good. No amount of custom WB will work for even a minority of the shots. I've never found a work-around for this problem.
Regarding WB, I just shoot RAW and deal with the WB in the post, always by eye. YMMV. I know people the use a grey card, but I've found it just as effective to do it by eye and make sure the skin tones are decent.
There is a workaround for cycling lights and or a poorly lit arena/gym. Use strobes or off camera flashes.
Ah yes, of course. I'm not a big fan of external lighting, but this is probably the only way to deal with this issue.
The only gym I ever shot in where this wasn't the case was a gymnastics gym where the lights were crazy far apart.
Otherwise, taking a custom WB shot with 1/60 shutter speed produced perfectly useable shots in gyms with cycling lights. not perfect mind you but extremely useable. Yes, you'll see color shifts on the walls or stands behind the action where the lights don't overlap but on the court, not an issue. But the key, to me, is that 1/60 shutter speed for average color temperature on the custom WB shot.
I will also say - any place using spotlights will be problematic (an MMA fight I shot was a prime example).