Sports Shooters Advice - Nikon D300 vs. D700

MDalby

All,

You have been VERY good to me on advice. I don't know if you can even answer this question for me or if this is something I have to determine on my own...

I went and took some photos at basketball practice this morning to try my luck with all of the new advice that I have received from you guys on using manual etc. I had a hard time getting the shutter speed that I wanted AND using my glass (which is good glass) AND having the right exposure on my histograms AND being happy with the noise. In order to get my histoograms right and my exposures right I had to drop down in my glass to the 50mm 1.4 and then I had no problems at all.

In a nut shell, I am wondering if I under bought on the body. I am having a little buyers remorse on the D300 and thinking that maybe I should have just sucked it up and gone with the D700. Now I have the problems of a depreciated D300 and the possibility of having to cough up the difference between the D300 and the D700.

The D300 was a stretch for me but I will find a way to go with the D700 if that is the real answer.

Sports is going to be 90% of my usage...

Thoughts?

nipprdog

MDalby wrote:

Sports is going to be 90% of my usage...

Thoughts?

If the majority of your sports is indoors, or outdoors under the lights, D700.

If the majority of your sports is outdoors, daytime, D300.

Edited, and corrected, after reading John's post.

jonh68

If sports is your main goal, then yes. I have found most sports to be indoors or at night under lights to accommodate working parents. For outside shots, the D700 will still be serviceable even for the crop factor.

donek

I shoot both a D300 and D700. I started shooting indoor sports with a D200 and 50mm f1.4. The iso 1600 and f1.8 setting were more than adequate for newsprint and I even sold some images to parents. As a gear nut, I once had a pro tell me to stop spending money on gear and get out and shoot, and shoot, and shoot. There really is no substitute for experience.

John68 preferes to shoot in a gym without extra light. As a result, his suggestion is the D700. I prefer to add light to my setting, either by bouncing a flash off the back wall or using strobes mounted in the bleachers. Both techniques produce very different looking images. The point is, until you develop a style preference or workflow preference, you don't have a good set of tools to make the decision which impacts that style in a positive way.

My D700 comes out of the bag more often than my D300, but for completely different reasons than some. I like the fact that it makes my 70-200 f2.8 a more usable range in a gym even though stopping down to f4 becomes necessary due to the reduced depth of field you get with an FX chip. The D700 coupled with my 28-120 lens produces stunning wide shots. Coupled with your 50mm f1.4, you get the equivalent of a 33mm on a DX body with even less depth of field than you currently get. All your lenses will produce different results than with your D300.

Given the fact that I shoot strobes, I can fairly easily get to f2.8 (DX) and iso 400, making a low noise camera body unneccesary. If you are short on money, I'd suggest getting a couple strobes and inexpensive triggers. Ultimately as you do other things with your photography, you're likely to find you want the strobes more than you want a low noise camera. A couple of SB-28s and cactus triggers are likely to set you back about $300. SB-800s and cactus triggers will prbably run $900 to $1000.

Stick with the gear you have and shoot a lot. Sorry to throw in a monkey wrench, but as they say "there are a million ways to skin a cat." People have been photographing indoor sports for years without the equipment we have today. Learning techniques is far more valuable than another piece of gear.

torags

I got a remote flash wire to allow me to aim the flash at an angle different to the lens for fill.

I'm going to use it at night dirt track where the light is terrible and from above. It should work at basketball bouncing off the foreground floor. It also allows changes in shooting sites.

Ooops.. I don't like my D700 for sports. Its rare I don't need the reach of DX. My DX cam is D90(not the best for sports - low fps).

jonh68

I don't like my D700 for sports.

That's a rare comment. I have found many users are happier with the D700 over other cameras besides the D3 in regards to sports because of the high ss that can be obtained with the high ISO/low noise performance.

Cygnus Studios

donek wrote:

People have been photographing indoor sports for years without the equipment we have today. Learning techniques is far more valuable than another piece of gear.

100% correct. Yes today's cameras make it a little easier for us, but far too often it is used as a crutch.
You mentioned that your glass was good. What lens are you using? I shot plenty of indoor sports with my D50 prior to making the leap to the D3.

torags

jonh68 wrote:

That's a rare comment. I have found many users are happier with the D700 over other cameras besides the D3 in regards to sports because of the high ss that can be obtained with the high ISO/low noise performance.

I have not had luck over ISO 1600 with my D700 (I crop) and the fx reach is too short for motorsports where you're behind fences. I use it when I can with A 300 2.8 and TC and I do like the 8fps with a grip. The DX image size option is not as good as a DX cam.

I would recommend the D300 to the OP. My .02

MDalby

Cygnus Studios wrote:

100% correct. Yes today's cameras make it a little easier for us, but far too often it is used as a crutch.
You mentioned that your glass was good. What lens are you using? I shot plenty of indoor sports with my D50 prior to making the leap to the D3.

I have only used my Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8D VR Lens or my Nikon 50mm f/1.4 AF D

In the past I have not been as tight on my shots as I need to be so I am trying to focus tighter so I think the Nikon 70-200mm f/2.8D VR lens would be optimal if I can get my SS fast enough.

I guess I am going to just need to use lighting. I have never seen anyone use lighting in the gyms and I am worried that I would be a distraction. I have looked all over on the web and I cannot find any photographer regulations for the Colorado high school athletic association (CHSAA) so I don't know if I would be breaking any guidelines.

MD

MDalby

donek wrote:

There really is no substitute for experience.

I prefer to add light to my setting, either by bouncing a flash off the back wall or using strobes mounted in the bleachers.

I'd suggest getting a couple strobes and inexpensive triggers. Ultimately as you do other things with your photography, you're likely to find you want the strobes more than you want a low noise camera. A couple of SB-28s and cactus triggers are likely to set you back about $300. SB-800s and cactus triggers will prbably run $900 to $1000.

Learning techniques is far more valuable than another piece of gear.

Donek,

Thank you for the great advice. This is what I was expecting as a most common response to my situation. How far away in the bleachers do you put the remote flashes? I would imagine each gym will be a little different. Do you just put the flash on a flash stand in the upper corners along the baseline?

Do you use the cactus triggers? Are you happy with the cactus triggers or should I use the radio poppers?

Is there a tutorial on the web that has directions on how to set up lighting in a standard high school gym? Shoudl i just bite the bullet and get two more SB-800s? Do I need SB-800s for the slaves or will the SB-28s suffice?

Thanks again for the help.

MD

MDalby

Wow, the Cactus Triggers are CHEAP.

Is this a setup that you guys recommend?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Phottix-PT-04-4-Channel-Flash-Trigger-with-3-Receivers_W0QQitemZ170291034715QQcmdZViewItemQQptZCamera_Flash_Accessories?hash=item170291034715&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50

Shane422

The Cactus triggers are similar to those Phottix triggers that you linked too. Cactus triggers are from the eBay seller Gadget Infinity. They work fairly well. I have used them with a SB600. But I think I would wait and go for the Radiopoppers JrX. They are only about $100 for a transmitter and receiver set, and are probably much more reliable.

But if you really want Cactus triggers, www.mpex.com stocks them in the US.

donek

MDalby wrote:

Donek,

Thank you for the great advice. This is what I was expecting as a most common response to my situation. How far away in the bleachers do you put the remote flashes? I would imagine each gym will be a little different. Do you just put the flash on a flash stand in the upper corners along the baseline?

Do you use the cactus triggers? Are you happy with the cactus triggers or should I use the radio poppers?

Is there a tutorial on the web that has directions on how to set up lighting in a standard high school gym? Shoudl i just bite the bullet and get two more SB-800s? Do I need SB-800s for the slaves or will the SB-28s suffice?

Thanks again for the help.

MD

Mark,

I didn't realize you were in Colorado. Parker is about 45 minutes from me. If you'd like to come to a game I shoot and see how I set things up, you'd be welcome to do so. You can e-mail me at smartin@donek.com or phone me at 303-261-0100.

I don't have any experience with the sb-28s. The sb-800s have a very rapid recylce time, allowing you to shoot 3 frames at 1/4power in burst mode before needing to recycle. I find it usefull to shoot short bursts in basketball. I do use a lead acid battery on each flash, but a home made setup for that is only about $35/flash.

I use the cactus triggers. My experience with the radio poppers consists of viewing 1/2 of their web site video, but I would have serious reservations about using them. The transmitter is triggered by a flash mounted to your camera. Use of the built in flash eliminates any burst capability. This means you need an SU-800 or SB-800 to fire your off camera flashes if you plan to shoot in burst. It looks like the radio poppers simply extend Nikon's CLS. In my experience, the use of CLS doubles the flashes recycle time, or reduces the number of times the flash can fire in burst as much as 50%. It simply consumes too much power for sports.

The cactus triggers support burst rates up to 6fps and do not require an additional flash to activate the trigger. It mounts directly to your hot shoe. If you want something that's a bit more refined, Alien Bees now makes radio triggers. Check them out too.

I mount my flashes at the ends of the bleachers on the railing and point them at the ceiling above the key. There is a tutorial on strobing a gym on the strobist web site. It's helpful, but leaves a lot to the imagination. I know I've posted a couple times on my setup. Try searching. It has all been an experiment this year, so I do keep changing things.

nipprdog

donek wrote:

I use the cactus triggers. My experience with the radio poppers consists of viewing 1/2 of their web site video, but I would have serious reservations about using them. The transmitter is triggered by a flash mounted to your camera. Use of the built in flash eliminates any burst capability. This means you need an SU-800 or SB-800 to fire your off camera flashes if you plan to shoot in burst. It looks like the radio poppers simply extend Nikon's CLS. In my experience, the use of CLS doubles the flashes recycle time, or reduces the number of times the flash can fire in burst as much as 50%. It simply consumes too much power for sports.

The cactus triggers support burst rates up to 6fps and do not require an additional flash to activate the trigger. It mounts directly to your hot shoe. If you want something that's a bit more refined, Alien Bees now makes radio triggers. Check them out too.

Here's the first of 4 videos on the Cactus triggers. He shows how he added an antenna, to boost the signal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5hTyVLYNZg&feature=related

MDalby

nipprdog wrote:

Here's the first of 4 videos on the Cactus triggers. He shows how he added an antenna, to boost the signal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5hTyVLYNZg&feature=related

Thank you for the reference on the video.

MD

Shane422

donek wrote:

I use the cactus triggers. My experience with the radio poppers consists of viewing 1/2 of their web site video, but I would have serious reservations about using them. The transmitter is triggered by a flash mounted to your camera. Use of the built in flash eliminates any burst capability. This means you need an SU-800 or SB-800 to fire your off camera flashes if you plan to shoot in burst. It looks like the radio poppers simply extend Nikon's CLS. In my experience, the use of CLS doubles the flashes recycle time, or reduces the number of times the flash can fire in burst as much as 50%. It simply consumes too much power for sports.

You might want to reread the Radiopopper site or watch the rest of the video to eliminate your "serious reservations".

There are a few versions. The JrX is the version I was recommending. It is merely a trigger just the same as the Cactus triggers, Pocket Wizards, Skyports, or Microsync. The PX setup is the version that translates Nikon's CLS system or Canon's wireless system to a radio signal. For the PX system you are correct, you need the SU-800 or the Canon equivalent.

And CLS doubling your recycle time...... Sounds a little odd, unless your strobe is fireing at 2X power in CLS. You are more likely seeing a delay caused by the extra time used to send the communications signals (preflashes) between each shot, not the recycle time. It really doesn't matter since I would think the athletes would whack you for using CLS anyways with all of the preflashing that goes on.