Highjacked Threads

Angelo · May 16, 2005

<<< NOTE: I am NOT trying to stir up trouble or make accusations towards any individuals >>>

Many of us dGrinners are amateurs of various levels looking to improve their craft and learn as much as possible about photography in all its stages.

We contemplate, set-up, compose, shoot, process and post our work here for input by a great bunch of friendly people who all offer advice.

Some of us are content to receive the ordinary "pat on the back" and others want real specific direction on how to improve our work.

There are a lot of members here and it's sometimes difficult to know the level of expertise an individual has who is commenting on your work. We know who most of the "pros" are and we have all developed closeness to certain people through our interaction here. We probably all have "sympaticos" who appreciate each other's style.

Others sometimes don't have much more experience but are strong-willed, opinionated people who enjoy participating in this review process; and everyone's opinion should be respected.

What I'm wondering about is how everyone feels about having a post of theirs "highjacked" (someone else's term, not mine) when they feel they know better than the original poster about how an image should have been processed, or cropped, or, whatever?

It seems to me if a member posts an image and asks for critique, they would learn more if comments were limited to just that; comments they could then act upon and try to improve themselves.

If after reading a comment, an original poster asked for an example or clarification of a critiquers point, well, then I think it's fair game. But I often see people respond to various posts by simply posting a "better" version, according to the reviewer.

Frankly I'm not real sure how I feel about this but I do know everytime I see this practice I bristle a bit and think; "that isn't fair".

Am I off-base or being too sensitive? Let's have a healthy, productive debate about it. Thanks.

jwear · May 16, 2005

Angelo with me it's ok I like the feed back good and bad and if someone takes one of my pics and does something then reposts [new word] .That's good with me

I do know what you are getting at tho but in my case I post for feedback and how it comes is fine with me .

Ann McRae · May 16, 2005

Angelo wrote:

<<< NOTE: I am NOT trying to stir up trouble or make accusations towards any individuals >>>

What I'm wondering about is how everyone feels about having a post of theirs "highjacked" (someone else's term, not mine) when they feel they know better than the original poster about how an image should have been processed, or cropped, or, whatever?

It seems to me if a member posts an image and asks for critique, they would learn more if comments were limited to just that; comments they could then act upon and try to improve themselves.

If after reading a comment, an original poster asked for an example or clarification of a critiquers point, well, then I think it's fair game. But I often see people respond to various posts by simply posting a "better" version, according to the reviewer.

Thanks.

Hi Angelo
First, when I think of the term 'hi jacked thread', I think of a whole new discussion starting, completely off the original topic. But what I understand you to be asking about here is people editing another photogs work, without permission. I have seen this topic debated on other forums and have seen real arguements break out. Personally, I think it is inappropriate to do so unless the poster has asked for specific editing help and given permission to do so. Simply reediting someones work without explaining the steps used is not helpful. Sometimes explaining the stpes without an example of the end result or the mid result is also not helpful.

That is my point of view, FWIW.

ann

Angelo · May 16, 2005

Ann McRae wrote:

Hi Angelo
First, when I think of the term 'hi jacked thread', I think of a whole new discussion starting, completely off the original topic. But what I understand you to be asking about here is people editing another photogs work, without permission. I have seen this topic debated on other forums and have seen real arguements break out. Personally, I think it is inappropriate to do so unless the poster has asked for specific editing help and given permission to do so. Simply reediting someones work without explaining the steps used is not helpful. Sometimes explaining the stpes without an example of the end result or the mid result is also not helpful.

That is my point of view, FWIW.

ann

Ann / Jeff

That's really what I'm getting at. Being coached is not a problem but I know I would learn more myself if I get to try the suggestions myself then simply find it already done for me by another.

Mitch · May 16, 2005

Hi Angelo,

If you are taking about the practice of downloading the picture re-working it then re-posting then I agree. 100% I do not think that a picture should be re-worked without the permission of the owner. I know those who do it feel that they are just trying to help.

A simple solution would be what other forums have done. By the rules of the forum pictures cannot be DL and re-worked unless so stated in the post. The funny thing is that if such a rule were put in place 90% of the pictures I would post would include permission. For the most part I am interested in how others might work the image.

Never heard it called "highjacked", but I am on your side. Unless of course you meant something else then maybe I have just "highjacked" your post.

MItch

Angelo · May 16, 2005

Mitch wrote:

Hi Angelo,

If you are taking about the practice of downloading the picture re-working it then re-posting then I agree. 100% I do not think that a picture should be re-worked without the permission of the owner. I know those who do it feel that they are just trying to help.

A simple solution would be what other forums have done. By the rules of the forum pictures cannot be DL and re-worked unless so stated in the post. The funny thing is that if such a rule were put in place 90% of the pictures I would post would include permission. For the most part I am interested in how others might work the image.

Never heard it called "highjacked", but I am on your side. Unless of course you meant something else then maybe I have just "highjacked" your post.

MItch

- no, that's exactly what I mean. We see it here quite often. I'm not opposed to help or having an image re-worked but personally I'd like to try myself first, based on the comments BEFORE someone else does it.

4labs · May 16, 2005

Angelo,
Personally I don't mind at all if my pics get hijacked. It helps me more when I see visually what a person is trying to show me when critquing my photo. I may not agree with their version but when I put something out I consider it fair game. I also have no problem Pm'ing photogs when I want an expert opinion and have had a great response when I do so. I wouldn't want to have too many "rules" it takes away the casual atmosphere that was created. I think you just have to learn to let some things slide . Just my opinion and if you don't want your pics hijacked than when it happens just politely tell the person not to and I am sure it won't happen again..

Eric

jwear · May 16, 2005

Angelo wrote:

- no, that's exactly what I mean. We see it here quite often. I'm not opposed to help or having an image re-worked but personally I'd like to try myself first, based on the comments BEFORE someone else does it.

I would not like a lots of rules here ,maybe I am still not clear .a direct ? my shots 3 in the rain sam did one

nik did one

now I could not be happier and my pictures look a lot --hole lot better with their work and one day i will be able to do that .Is this what you are talking about ???? Jeff

Angelo · May 16, 2005

4labs wrote:

Angelo,
Personally I don't mind at all if my pics get hijacked. It helps me more when I see visually what a person is trying to show me when critquing my photo. I may not agree with their version but when I put something out I consider it fair game. I also have no problem Pm'ing photogs when I want an expert opinion and have had a great response when I do so. I would want to have too many "rules" it takes away the casual atmosphere that was created. I think you just have to learn to let some things slide . Just my opinion and if you don't want your pics hijacked than when it happens just politely tell the person not to and I am sure it won't happen again..

Eric

Gosh I'm not advocating any "rules" just opening debate on a subject I considered interesting.
I too like input and direction from others. I wouldn't be here otherwise. But there is a fine line between a photographer's creative expression and his technical skill. By unilaterally changing an image to suit one's preferences, I believe a reviewer could be ignoring parts of the original intent.

dragon300zx · May 16, 2005

Angelo,

It depends if they are simply trying to show me what it is they are talking about I don't mind. But as others have said happened to them on other forums if that photo ends up in their portfolio then I have a problem. For the most part I think it is simply some peoples way of helping. I for one am not a person of many words when it comes to explaining things. I would much rather do it and have someone learn from watching me. Otherwise I have to write the steps down as I do them (or I ahve to close my eyes and visualize myself doing the task, which gets weird looks when your in public places).

4labs · May 16, 2005

Angelo wrote:

Gosh I'm not advocating any "rules" just opening debate on a subject I considered interesting.
I too like input and direction from others. I wouldn't be here otherwise. But there is a fine line between a photographer's creative expression and his technical skill. By unilaterally changing an image to suit one's preferences, I believe a reviewer could be ignoring parts of the original intent.

I understand where you are coming from and I guess that is why in end your own opinion counts the most and you just have to be thankful someone took the time to comment and repspectfully disagree if you don't like what they have to say or have done. It's an interesting topic I am curious what others have to say.

DavidTO · May 16, 2005

Angelo, I agree that we need to be sensitive to this issue, and that permission to rework an image should not be assumed.

I also know that a picture is worth a thousand words, and sometimes it's easier to show the end result, find out if that's what the person had in mind, and if so, then go back and explain how you got there.

Angelo · May 16, 2005

dragon300zx wrote:

Angelo,

It depends if they are simply trying to show me what it is they are talking about I don't mind. But as others have said happened to them on other forums if that photo ends up in their portfolio then I have a problem. For the most part I think it is simply some peoples way of helping. I for one am not a person of many words when it comes to explaining things. I would much rather do it and have someone learn from watching me. Otherwise I have to write the steps down as I do them (or I ahve to close my eyes and visualize myself doing the task, which gets weird looks when your in public places).

Angelo · May 16, 2005

DavidTO wrote:

Angelo, I agree that we need to be sensitive to this issue, and that permission to rework an image should not be assumed.

I also know that a picture is worth a thousand words, and sometimes it's easier to show the end result, find out if that's what the person had in mind, and if so, then go back and explain how you got there.

exactly the point I attempted to make... suggest what you think is wrong, allow the photographer to learn from the critique, attempt the appropriate edit, or ask to be shown how to do it.

DavidTO · May 16, 2005

Angelo wrote:

exactly the point I attempted to make... suggest what you think is wrong, allow the photographer to learn from the critique, attempt the appropriate edit, or ask to be shown how to do it.

Um, not exactly the point you were making.

I'm suggesting that sometimes showing is better than describing. If what you show is not what they want, then you move on. If it is, then you can explain how you got there. Try writing a detailed tutorial sometime, Angleo, it ain't easy. I know, because I've started to, and got too lazy. Just doing it is so much easier, and that way you get to see if you're barking up the right tree.

dragon300zx · May 16, 2005

Exactly What I was trying to say David.

wxwax · May 16, 2005

Angelo,

I agree with what I believe to be your central point, which is that as a matter of courtesy (and respecting copyright!) no-one should dowload and work another's image unless invited to do so.

I'm sure I've been guilty of it in the past. But since I'm not crazy about someone grabbing one of my shots uninvited, I try to not do it to others.

Angelo · May 16, 2005

DavidTO wrote:

Um, not exactly the point you were making.

I'm suggesting that sometimes showing is better than describing. If what you show is not what they want, then you move on. If it is, then you can explain how you got there. Try writing a detailed tutorial sometime, Angleo, it ain't easy. I know, because I've started to, and got too lazy. Just doing it is so much easier, and that way you get to see if you're barking up the right tree.

To clarify my point David: I agree a picture is worth a thousand words... and showing is easier than writing a tutorial. Returning to my original intent with this thread is to address the difference between being told by another dGrinner... e.g: "Hey nice capture but it might benefit from a bit more contrast..." or whatever the case may be and this: "Hey, nice capture but it needs more contrast, like this: (attached version by reviewer)

That second approach, which we see a lot of here, somewhat robs the photographer of the opportunity to learn how to improve his own work because at that point all he can do essentially is mimic what was already shown to him.

ginger_55 · May 16, 2005

Since that just happened to me recently, I do it, too. I can comment about the recent "show and tell" with my photograph.

It was instantly instructive, helpful and saved me alot of work. I tried it from the work angle, but if I had not had the altered photo right in front of me, I would not have had the same good result.

I guess some people hate it, and some people don't. I hate to be criticised, some people are even afraid to critique me, I think, I react, sometimes more explosively than is even begun to be warranted.

But someone helping me..............saves me work. I am all for work "savers". I don't always agree with the alteration. Just saw one on someone else's work, well, saw two, one I loved and the other I didn't agree with.

interesting how different, different people react to the same situation. It is not easy to criticise my work, or me, or mine, but give me directions in a non threatening, non bossy way, and I am game.

I would hate to see it stopped, but I also think that it is an "action" and actions can be stopped. This is a controversial one. But I like it. Usually. As long as I don't feel pushed to use the other person's style. It gives me another choice.

g

Angelo · May 16, 2005

ginger_55 wrote:

Since that just happened to me recently, I do it, too. I can comment about the recent "show and tell" with my photograph.

It was instantly instructive, helpful and saved me alot of work. I tried it from the work angle, but if I had not had the altered photo right in front of me, I would not have had the same good result.

I guess some people hate it, and some people don't. I hate to be criticised, some people are even afraid to critique me, I think, I react, sometimes more explosively than is even begun to be warranted.

But someone helping me..............saves me work. I am all for work "savers". I don't always agree with the alteration. Just saw one on someone else's work, well, saw two, one I loved and the other I didn't agree with.

interesting how different, different people react to the same situation. It is not easy to criticise my work, or me, or mine, but give me directions in a non threatening, non bossy way, and I am game.

I would hate to see it stopped, but I also think that it is an "action" and actions can be stopped. This is a controversial one. But I like it. Usually. As long as I don't feel pushed to use the other person's style. It gives me another choice.

g

good points G

I too appreciate input and direction but coming from someone who doesn't know PS (me!), even when I see an edited photo posted it means little to me because I don't use nor understand photoshop. I see a photo, sometimes better, sometimes not, but know nothing about how the editing was accomplished.

Dee · May 16, 2005

If you don't want people to download
your photos to demonstrate "improvements," why not state that in your signature?

Personally, I won't take the time to download a photo, practice with it, and then respond with the upload and the description of what I attempted to do and why, without the poster welcoming such intervention. And -- only if I think I can improve the photo.

I have better things to do with my time -- and believe me, it takes time to download, examine the photo, adjust it properly, rename the file, find the thread, post the photo and describe what was done -- especially if someone winds up not appreciating the time I took to do this for them to demonstrate a possible post process outcome for them. Just not worth it.

If someone asks, and I think I can contribute, then I will.

Now, that's different from a few posts where it's "play with this picture" (use it as a base to make a different photo out of it) and post the result, I had a lot of fun with one of these.

People have different learning styles, I'm a visual learner, I need to "see" the steps, not read about them.

If you prefer that someone say to you, you need to adjust your levels, curves, crop, etc. and you want to then work on the photo yourself, put that in your signature... new people coming on the board will not know your preferences unless you state them.

I *usually* don't post a photo until I'm happy with it, so I don't really welcome someone taking my photos and playing with them, but that's a personal thing for me. I've gone through a lot of the learning process for cropping, composition, and post processing, won lots of photos of the day contests, so I'm pretty secure in what I post. (Not to say I can't improve in any of these areas, however!)

On the other hand, Andy recently pointed out that Smugmug uses the srgb space and my Adobe 1998 color space photos were suffering from the conversion in my album. I knew something was going on but wasn't sure what it was. That was welcome information indeed.

When it comes to color space, I'm still learning, since I mainly only worked in CYMK. It's only recently I've been working in the RGB space and it's confusing to have one "expert" tell you to use Adobe RGB, and then to have your photos suddenly lose depth, color and contrast when posted in an album. Someone else told me Smugmug "strips" the color information from the photos to save space (true or not, my photos did change drastically). So I'm trying to learn what all this color RGB space is.

I suspect everyone who cares about photography is continually learning, even the "pros"! I've seen good photographers get even better, and I've seen some photographer who never seem to get any "better." Some people just want to share, some want to learn, some like to teach -- makes for an interesting forum for me.

So, I take it you're a "I'd rather do it myself" person? :-)

Good topic!

:

ginger_55 · May 16, 2005

Dee, you make some good points, too.

I just want to share this thought: Scott Kelby must have gone through some kind of learning curve, too, on the RGB thing. I understand he has a color space book coming out where he retracts, changes, corrects, whatever, his comments that everyone should immediately change to Adobe RGB. That had me messed up for a long time, too, until I read about it on a thread, here. Alot of people were messed up with that.

And, Angelo, that is an example of a real thread hijacking, I just changed the subject.

I didn't think about your good point re understanding what is going on when a photograph is changed. That is a very good point! So much here is on a learning curve. The jargon is often words that I don't understand.

I am going to understand what "chimping" means someday.

Now I suppose the problem would be, how to best share what one does understand.

I only play with others photos when I am bored. I am not much of a "helping type".

But sharing words like, you might want to "use curves on it a tad", they kind of leave me clueless. I am getting there, but the example I gave of someone helping me last week, that was about blur and color, a little easier to understand. Otherwise, I like a photo AND complete step by step instructions. I can spend hours trying to figure out how to "help" a photo when someone "criticizes" it. Often, I have no idea. I spent a week trying to get the facial color right on a kid once. I understand that kind of frustration.

I am just getting into layers. So a layer mask is a foreign word to me.

Etc.

hungry, ginger

Mitch · May 16, 2005

It's a simple matter of cutresy. You don't take someone elses work and make changes without permission.

There is another thread on this board. The post'er was asking for suggestions for improving an image. Before the thread really got started the owner posted again asking that no one downloads and re-works the image. Now I suppose that is one idea, if you don't want your image re-worked then state so in the post. Or maybe not post at all.

Now don't get me wrong. I for the most part have no problem with someone re-working my image. I am more than happy to learn from anyone that is willing to teach. There are some really good people around here. So much knowledge to draw from.

I just think we should respect others property.

Ok..I will now climb down from this high horse.

Mitch

bfjr · May 16, 2005

Ok 1st hand exp talking and recent mind You!!

I posted a few piccie a couple weeks back at Dprev. The next day I went and checked replies and low and behold someone had taken my image changed it and posted on his Gallery!! :wow

To say the least I went ballistic! Came here and asked for help, wham bamm there was Shay, Jeff, Sam etc. giving me guidance, basically telling me to Chill, good advice, thanks again

Now the point:
He meant no harm he just wanted to mess with my image :cool, but he didn't ask, ahhh there's the rub.

So I never have never will take someone else's work and mess with it unless they ask me, period...
And even if they do I may not, It's alot of work, like has been said, still trying to gey my own stuff looking spiffy

Ok my 2 done now, bye

GREAPER · May 16, 2005

Interesting.

Of course downloading someone elses shot, altering in and putting it in your gallery is WRONG. On the flip side, I have downloaded lots of people pictures to attempt fixes. They post a pic and ask for advice. Sometimes I will try what I am about to suggest, just to make sure it does what I think it will. I figure, no point in telling them to boost contrast or saturation or whatever, if it will just make the shot worse, so I try it first. If I think the result is better, I will usually just post the suggestion, delete the pic off my desktop and forget about it.

Sometimes, if they dont seem to understand what I am suggesting, I will post the altered version, then delete it.

I would never keep someone elses photo, what do I need someone elses photo that needs fixed for, I have enough of my own that need fixed.

I wont do it anymore. If I can't tell what needs to be done without playing with it, I will just skip it. That of course is the flipside to what you are discussing. Limiting the methods others can use to assist you or me, will limit the assistance we get.

I can live with that.

Steve Cavigliano · May 16, 2005

wxwax wrote:

Angelo,

I agree with what I believe to be your central point, which is that as a matter of courtesy (and respecting copyright!) no-one should dowload and work another's image unless invited to do so.

I'm sure I've been guilty of it in the past. But since I'm not crazy about someone grabbing one of my shots uninvited, I try to not do it to others.

Sid took the words right out of my mouth (or hands, as the case may be). Guilty, as charged

I don't do it often, but I've done it before. All I can do is plead temporary insanity :lol Maybe, not even temporary

My intent is never in question. I only want to help others get as much enjoyment as possible out of their shots. I'm not real good at post processing, but I usually have a good handle on the basics. But, I can see how this may upset the original poster. Like Sid, I will refrain from editing other's pics, unless invited to do so

:

Steve

Angelo · May 16, 2005

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

Guilty, as charged I don't do it often, but I've done it before...

:whip

KeithAlanK · May 17, 2005

On another couple of forums there's a member who can be depended upon to re-work your photo uninvited.
It's beyond sad because he ALWAYS makes it much worse.
Because of him I'm against the practice.
Hasn't happened to me yet, but I think I would only like it if the change was VERY GOOD and given in a sincerely friendly way.

ginger_55 · May 17, 2005

Steve Cavigliano wrote:

Sid took the words right out of my mouth (or hands, as the case may be). Guilty, as charged I don't do it often, but I've done it before. All I can do is plead temporary insanity :lol Maybe, not even temporary

My intent is never in question. I only want to help others get as much enjoyment as possible out of their shots. I'm not real good at post processing, but I usually have a good handle on the basics. But, I can see how this may upset the original poster. Like Sid, I will refrain from editing other's pics, unless invited to do so :

Steve

Yes, I will try to refrain, too. I have noticed that when I do certain things, the thread is kind of deserted then. Afterwards, I mean, like I have tainted it, or something.

I was thinking about last night, the working of someone else's photo. I think my main inclination is when I do think I can make it better and when it is a person. I don't have many people to work on, here. Particularly not teens and women, so if I see one to work on I get all excited. But if people liked my doing that, they would not then flee their threads.

I do other things that seem to cause the same reaction, but that is the subj here, and it has not been a good thing for me to do, though I have enjoyed doing it, thought I had something to share. I think what I was sharing may not have been a direction the person wanted to go, but it has been surprising how fast they run away.

ginger (I will promise to try my best not to touch your photos. And it is not that I am ruining people's photos, all I have are small copies that I make. The person's photo is still there and fine)

Sandy · May 17, 2005

Angelo, I understand where you are coming from, however since the challenge forum is geared to comment and critique I would not feel that my photo was being highjacked. The only reason for the reposting would be to show me a new technique or improvement. I appreciate the effort that goes into working on someone elses photo, although I may not agree with the changes. I would consider the photo highjacked if they claimed it as their own and posted it somewhere else.

davev · May 17, 2005

Well. I've been quiet long enough. Some people are good with words. Some
people can demonstrate far better than typing something out.

If someone posts a "How can I make this better" it's far easier for me to
rework the pic, than to give a in depth lesson on how to get there.

I teach welding for pipefitter apprentices. I can show things far better than
than I can preach about them. I realize that a brief explanation needs to
come with the pic, but as the old saying goes, a picture is worth a
thousand words.

For that matter, with a post like the one mentioned above, I would take it as
an invite to download it and repost. I've done it in the past. I will not in the
future. (here at least)

If I reworked anyone's photo when I wasn't supposed to. Sorry.

If I reworked anyone's photo and that person thought that I made it worse,
I wish you would have told me. Maybe I could have learned something on
that day.

If I see any more posts asking "how can I..." I will simply avoid them.

Which will leave me with "nice pic" and "Thanks" for most of my posts.

dave.

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